http://www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?f=7&m=91532

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Hello there, Serial,

 

Could you please prove the two statements you made.

 

It seems you're trying to have your cake and eat it too by resorting to what you feel must be true about God's existence within the concept of time in order for God to be omniscient and omnipotent.

 

Clearly, the only reality you have to base any belief about God's existence is the very one you live in, and that reality not only does not make way for proof of the two statements you made, but it doesn't even make way for a reason to believe them in the first place.

 

Reality demonstrates to us that it's impossible for God to know everything about our future, which is exactly what would be were God able to "observe any point in the future or past," as you stated. God could never tell anyone what He knows because someone could come along and change things. No matter how God would try to get around it, there would be much that could never be settled; many things could be changed from what was said to be the future God knew. And God can't respond to this with, "Well, I knew you were going to make those changes' I've already seen it." because a person could simply ask God why He didn't tell what He saw then. It's very simple: we can never be put in the corner of a future exhaustively known because there's no particular time when nothing can be changed. Up to the very moment before a person chooses, things can get changed. That, as this reality demonstrates, makes it impossible for God to ever know, in any manner of being in or out of time, the future in its entirety.

 

Personally, I couldn't care less in trying to figure out if God is a-temporal, non-temporal, temporal or what have you. What I do feel is important to realize, however, is what our reality gives us, and that reality says that it's impossible in this world where freewill exists--it could have been different had there been little or no freewill thrown into the mix--to have God be in any concept of time that allows for him to see the future in its entirety. Just can't happen!

 

Thanks,

 

Starkman

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Corey: But you'd agree, wouldn't you, that what you're describing is not the ACTUAL future -- In the ACTUAL future God does indeed intervene. In other words, you are claiming that God knows what WOULD happen ("if God himself were not to intervene"). But, how can God OBSERVE (directly prehend) something that is not ACTUAL? Seems metaphysically impossible.

Yo Serial,

 

SF: God is simply observing decisions free creatures make. It isn't really any different than you "observing" (remembering) what you had for lunch yesterday. Say you chose tunafish. Anytime before that point you could have changed your mind. What you are remembering is the choice you ultimately made. It wasn't any less free because you have observed it.
Starkman: Well, since I can't observe what I had for lunch yesterday, for God to be able to observe what I will have for lunch when I haven't even yet decided if I'm going to eat lunch (in, say, three years), is not only quite different than what I can do, but I'd like to know exactly how God could know this information! How does one know what someone will do when that someone doesn't have to do that particular something God "knows" they will do? Where's the evidence for this kind of foreknowledge?

 

Further, I most certainly cannot observe something I will do that I have not yet done. I can, however, "remember" the lunch I had. That's a whole different game, though.

 

SF: Choices aren't any less free because they are observed.

Starkman: That's true, but it's only true when those choices are being observed as they are being made, not before they are made. That I have the ability to choose to do differently at any time, right up to the very event itself, precludes any attempt by anyone, including God, from knowing in most (but not all) situations what I will do until I do it, or until darned close to when I do it.

SF: According to Serial Foreknowledge, the future that God is observing is the future that will play out if God himself were not to intervene. The events that play out will only play out if God does nothing.
Starkman: God can't possibly know absolutely what exactly will pan out in every situation that will arise. The availability of freewill choice makes this impossible. There can be no "this will happen, then this, then that, then this..." when at any given time anyone can choose from any numerous amounts of choices. In a world where freewill exists (where numerous choices can be made), God can only know what might happen, what is possible, but He can never know exactly what will happen.

 

Further, as it regards your theory of His intervention, He would have to know from eternity past what He Himself will alreadly have done in the future in everything that will ever be. In other words, Every thought, word and deed that God will commit in all the future is also part of what He must know (if we are to stay consistent with your theory), as well as what He must know about everything else. So from eternity, everything is foreknown including everything God will ever do. That doesn't sound too cool, if you ask me! And if any of the future can go differently than How God foreknew it, then God doesn't have exhaustively settled foreknowledge.

