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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 4/2/2008 10:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ok. I know that there's a large number of Christians who are not Open Theists, but are also not Calvinists. I want to challenge this.
Here are my questions for those who are neither Open Theists nor Calvinist.
QUESTION 1. If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin, and God created them anyways, doesn't that mean that God created them to sin? Doesn't it mean God didn't create them to have a happy, holy relationship with Him?
The Open Theist says that God didn't know it would surely happen, but did know that it was possible. The Calvinist says that God not only knew it, but predestined it (according to their view of Sovereignty).
QUESTION 2. If God knows an individual will live a life of sin and rebellion, and go to hell in the end, and God creates them anyways, doesn't that mean that God created them to sin and go to hell? Doesn't it mean God didn't create them to have a happy, holy relationship with Him?
The Open Theists says that their eternal destiny was open, they have free will. The Calvinist says God predestined them for hell, creating them to sin and go to hell (according to their view of Sovereignty, Election, and Predestination).
But how does a non-Open Theist, non-Calvinist answer these questions?
It seems to me that a person would have to either be an open theist or be a Calvinist.
A THIRD ALTERNATIVE?
I guess you could say that there is a third option. You could say that if God foreknew they would sin, and foreknew they would go to hell, that God didn't really have the ability not to create them, since if He didn't create them then His eternal foreknowledge was wrong. So God was just a helpless observer because of His foreknowledge, and didn't have the ability to change what He foresaw, even if He wanted to. (In this case eternal foreknowledge really limits God and takes away His free will and omnipotence)
The questions themselves, "If God foreknew...why would He create them?" are questions that themselves presuppose that God's foreknowledge is of avoidable possibilities, and not unavoidable fixities or inevitable certainties. If God could avoid what He foresaw, then what He foresaw must have been a possibility since it was avoidable, He must not have foreseen it as a certainty if He can change it. If God can change the future, the future must be open, consisting in alternative possibilities.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
www.OpenAirOutreach.com
www.LibraryofTheology.com | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2008 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | | QUESTION 1. If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin, and God created them anyways, doesn't that mean that God created them to sin?
a ReSpOnSe: No. God created them for exactly what Christ demonstrates that we were created for. He created us good; but we fell. And the image we were created 'after' is the second Adam--who is the Christ.
a ReSpOnSe: It should be noted that God created us ANYWAYS, even knowing that we would sin. He predestined HIMSELF to die on the Cross for our sins!
QUESTION 2. If God knows an individual will live a life of sin and rebellion, and go to hell in the end, and God creates them anyways, doesn't that mean that God created them to sin and go to hell?
a ReSpOnSe: No, it does not mean that. God loves us SO MUCH that he created us anyways, and planned to take the ''punishment" of our sins upon HIMSELF. God could have not created those (all of us) who were almost inevitably so weak that we would sin (We never HAVE to sin.), but God did not do that; which tells us something about God's love.
2-B. Doesn't it mean God didn't create them to have a happy, holy relationship with Him?
a ReSpOnSe: No.
The Open Theists says that their eternal destiny was open, they have free will.
a ReSpOnSe: Others say this too.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/3/2008 8:50 PM (GMT -6) | |
Similtude said...
(divine fore-knowledge with free-will)
or they know something we don't. Free-will and fore-konwledge are fine together JUST SO "predestination" is not part of it.
See this for discussion of JUDAS : The Jewish Trial - 1
 Today Presvytera Jeannie begins her in depth study of the trials of Jesus at the hands of the Jewish rulers. (47:42)
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/4/2008 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | |
plato's_playdough said...
Similtude said...
(divine fore-knowledge with free-will)
or they know something we don't. Free-will and fore-konwledge are fine together JUST SO "predestination" is not part of it.
This is compatibilism. It is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible. Taking two mutually exclusive/contradictory positions and denying that they are exclusive or contradictory. Calvinists rightly equate exhaustive foreknowledge with exhaustive predestination. Open theists rightly equate exhaustive foreknowledge with exhaustive predestination. Both the Calvinist and Open Theist are philosophically and logically consistent in their positions. The Open Theist is consistent with scripture also. Compatibilist are neither philosophically, logically nor scripturally consistent.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/4/2008 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
Sahid said...If I make a snowball and throw it knowing with certainty that it will smack my sister in the head, I have all the culpability. Even if we discover tomorrow that snowballs are sentient and really enjoy smacking sisters in the head... even if we learn to communicate with snowballs and learn that they think they are exercising free will when they smack sisters in the head... I am still culpable. It doesn't matter that the snowball thinks (incorrectly) that it has free will. If I am creator and determiner of a sinful act, I myself am culpable. Likewise, if God makes humanity and throws them at a forbidden tree knowing exactly what the consequences of his actions will be, he is culpable. Since I believe God is good and I believe God is creator, I am logically forced to deny exhaustive foreknowledge.
Amen, well stated. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/4/2008 4:54 PM (GMT -6) | |
Joe McCowan said...
plato's_playdough said...
