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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/26/2007 6:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 9/28/2007 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | |
Akira Takahashi said...
I'm rather new to this viewpoint, but I always wondered why, if God knew the future, he'd let someone be born whom he knew would go to Hell. God created all people, so how can he love everyone when he creates someone who will be damned? I have a brother who's a strong atheist, and who is maybe toying with Wiccan beliefs. I like to believe that if I keep praying and talking with him, then one day he'll change and come to Christ. I couldn't make myself believe that God intends him to suffer eternally, and was very thankful when I discovered that there are people out there who don't believe that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future.
I was wondering if anyone can clear up some common misconceptions about this view and explain why you're an Open Theist. The Open View doesn't necessarily solve the matter of predestination. God could still determine (Calvinistically) that some people will go to heaven and some won't, and still not know everything everybody will think, say and do in the future. This just doesn't ring true to Scripture, however. God seems to walk hand in hand with us. That is, He seems to watch part of the future unfold the way it will (not determined) as it unfolds. And in all of this, there is the constant plea to walk with God, to make the choice to serve Him. This all seems redundant if the most important part of anyone's future is already determined: whether they will go to heaven or not.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/29/2007 1:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Akira: I'm rather new to this viewpoint, but I always wondered why, if God knew the future, he'd let someone be born whom he knew would go to Hell.
Tom: The Calvinist will typically say God created some for hell. So his knowing they're going to hell follows naturally. That's what God wants for them. But the Arminian will typically say God knows it but doesn't will it. For a lot of reasons I find that untenable. It seems to me that what God foreknows (with respect to whether somebody ends up in hell or not) is that they MIGHT and MIGHT NOT end up there.
Akira: God created all people, so how can he love everyone when he creates someone who will be damned?
Tom: Exactly.
Akira: I have a brother who's a strong atheist, and who is maybe toying with Wiccan beliefs. I like to believe that if I keep praying and talking with him, then one day he'll change and come to Christ.
Tom: Exactly.
Akira: I couldn't make myself believe that God intends him to suffer eternally...
Tom: Nor could I, but some people manage to believe it.
Akira: ...and was very thankful when I discovered that there are people out there who don't believe that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future.
Tom: He's got exhaustive foreknowledge (he knows what will, won't, and what might/might not occur). What's not the case is that his foreknowledge is exhaustively "settled," that what God foreknows is limited to his knowing what WILL or WILL NOT occur.
Akira: However, it seems that a lot of people consider Open Theism to be heresy.
Tom: They'll always be there. Get used to it.
Tom
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Akira Takahashi
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Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 10/8/2007 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | | I wonder if anyone consider Calvin to be a heretic during his time? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 10/10/2007 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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J.N.Darby
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 124
| Posted 10/20/2007 1:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Akira Takahashi said...I'm rather new to this viewpoint, but I always wondered why, if God knew the future, he'd let someone be born whom he knew would go to Hell. God created all people, so how can he love everyone when he creates someone who will be damned? I have a brother who's a strong atheist, and who is maybe toying with Wiccan beliefs. I like to believe that if I keep praying and talking with him, then one day he'll change and come to Christ. I couldn't make myself believe that God intends him to suffer eternally, and was very thankful when I discovered that there are people out there who don't believe that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future. However, it seems that a lot of people consider Open Theism to be heresy, and here's one site in particular that has objections to it: http://www.ondoctrine.com/20openth.htmI was wondering if anyone can clear up some common misconceptions about this view and explain why you're an Open Theist.
Hi Akira  Welcome to the board.
Perhaps you haven't encountered this yet, but I've learned that nearly every doctrine, nearly every perspective within the sum of Christendom, is considered heretical or heterodox by one group or another. Baptists consider Catholics heretics, and vice versa. Calvinists consider Arminians heretics, and vice versa. Postmillenialists consider Premillenialists heretical, Preterists consider Futurists heretical, Covenant theology considers Dispensationalism heretical, and all vice versa. (These examples are stereotypes; not everyone in group A considers group B heretical, and vice versa). The list goes on and on, and despite the fact that each position can offer strong biblical and philosophical support for its ideas. Knowing this, it doesn't bother me in the least that the Open View is considered heretical by some (or many); it has strong biblical and philosophical support, as do the opposing views. If I affirmed some position contrary to the Open View, I would still be considered heretical by someone or some group or another: I'm a baptist, and I affirm premillennial-futurism and dispensationalism, and I consider myself part of the "emerging church" movement, and highly sympathetic to the "Emergent Church" subgroup; any one of these would have been enough to get me burned at the stake at some point in Christian history For my part, I try not to consider as "heretical" viewpoints I disagree with unless they stand against the Nicene Creed, and I try to recognize the difference between what is "heretical" (divisive) and what is "heterodox" (a minority view that differs from a mainstream/majority view). In my understanding, a Christian can be "orthodox" (doctrinally-correct) and yet be "heretical" (divisive because of an uncharitable spirit).
As you've probably noticed, some of the regulars here do not support the Open View. And you've probably noticed that some interpret the Open View in such a way that it does not resolve the question of whether God actively or passively predestines some to heaven and some to hell. My own understanding of the Open View is drawn primarily from the writings of Gregory Boyd, in particular his book "Satan and the Problem of Evil", and supplemented by his books "Is God to Blame" and "The God of the Possible". If you haven't read these yet, I would encourage you to do so, and if you can only choose one, read "Satan and the Problem of Evil". His understanding of the Open View is intricately woven with Arminianism and the Christus Victor understanding of Christ's atonement.
And, yes, Calvin was considered a heretic during his lifetime, in particular by the Roman Catholic Church; in my reading of church history, I recall that some Protestants and Independents considered him a heretic, but I don't recall the details of who or why.
Concerning your brother, there are a few books I'd like to recommend, which I hope and pray you'll find helpful. Rob Bell has a couple of books which I have found to be very simple yet profound introductions to Christianity that communicate the heart of Christ and His Gospel in a way that both Christians and non-Christians can easily understand. The titles are "Velvet Elvis" and "Sex God" (yes, I know the titles are weird and provocative, but that's just Bell's writing style; read them and you'll see the reasons for the titles Another one for you to read would be "More Ready than You Know" by Brian McLaren; it's about effectively communicating the heart of Christ and His Gospel through loving action and compassionate dialogue.
If you read any of the books I've mentioned, please let me know what you think of them
The most common misconception of the Open View is the charge that it says "God can't know the future". The way Boyd actually explains it is that God omnisciently knows a future that is not yet set; the future is open, including our future choices, and this is how God knows it. But many people, Christian and non-Christian, stand upon an unchallenged presupposition that says that omniscience necessarily entails exhaustive-definite-foreknowledge and (thus) a closed future.
The reason I'm an open theist is because I've been significantly more impressed by the biblical and philosophical arguments in favor it, than by those against it or in favor of opposing views. I consider myself a 5-point Arminian, and I accept the Open View as a biblically-valid way of understanding Arminian theology. | | Back to Top | | |
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Akira Takahashi
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 10/26/2007 10:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, Ricco, for your reply! I'll definately be checking those books out. I'll probably have to check eBay or Amazon, right?
It's interesting that Calvin was considered a heretic, yet today he is considered to have been a gospel guru!
There's lots more I'd like to write, but I'm not entirely available at the moment. Just wanted to thank you for your reply and for your prayers. | | Back to Top | | |
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