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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > Maximus on "particular" (for Tom, and the rest of us too) | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 10:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Wait...
Question:
WHO wrote the letter to the Church of Rome that we have in our Scriptures?
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”
WHO created and wrote this???
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul wrote it. God inspired it.
I actually LIKE the example of Scripture. It's a work of synergy. God did NOT determine every word Paul wrote. There's creative expression determined BY the human author (expressive of that author's unique perspective and personal identity) which God allows (desires), while at the same time a general oversight on God's part. God's inspiration of the author and safeguarding (if you will) from certain (?) errors means the end result is authoritative and trustworthy. We can say it's both God's word and a human being's word, but NOT because the author resigns self-determining agency so God determines every word that's written (which would have to be the case if Scripture was an example of the kind of divine-human relationship you adopt). Rather, it's because God is both the source of the truth written AND because the sort of person the author became (one whose life and story qualify as a source of guidance and truth for the community) is a creative achievement of both God and the author.
Keep smoking that cigar.
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | T: It's novel beauty originated (viz., determined) BY creatures that you don't have. Saying "in creatures" can mean creatures are just "where" God creatively expresses himself, as opposed to what I (and I think Corey) see.
D: What did you get from what I described in the post above?
T: It's what I did NOT get that concerns me. There's either novel beauty determined BY us or there's not. I hear you saying there will NOT be. But that might be unwarranted. Let's say that I don't hear you saying there WILL be. But you can clarify it for us with a simple yes or no.
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Heh.
When reading the words that Paul writes...can you tell where God's creativity working in and through Paul begins...and where Paul's own creativity ends? Are they really separable?
Think about this. What if Paul PRAYED before writing his works...asking God to work through him as he wrote? What then? (I think that would be a safe assumption)
Think about the BI-POLAR ASSYMETRICAL RELATIONAL UNITY between Paul's human spirit and God's Word (Christ WITHIN HIM) via the Holy Spirit (WITHIN HIM).
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | You know what, Corey. I actually think this is the PERFECT ANALOGY for the bi-polar relational unity we are talking about...
“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”
Now, to WHOM does this ONE statment refer?
Well, it refers self-referentially to Paul, who is the human, first-person author of the statement...who, in self-awareness, refers to the Spirit of Christ as his own "life" (God-breather of Scripture)...who energizes Paul (Grace)...who continues to refer to the Spirit of Christ...who continues to energize Paul...who...
Get it?
WHO wrote this? We can't tell where God ends and Paul begins...and vice versa. BOTH creative beings are reciprocally active in the same act.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/17/2008 11:13:36 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Another thing, if there IS novel beauty that's determined BY us, this doesn't mean the creative act isn't ALSO a work of synergy reflective of God (just like Scripture).
The synergy I believe God created us for is one that produces outcomes which are the result of the freely determined giving (and receiving) of one's self to God, so that the end result is partly determined by God (and so reflective of God) and partly determined by us (and so reflective of us).
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
The synergy I believe God created us for is one that produces outcomes which are the result of the freely determined giving (and receiving) of one's self to God, so that the end result is partly determined by God (and so reflective of God) and partly determined by us (and so reflective of us).
Does this idea match what how I described things? ("I, not I, but Christ" in all activities)
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | It's like listening to my son play Copin on the piano. Of whom does the music speak?
Well, both. BUT saying that much doesn't get you what you want, viz., God determining all creaturely movment. Quite the opposite. There's freely self-determined movement on the part of the musician. But HOWEVER the pianist plays Chopin, it's still Chopin. Both are there (personhood is an ekstatic movement), but each determines his own movement.
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | All you are saying, Tom, is that we express Christ (who IS our life) in our own particular uniqueness, specifically in our OWN historical ego-periphery development. And neither the universality of Christ nor the particularity of the human "self-as-spirit" destroys the other, but demonstates the COINHERENCY of each other. The particular is NOT annihilated by the universal, but is sustained AS PARTICULAR by the universal. Just like Loder says.
"I, not I, but Christ"
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/17/2008 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | T: The synergy I believe God created us for is one that produces outcomes which are the result of the freely determined giving (and receiving) of one's self to God, so that the end result is partly determined by God (and so reflective of God) and partly determined by us (and so reflective of us).