Free-will and fore-konwledge are fine together JUST SO "predestination" is not part of it.
This is compatibilism. It is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible.
Joe, you used "free will" and "determinism" as examples. I'll agree that those two do not go together. BUT, because you used a period and not a colon I'm concerned that you might be thinking that free will" and "for-knowledge" are contradictory -- they are not.
(If you say "This is compatibilism: It is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible." THEN I agree. But if you say just "This is compatibilism. It is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible." THEN is begins to look like what the "this" refers to is my statement, that "Free-will and fore-knowledge are fine together JUST SO "predestination" is not part of it.")
Thanks, Joe.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/4/2008 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | |
Joe McCowan said...
Sahid said...If I make a snowball and throw it knowing with certainty that it will smack my sister in the head, I have all the culpability. Even if we discover tomorrow that snowballs are sentient and really enjoy smacking sisters in the head... even if we learn to communicate with snowballs and learn that they think they are exercising free will when they smack sisters in the head... I am still culpable. It doesn't matter that the snowball thinks (incorrectly) that it has free will. If I am creator and determiner of a sinful act, I myself am culpable. Likewise, if God makes humanity and throws them at a forbidden tree knowing exactly what the consequences of his actions will be, he is culpable. Since I believe God is good and I believe God is creator, I am logically forced to deny exhaustive foreknowledge.
Amen, well stated.
God is not culpable for our free-willed sin. We were not determined to do so. We chose it.
Joe, this idea you two are repeating rests on presuppositions that God is DETERMINED in his simplicity; which goes back past Augustine to Aristotle. The presuppositions affect an idea about God and an idea about mankind.
I DON'T want to post long, long quotes here. Would you please take a look at an article?
Tell me what you think, Joe. You too Zack.
Thanks,
Bruce
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:57 PM (GMT -6) | |
Joe, you used "free will" and "determinism" as examples. I'll agree that those two do not go together. BUT, because you used a period and not a colon I'm concerned that you might be thinking that free will" and "for-knowledge" are contradictory -- they are not.
(If you say "This is compatibilism: It is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible." THEN I agree. But if you say just "This is compatibilism. It is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible." THEN is begins to look like what the "this" refers to is my statement, that "Free-will and fore-knowledge are fine together JUST SO "predestination" is not part of it.")
Thanks, Joe.
Free will and exhaustive foreknowledge are contradictory.
If God knows that one week from today at 4:17pm that Bill will rob and murder his neighbor, and God knows for certain that this will happen, it will in fact take place. If God has always known, even prior to creation, that Bill was going to commit this horrible sin next Friday at 4:17pm, God knew it before Bill had the ability to make such a decision. If God's knowledge of Bills actions preceded Bills existence, Bills actions would indeed be dictated by God's foreknowledge. Bill would have no choice and would be bound by fate.
I do believe that some things are exhaustively foreknown, as God has determined them to come to pass. I do not however believe that God exhaustively foreknows every future event as a certainty. Such a system holds God captive to this "knowledge" that was not generated by Him, if in fact the future was not determined by Him.
Make sense?
The implications of exhaustive foreknowledge also deny the creative abilities of God. Can God presently have an original thought? Can He create something that previously did not exist even in His own mind? Not if we assume He possesses exhaustive foreknowledge.
I am working my way through the ky links now. They are interesting and I am enjoying them thus far.
Grace and Peace, Joe | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2008 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | The articles (and the 3 Steve and Bill podcasts) make the point that *WE_can_change_God's_will.*
Why does that seem at all strange? (It will, I'm told, to many western-christian traditions) The scene is further developed in the reflection that history hands us an idea of God's simplicity being an equation of God's essence being what he does. That means that will is part of essence (rather than an energy/action of God). But where will is understood to be an action, that action can be swayed by our prayers, actions (our energies).
This is not fate. Fate is pagan -- even where it hides in churchy clothing.
.
btw, "actualities" is too big a word for me: I don't know what it means; but seem not to need to--it might be from a system of thought I don't embrace.
p.s., Zack, I think this also underlies the "suffered impassibly" thing: impassible essence does not preclude active willing (including suffering) on God's part, in Christ and by empathy for the Father and Spirit.
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/5/2008 7:49:25 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 5/28/2008 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | |
QUESTION 1. If God knew that Adam and Eve were going to sin, and God created them anyways, doesn't that mean that God created them to sin?
Answer 1. Good question! Yet the Open View cannot answer this in a manner that would satisfy the scheme of justice that you are implying. Under the Open View you still have to accept that God has inductive knowledge; and in His case I would say that it is reasonable to assume that it is somewhere around 99.99% certain. This foreknowledge is in no uncertain terms KNOWLEDGE. So even under the Open View; God foreknew (inductively) that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyways. I don’t think you could charge God with such ignorance that He would not know that man would fall prey to the wiles of the devil.
QUESTION 2. If God knows an individual will live a life of sin and rebellion, and go to hell in the end, and God creates them anyways, doesn't that mean that God created them to sin and go to hell?
