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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 9/8/2007 7:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | This was a post I made on a different thread on the topic of Open Theology. What do you guys think?
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The Bible CLEARLY teaches the foreknowledge of God! God foreknows ALL future certainties as certain and God foreknows ALL future possibilities as possible.
Not everything is predetermined. Anything that is determined is certain, anything that is not yet determined but is open is possible. God foreknows everything that is now certain or determined and God foreknows everything that is now open or possible.
And God is Omniscient! God knows all that can be known. Anything that is an object of knowledge is known by Omniscience. And as soon as anything new becomes an object of knowledge, it is known to Omniscience. God always knows everything that there is to know. Anything that is certain to occur God foreknows as certain. And anything that is possible and may or may not occur, God foreknows as possible.
Before I had ever read any book on Open Theology, I was convinced that the bible teaches that the future is at least partly open because of Jonah chapter 3. Then I examined multiple other passages that taught that the future was at least partly open like Jeremiah 18. I realized that I couldn't argue with the bible!
To say that the future is partly open is to say that there are contingencies (because of freewill) and that not everything done in history was a certainty. And the bible clearly teaches the contingency of human action, Jeremiah 18 is a perfect example of that. Not everything is certain or predetermined, but we ourselves are self-determining individuals with freewill with the power of contingent choice!
But a topic like this requires much studying. I recommend reading the scriptures on it and also reading what Open Theologians actually say about it themselves.
I recommend:
- God of the Possible by Gregory Boyd
Gregory Boyd is a modern Baptist Pastor, Professor, and Author. He has a PHD from Princeton I believe.
- The Foreknowledge of God by Gordon Olson
- The Omniscience of God by Gordon Olson
Gordon Olson used to give theological lectures as Last Days Ministries, Agape Force, and YWAM. He was considered the "Grand Father" of these ministries.
- Cosmic Chess by Winkie Pratney
Winkie Pratney has been speaking to youth for 30 years. He is a well known author on the topic of revival and theology.
- Divine Nescience of Future Contingencies a Necessity by L D McCabe
- The Foreknowledge of God, and Cognate Themes in Theologyand Philosophy," by L D McCabe
McCabe was a Methodist Theologian in the 18th Century, a professor of both philosophy and theology.
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Here is the appendix of one of Gordon Olson's books on this topic.
Appendix 1 shows that the future is PARTLY OPEN
Appendix 2 shows that the future is PARTLY DETERMINED
And of coarse, what is open is foreknown as possible and what is determined is foreknown as certain.
FROM GORDON OLSON:
APPENDIX 1. SCRIPTURE PASSAGES THAT DO NOT
SUPPORT ABSOLUTE FOREKNOWLEDGE
Passages of Scripture requiring a DENIAL of the supposed fact, that all the future acts of God and
man are now known to God, and have been so from eternal ages past:
Genesis Psalms
2:17 (1:5; 5:5) 14:2 (53:2)
6:5-7 (1:31) 78:21-22, 58-61
18:20-21, 22-33 106:23, 44-45
22:1, 12
Exodus
16:4
32:7-14, 30-35
33:5
Numbers
11:1
14:11-24, 27-35
16:20-35, 44-48
Deuteronomy
8:2
9:13-14, 18-19, 20, 25-29
(10:10)
13:1-3
Judges
2:18, 20-22 (3:4)
10:13-16
I Samuel
2:30 (3:12-14)
13:13-14
15:11, 23, 26, 35
(28:18; 8:4-9, 22; 12:13-19)
II Samuel
7:10-11
12:22 (14)
24:12-16 (1), 25
I Kings
9:3, 4-9
11:11-13
21:27-29 (21-22)
II Kings
20:1-7
23:26-27 (I Kings 9:3)
I Chronicles
17:9-10
21:7-14, 15 (1)(II Sam. 24:1)
II Chronicles
7:16
12:5-8, 32:31
Job
2:3
41
Isaiah 5:3-7
38:1-5 (II Kings 20:1-7)
Jeremiah
3:6-8
18:7-10
26:2-3, 4-6, 12-13, 18-19
Ezekiel
12: 1-3
20:8-9, 13-14, 15-17, 21-22
22:30
24:14
Hosea
8:5
Joel
2:12-14
Amos
5:14-15, 7:1-3, 4-6
Jonah
1:2
3:2, 4-10
4:2
Zechariah
8:14-15
Matthew
10:2-4 (Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16;
(see previous discussion concerning Judas)
19:28
Mark
13:32 (Mt. 24:36; Acts 1:7; I Cor. 11:3)
Acts
15:7
Revelation
3:5
17:8 (13:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27)
22:18-19
APPENDIX 2. SCRIPTURE PASSAGES THAT
SUPPORT ABSOLUTE FOREKNOWLEDGE
The best passages of Scripture that can be found to SUPPORT the doctrine of the absolute foreknowledge of God, realizing that the many prophecies are merely revelations of what God has
determined to bring to pass in His guidance of world affairs, are as follows:
