 |
| 
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/29/2007 11:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | Greg: God finally arrived at the creation of human beings, which was his goal all along. Unlike everything that preceded us, we were to be (and yet are to be) the rightful rulers of creation, administrating God’s loving providence “on earth as it is in heaven.” We were specially designed in the image of God and, I believe, we were free from the corrupting influence of the oppressed creation. It’s possible that with the creation of humans God formed a sort of beachhead (Eden) from which he planned to advance his Kingdom and ultimately bring an end to the warfare that had engulfed his creation. We were to partner with God to take back the earth. I believe this has never stopped being God’s plan.
But humans, like spirit agents, have free will, for love is impossible without it. And, unfortunately, like many spirit agents, we humans used our “say-so” to rebel against God and go our own way. We thus surrendered our dominion over to the very powers we were supposed to protect Eden from and acquire dominion over – at least as it concerned their influence on the earth.
And so it is that God’s goal of reigning with humans on the earth has had to take a much longer, more circuitous, and more painful route. The biblical narrative is a small peek at what this detoured route looks like. Ultimately, God’s union with humanity in Christ (which, I’m convinced, was at the center of his plan from the get-go) had to now become a “rescue operation” that involved him in the suffering of Calvary. And it is by means of this “rescue operation” of love that God in principle restored humanity, recovered the earth, and reconciled the entire creation.
Jeff: OK. So Greg's take is that the reason why suffering is being tolerated for so long is that God's purpose--that humans reign with holy dominion over the earth--has not been attained yet. On the other hand, the only way this can occur, per Greg, is by voluntary action on the part of humans. And yet, according to Greg, God can not foreknow free-will actions. So if we can't be certain that all will be saved--even when God goes to the lengths of tormenting people in age-long rehabilitation--how can we be certain that man will eventually choose to reign in voluntary holiness over the earth?
IOW, how can we be open-theists and hold to what Greg is saying? According to Greg, what are we to make of Jesus' talk of "that day and that hour" concerning his parousia? Was Jesus meaning that not even God knows the day since God can not predict the outcome of free choices which are necessary for God to deem that the creational project "is finished?"
Post Edited (jefscott) : 7/29/2007 11:17:11 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/29/2007 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | As to where 'foreknowledge' and/or 'time' got mentioned, it was upon THAT that I post this:
"Time is not space nor is it a dimension. Time is grace."
Where I was going with this is, that rather than the 'traditional' OV way of treating time as something outside of God... that time should be considered almost like something that is flexible to be stretched according to needs. Time has a meaning.
Rather than events being fitted into and packed into, or omited from a cubbyhole of time... time itself is a gift that makes possibilities possible.
Rather than think of God as shutout of knowledge and events popping up within time, surprising God... realize that even time is forknown by God.
To someone not up to speed with you on this, recall for them that "goodness" comes from God -- preserving transcendence but fully immanent. Time should be thought of in this way too.
(This is just a little aside on this thread--just because it came up.)
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 7/30/2007 8:18:46 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/29/2007 7:26 PM (GMT -6) | | | Starkman: I'm thinking that we'll need to put aside any ideas of UR from the perspective of everyone getting saved while alive.
Jeff: Right. But the consensus on this forum is that there is no guarantee that all will be saved precisely because there are no 100% guarantees with LFW. My point was this: If there is no guarantee that people will choose correctly when God is putting people through age-abiding rehabilitation, how can we be certain there will be a future state of near-universal contemporaneous conversion on earth? Doesn't LFW rule out such certainty even for God? And if so, what does it mean when Christ said that only the Father knows the day and hour of his coming if that coming is dependent on a certain amount of contemporaneous LFW conversions? IOW, I don't see how Greg's eschatology (which is tied to his theodicy) is consistent with open theism.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/31/2007 3:19 PM (GMT -6) | |
jefscott said...
Starkman: I'm thinking that we'll need to put aside any ideas of UR from the perspective of everyone getting saved while alive.
Jeff: Right. But the consensus on this forum is that there is no guarantee that all will be saved precisely because there are no 100% guarantees with LFW. My point was this: If there is no guarantee that people will choose correctly when God is putting people through age-abiding rehabilitation, how can we be certain there will be a future state of near-universal contemporaneous conversion on earth? Doesn't LFW rule out such certainty even for God? And if so, what does it mean when Christ said that only the Father knows the day and hour of his coming if that coming is dependent on a certain amount of contemporaneous LFW conversions? IOW, I don't see how Greg's eschatology (which is tied to his theodicy) is consistent with open theism.
I'm not up on what Greg believes about UR, but I don't see Greg having posited a "future state of near-universal contemporaneous conversion on earth," if that's what you are implying he believes will happen. I did, however, sense that Greg believes there will come a time when Christ will rule, with us, over this earth. But that doesn't have to entail UR, not, at least, in regard to your quote of Greg's comment. What am I missing?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/31/2007 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | Starkman: I'm not up on what Greg believes about UR, but I don't see Greg having posited a "future state of near-universal contemporaneous conversion on earth," if that's what you are implying he believes will happen. I did, however, sense that Greg believes there will come a time when Christ will rule, with us, over this earth. But that doesn't have to entail UR, not, at least, in regard to your quote of Greg's comment. What am I missing?