Answer 2. The same explanation as above with regards to God’s inductive foreknowledge; God foreknew from eternity past that the gate is narrow, many are called but few are chosen. He knew that most men would not accept the offer of salvation, He knew that most of mankind would end up in hell before He created man. God knew from eternity past that He was creating a world in which most would go to hell. It is knowledge that is so certain, He even showed John the White Thrown Judgement, John saw the small and great being judged... These two issues of “justice” plague the OV as well as the classic view of omniscience.
Chaz Post Edited (Chaz Finney) : 5/28/2008 6:21:59 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 5/29/2008 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Well Sahid;
From reading Jesse's comments I got the impression that he believes that with the OV, there was enough unknown to God; that would enable God to create Adam and Eve etal. without any knowledge of their ultimate trangressions that would send most of mankind to hell - thus preserving His justice. I simply pointed out that "even" if we restrict God's foreknowledge to "induction"; God still knew the outcome of history before He created the world.
Even the OV would have to grant God this inductive knowledge, and if God foreknew all that the bible records; believe me...He foreknew what Adam and Eve would as well as the rest of mankind. With the degree of certainty that He has, practically speaking, His foreknowledge is absolute.
By the way, do you know that God said that His knowledge is infinite? This means without limit, He is not limited by the need of experience to acquire knowledge. The bible also declares that His ways are above our ways...who has known the mind of the LORD. Do you really think that us finite creatures in our limited logic and reason will get a grasp of the LORDS mind? Do you really think that any of us on this BB in all our wisdom will be able to understand how God acquires knowledge or if He even acquires it at all? | | Back to Top | | |
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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 5/29/2008 11:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Chaz said...
I simply pointed out that "even" if we restrict God's foreknowledge to "induction"; God still knew the outcome of history before He created the world.
Even the OV would have to grant God this inductive knowledge, and if God foreknew all that the bible records
In the beginning, there were open possibilities and alternative courses. There was no way for God to know which way it would go.
No doubt God has the power of induction. But in the beginning, what were the elements that He could calculate from? There were no elements before creation that God could have calculated in order to know for certain that Adam and Eve would sin. And there were certainly no elements God could calculate before creation to tell who would and wouldn't be cast into hell on the Day of Judgment. God did not know for sure that Adam and Eve would sin. And God still does not know exactly who will go to Heaven and who will not, except for those who already died righteous and already died wicked.
God can make extrapolative prophecies, but he needs elements to calculate. For example, the denial of Peter. Jesus knew Peter's heart. And Jesus knew Satan's plans for Peter. So Jesus could easily calculate these elements, and others, to predict Peter's thrice denial.
But before anything was created, there was nothing to calculate in which the outcome of free choices could be determined. There were simply open possibilities. God knew that it would be A or B. But which of these it would be, that was uncertain and unpredictable.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
www.OpenAirOutreach.com
www.LibraryofTheology.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 5/29/2008 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesse: No doubt God has the power of induction. But in the beginning, what were the elements that He could calculate from?
Chaz: Jesse, you need to give God more credit than this; the god who created the heavens and the earth with His word, the God of infinite knowledge is certainly capable of more than you allow Him. Additionally you as a finite being cannot think beyond your limitations. You are implying that God's knowledge of the future must be grounded in experience, simply because human knowledge of the future is grounded in experience; this is not a cogent assumption on your behalf. Remember God had already created a race of spirit beings and He knew what free moral agents were capable of and how they react under tempatation. Yet He knew all of this prior to His creating the angels as well.
Again, the error of the OV is that it implies that God's knowledge is limited to the domain of human knowledge which is either a priori or experience. This I believe is not a cogent view. | | Back to Top | | |
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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 5/29/2008 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Before man was even created, what information did God have to work with to determine what choices man would make? There was no information to determine what they would do, though God did know what they could do. There was no information, or no elements, in which God could calculate or predict what may would choose to do. It was just as much possible for them to be sinless as it was for them to become sinful.
Since man had a free will, and therefore might sin and might not sin, how could His sin be foreknown as a certainty? If their sin was a contingency, and therefore "may or may not", its future existence could not have been a certainty.
But since God knows reality as it is, God knew that they might or might not sin, since God knew they had a free will.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
www.OpenAirOutreach.com
www.LibraryofTheology.comPost Edited (jessemorrell) : 5/29/2008 11:54:49 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Chaz Finney
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 102
| Posted 5/29/2008 4:12 PM (GMT -6) | | | Jesse I'm not sure that you understand the concept of knowledge; in short the God who created all the we know as reality with His word, He KNOWS your very next move. He knew that Peter would freely deny Him three times, He knew Adam would sin, He knew that most of mankind that He has created will go to hell...yet He is still a just God. Whether He knew this through reason, clairvoyance or some other means unknowable to us - He has recorded in His word that he has knowledge of future free will events. If you hold the bible in esteem; you will have to agree with this. | | Back to Top | | |
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