Genesis 6:64, 70-71
15:13-15 12:32-34
16:12 13:18-19, 21, 26
17:20 17:12
25:23 19:24, 28, 36, 37
Numbers 21:18-19
23:19
Deuteronomy
31:16-21,
29 (21, 27)
I Samuel
15:29
I Kings
13:2 (II Kings 22:1; 23:15-16)
Psalms
22:16, 18
69:21
Isaiah
44:28-45:7
46:9-11
52:13-15
53:1-12
Jeremiah
1:5
25:11, 12
29:10-14
Zechariah
12:10
Malachi
3:6
Matthew
16:21
20:17-19
21:1-5
24:1-25:46
26:31, 34
27:9
Mark
9:31
14:13-16
Luke
24:25-27, 44-47
John
HOME PAGE 44
Acts
2:23
13:29
Romans
8:28-30
11:2
I Corinthians
2:7
Galatians
3:8
Ephesians
1:3-5, 11
3:11
II Thessalonians
2:3-4, 13-14
I Timothy
4:1-3
II Timothy
1:9-10
I Peter
1:1-2, 20
Revelation
1:1,7
2:10
4:1
6:11
7:4-8, 9, 14
9:20-21 (16:9, 11)
11:2-12, 13
12:6, 7-9
13:1-7, 8, 11-18
14:20
17:7, 8, 12
19:19-21
20:1-3, 7-10
22:6
This would make for a great bible study on the NATURE of the future.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 9/9/2007 9:45 PM (GMT -6) | |
jessemorrell said...
And God is Omniscient! God knows all that can be known. Anything that is an object of knowledge is known by Omniscience. And as soon as anything new becomes an object of knowledge, it is known to Omniscience. God always knows everything that there is to know. Anything that is certain to occur God foreknows as certain. And anything that is possible and may or may not occur, God foreknows as possible.
In the past, I used to say the same thing, but when it comes to omniscience, we really have to be careful about how we word things because there are soooooo many people who are quick to misunderstand our position and then say, "but you in fact said X!"
Regarding the part I highlighted here is something that we ought to be careful to NOT say. Alan (my husband) has corrected me on numerous occasions regarding this statement.
Here's why it's so important: the statement can be interpreted to mean that there exists truths that are not knowable; therefore, there exist truths that even God doesn't know. This isn't a position all OT's hold -- this is definitely not a position that many here hold. I think it's better to say simply this: "God knows all truths."
To read about the distinctions within Open Theism, Alan wrote a philosophical paper on that topic. http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers.htm Click on "Generic Open Theism and Some Variants Thereof"
The other paper that Alan, Greg, and Tom wrote can also be found on Alan's site. Click on "Open Theism, Omniscience, and the Nature of the Future"
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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 9/12/2007 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Jesse: God knows all of reality as it is, what is settled God knows as settled and what is open God knows as open.
VFG (Heather, btw): Yeah, exactly. I was talking with Alan last night about this, and he agreed: "God knows reality exhaustively."
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Gregory Boyd briefly explains it this way in his book "God of the Possible", that God knows everything as it is. Boyd says that the future is partly settled and God must know it as such and the future is partly open and God must know it as such. I think that is a good way to put it.
I know that there are other good books on open theism, but not sure what they are called and who wrote them. Can anyone recommend any or give me a list of all the writings that are available?
I have read McCabe, Olson, Boyd, and Pratney on Open Theism, but not any others. What other good authors have written on the subject?
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 9/12/2007 11:18 PM (GMT -6) | | God knows we have the power of contingency and therefore the future is partly open:
Jeremiah 18:710 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Jesus taught that the future was partly open and that certain events were contingent:
Mt 26:53 - "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"
Did not the prophet, who illustrated bondage to Paul using a belt, show that he believed the future was partly open when he persuaded with Paul not to go to Jerusalem? Acts 21:11-12
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/13/2007 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | "Omniscience & Contingencies"
That pair does not sum up all the matters at issue. Our free will makes appropriate consideration of more than two polls and a continuum. More axis are needed to think about this.
John of Damascus had some very good and useful things to say about it all. Note the section headings...
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/exact_freewill.aspx
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 9/13/2007 4:30:35 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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