 

 

SF: As far as proving those statements, Serial Foreknowledge attempts to create a logically consistent model maximizing God's omniscience such that he knows every fact about his universe for all time and maximizing human free will. So I am not so much trying to prove God can observe all time, but rather taking that as an assumption.

Starkman: An assumption won't do here, SF. You're going to have to come up with a bit more evidence of your model or your theory is just one more out there for grabs. I don't mean that disrespectully, but that's what it is. Further, your assumptions are built around protecting the definition of omniscience in it's classical meaning (God knows absolutely everything...EVERYTHING), which isn't necessary (and is quite destructive to who and what God is).

 

Omniscience must only mean that God knows all truths and that He does not believe anything that is false. Trying to force omniscience to mean that God knows absolutely everything can make for a pretty strange God! For instance, does God know what it's like to be married? Does God know what it's like to not be God for a day? Does God know what it's like to create things so big, heavy and cumbersome that even He can't manage them? Does God know what it's like to be evil in the same way Satan is evil?

 

There's a ton of things God doesn't know and cannot do (thank heavens!), and He's not the least bit bothered by it either. Those things He doesn't know or cannot do have nothing to do with defining who and what God is. He's quite capable of being God without being able to know (from first-hand experience) what it's like to be evil or not being able to make rocks so big that He cannot pick them up.

 

As far as how God exists, there simply cannot exist any evidence demonstrating that God's knowledge of the future is exhaustive with regard to every choice every human will ever make. It's just not there. Why? Because the reality in which we live makes it impossible for freewill and foreknowledge of the kind you espouse to exist at the same time. Yes, God could have made a world where everything is foreknown, but not if freewill is in that world, as it is in ours. The most God can know is all the possibilities.

 

A simple demonstration of what I am saying: God tells you what is supposedly your future (we're talking details!) as it will take place in two hours from now. Problem: you can choose to do some, but not all, things differently than what you were told. It's that simple. God can't respond by telling you that He already knew you would do those changes, because you could then ask why He didn't He tell you about those changes you would do if He foreknows everything?

 

See, no matter what God says you will do (again, in most but not all) situations, you can choose, right up to the event itself, to do differently. That's freewill! Simply saying that God can just keep quiet about all He knows does not remove the truth of the point -  that He still can't know what you will do in every situation. That's because it's not God keeping silent that affords Him total foreknowledge. Rather, it's the nature of freewill that makes total foreknowledge impossble in the first place.

 

Thanks much,

 

Starkman

 

Jeff: But why use that as a justification for promoting different weirdness? What is problematic scripturally or philosophically with Alan Rhoda's "model" to you?

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Leaving the academic aspect of this discussion to others, I just want to go over your last post.

 

I said, God can't possibly know absolutely what exactly will pan out in every situation that will arise, and you responded by saying, No, but he does know those situations that will actually come to pass. That's exactly what I said He can't know! Oh, He can know them as possibilities, but it is absolutely impossible for God to know exactly what particular situations (down to every last sneeze) will actualized, because of our freewill. You then went on to just make more assumptions of the same nature with absolutely no evidence, whatsoever, to support your perspective.

 

In response to my statement that God would have to know everything He will ever think, say or do (from eternity past), you simply make another assumption: God is outside of time. Well, first, where's your evidence? I mean, without something to bring forth and present as evidence of God being outside of time, it is hardly the case, Serial, that your model can make sense. If all it took to make sense was come up with a theory, we'd all be in a world of hurt. In this case (your view), not only does it not make sense, but it contradicts everything we understand about reality, the only reality we know exists.

 

Finally, you didn't address my example of the Lord telling you your future with exact details - how it this could even be possible, and how it is you couldn't change things? It makes no difference what perspective we hold about how God exists or doesn't exist in time. Our reality brings an end the discussion about God having exhaustive foreknowledge about all of history playing out before it's even created or happened. It isn't God's reality that makes this possible; it is our reality that makes this impossible!

 

Thanks much,

 

Starkman 

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