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PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/29/2008 4:30 PM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel said...
Zack, when you mentioned "compatabilists" (I'm not familiar with the term.) were you refering to a subset of OpenTheists, or a subset of those "others" that I mentioned?

Thanks for your reply.

Here is a LINK to a good definition of "compatabilist." (It's a good article on Augustine.)

http://iustificare.blogspot.com/2006/07/augustine-on-grace-and-freewill.html

What I mean by compatibilistic freedom is "any conception of human freedom that is compatible with unconditional election and infallible grace." Libertarian freedom conversely, is "any conception of human freedom that denies unconditional election and infallible grace." Not all compatiblists use the same means to arrive at a compatibilistic conclusion (same with libertarians).

(o)

jessemorrell
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77

Posted 5/29/2008 4:32 PM (GMT -6)

Chaz said...

Jesse I'm not sure that you understand the concept of knowledge;

What is knowledge? I will give my definition. Knowledge is perceiving or knowing objective reality. Knowledge is knowing things as they are.

In this discussion, God knows that man has a free will, God knows that man's choices are open and contingent, etc.

If God didn't know that the future was open, when in fact it is open, God would no longer be omniscient.

God, being omniscient, must know reality as it is.

And since man has a free will, God knows this. And since man's free will makes his future open, God knows this as well.

"We have seen that God is omniscient, that is, that he necessarily and eternally knows whatever is, or can be, an object of knowledge." Charles Finney

The whole argument of Open Theism is that the outcome of a free will choice, or the future existence of a contingent event, is not and cannot be an object of knowledge as far as certainty is concerned. It can only be an object of knowledge as far as possibilities is concerned.

And since God is omniscient, knowing all that can be known, possessing knowledge of all objects of knowledge, God must know that the future is open because of the contingent free choices of Himself and other moral agents.

For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell

www.OpenAirOutreach.com

www.LibraryofTheology.com

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/29/2008 4:43 PM (GMT -6)

Both true:

1. "God knew that they might or might not sin, since God knew they had a free will."

2. God foreknew all.

That means this:

6. God creates everything good.
8. Evil comes from creatures.
9. Evil's origin is creaturely choice.
10. God wills that there be evil.
11. God hates and loves evildoers.
12.. God cannot create only those who are good.
13. Human beings have been evil from the beginning.
14. Human beings are born into a corrupted world.
15. Human beings are a complex of good and evil.
18. God is the Lord of good and evil.
19. God uses evil for good.
20. God chastens evildoers for salvation.
22. Christ pays the debt to redeem evildoers.
24. Evil will be separated from good at the end.
25. Evil is revealed to be everlasting.
26. God's judgment of evil is his mercy on all.
27. God will be all and in all through Christ

(Lots to consider.)

(o)

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