Jeff: I may be missing something. But let me show you why I think it. Greg says in his blog (note the emphasized text):
By this means, God finally arrived at the creation of human beings, which was his goal all along. Unlike everything that preceded us, we were to be (and yet are to be) the rightful rulers of creation, administrating God’s loving providence “on earth as it is in heaven.” We were specially designed in the image of God and, I believe, we were free from the corrupting influence of the oppressed creation. It’s possible that with the creation of humans God formed a sort of BEACHHEAD (Eden) from which he planned to advance his Kingdom and ultimately bring an end to the warfare that had engulfed his creation. We were to partner with God to take back the earth. I believe this has never stopped being God’s plan.
But humans, like spirit agents, have free will, for love is impossible without it. And, unfortunately, like many spirit agents, we humans used our “say-so” to rebel against God and go our own way. We thus surrendered our dominion over to the very powers we were supposed to protect Eden from and acquire dominion over – at least as it concerned their influence on the earth.
And so it is that God’s goal of reigning with humans on the earth has had to take a much longer, more circuitous, and more painful route. The biblical narrative is a small peek at what this detoured route looks like. Ultimately, God’s union with humanity in Christ (which, I’m convinced, was at the center of his plan from the get-go) had to now become a “rescue operation” that involved him in the suffering of Calvary. And it is by means of this “rescue operation” of love that God in principle restored humanity, recovered the earth, and reconciled THE ENTIRE CREATION.
If you're familiar with Greg's writings, he talks about how Adam and Eve were to be the parents of a race of viceregents. Now read this about postmillenialism from Greg's book, "Across the Spectrum" (emphasis is Greg's):
...Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened" (Matt. 13:33). The point of both teachings is that the kingdom of God begins in a small way, but gradually and subtly it grows until it eventually takes over the entire garden or lump of dough--namely, until it takes over the world. The defeatist notion that there is nothing Christians can do to stem the tide of corruption in the world denies the kingdom authority the Lord has given to Christians and undermines the church's motivation to advance the kingdom of God.
This central goal of God's activity throughout world history, from his election of the nation of Israel to his sending of his Son into the world, has been to reclaim the world and its people as his own. He establised humans as his viceregents over the world, but they tragically surrendered their authority to Satan. The Lord is in the process of defeating his archenemy, freeing his people, and thereby regaining the world.
Remember, Keith, Greg believes all this has to be done by LFW. But all the while, Greg tells us that God can't foreknow LFW choices. So how can it be known that this postmillenial consummation is going to be freely chosen by humans? Wasn't there a place where Christ said the Father knew the day and hour of his coming? Could the Father put a dead-line (the parousia) on a volitional consummation of Christ's kingdom?
Post Edited (jefscott) : 7/31/2007 8:36:14 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/1/2007 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | If Greg thinks the day and hour of the parousia refers to 70AD, then I think he can make that part work.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2007 7:59 PM (GMT -6) | | | The Armenian (not Arminian) tradition about Eden is very interesting.
Armenian Orthodox theologian Vigen Guroian:
"Yet Paradise, Ephrem insists, is not so far distant from us that we cannot approach it. Indeed, we draw nearer to it with each and every effort to make our own selves and the world around us beautiful. Beauty in this fallen world is like the sun hidden behind a cloud. Our ruined "eyes" see just the shadow of its brightness. When, however, we are transformed by our love for it, beauty illumines our whole being, much as on Mount Tabor the bright glory of God enveloped Peter, James, and John."
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/restoringthesenses/guroian-beautyinthegarden.shtml
.
Selected Writings of Vigen Guroian
from the chapter "On Leaving the Garden" of The Fragrance of God
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/restoringthesenses/guroian-adam.shtml
There is an ancient Armenian tale about what happened to Adam and Eve when they were driven from the Garden of Eden:
After Adam and Eve were beguiled by the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit of the Tree, God commanded his angels to remove them from the Garden, and to guard the paths to it with a fiery sword. And so Adam and his wife were banished from the Garden and its light and abundant life and entered a place of darkness and gloom. They remained there in misery for six days, without anything to eat and no shelter. They wept inconsolably over what they had lost and where they were sent.
But on the seventh day, God took pity on the couple. He sent an angel who removed them from the dark place and led them into this bright world. The messenger showed them trees from which they could eat and satisfy their hunger. And when Adam and Eve saw the light and felt the warmth of this world, they rejoiced with exceeding gladness, saying, "Even though this place cannot compare with the home we have lost and its light is not nearly as bright or its fruit half as sweet, nevertheless, we are no longer in the darkness and can go on living." So they were cheerful.
Adapted from The Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 8/1/2007 8:12:42 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:10 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|