D: Does this idea match what how I described things? ("I, not I, but Christ" in all activities)
T: No, because you remove the "partly determined by us" part definitive of relational synergy. For you it's all determined by God. If you DO believe creatures self-determine creative expression, well, heh, by all means, tell us so. Do you believe in the self-determining nature of fulfilled human existence?
T | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm saying something you're denying, namely, that we self-determine creative expression. It's all in the last couple of pages (about logoi as expressive of ranges of loving forms the determining of which God intends US to determine; a determination God does not want to decide).
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
If you DO believe creatures self-determine creative expression, well, heh, by all means, tell us so. Do you believe in the self-determining nature of fulfilled human existence?
Lord, help.
I believe that my human "self-as-spirit" will self-determine creative of expression in God's World (the created "I' agency is the creator of "worlds" as seen in ego-development itself) THROUGH the bi-polar assymetrical relational unity my "self-as-spirit" NATURALLY HAS with Divine Presence (via the Holy Spirit) such that THIS would be the CORE BELIEF for every thought and action...
“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.”
I don't believe that we will EVER stop saying this...even in our deified, resurrected BODIES in the Eschaton.
"His (God's) Life is mine." like what Ware said...
My life is "ENTANGLED" with God's life. INSEPARABLE, yet DISTINCT.
Kinda like the Communication of Idioms...
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/17/2008 11:33:55 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
Think the Religiousness A (Knight of Infinite Resignation), and the ACTIVE SELF-RENUNCIATION that appears in that stage, which is NECESSARY to experiencing Religiousness B (Knight of Faith).
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
|
One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/17/2008 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Brainblast!!! (the cartoon "Jimmy Neutron"  )
Let's say that Daniel decided that he wanted to spend his whole life and energy "indwelling" Chopin. In doing this, he does everything he can (learning about his life, music, etc)...until he's virtually an complete expert (in all senses) on Chopin, playing and interpreting Chopin incredibly by all critics' standards. To hear Daniel would be to eeriely hear "Chopin" even through it's irreducibly related to his Daniel's own creative talent and interpretation.
If he were then to compose and perform a BRAND NEW contemporary composition about "Global Warming" or something like that, WHO would we be hearing in that ONE performance?
I say we'd hear a BI-POLAR ASSYMETRICAL RELATIONAL UNITY of the realities of Chopin and Daniel...but in the ONE ACT of Daniel's creative production and performance.
Make sense?
And THAT'S human creativity "indwelling" the creativity of a long, dead person through their music. Can you imagine doing this every moment with the LIVING Spirit of Christ? 
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Post Edited (Divine Progeny) : 8/17/2008 11:54:32 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 1:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Infinite Possibilities
Amel Larrieux
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOTuAWOpnks
Infinite Possibilities...I can see them now...
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/17/2008 2:06 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Glad I don't read Moore.
Sounds like an over-simplification, and missing som subtleties. Like they didn't let him speak for himself but tried to make him conform to modern issues.
Tom said...
Since you posted about Maximus, POW:
Ed Moore: "Maximus errs on a different point. i.e., he describes salvation as the replacement of the personal ego by the divine presence. This is tantamount to a denial of the importance of personhood, and the presistence of personality in eschatological existence." Maximus, Moore argues, "reduces our existence to a function of the Godhead, and robs our personhood of any meaning." Authentic existence, says Moore, is the result of personal decision. After a few confirming quotes from the EO philosopher/theologian Berdyaev, Moore concludes that "in the system of Maximus, God remains forever the same, forever stable, in perfect repose--a repose so absolute that the soul that unites with God is rendered motionless, in a static 'perfection' devoid of creative achievement or involvement...In this eschatological state the soul ceases to be an actor...humanity is revealed as merely a function of the Godhead, who uses His creation for the purpose of His own self-actualization." Thus, "the reducibility of human act to divine function."
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 8/17/2008 2:18:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/17/2008 3:44 PM (GMT -6) | |
Divine Progeny said...
(Ware) Since, then, the union between God and the human beings that he has created is a union neither according to essence nor according to hypostasis, it remains thirdly that it should be a union according to energy. The saints do not become God by essence nor one person with God, but they participate in the energies of God, that is to say, in his life, power, grace, and glory. This says that participating in the energies of God does not change your person (nor deminishing your personhood--alla Moore), nor does it change one's human essence.
Doesn't this defend against extreem characatures of D.'s interest?
(o) Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 8/18/2008 9:08:22 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
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| Posted 8/17/2008 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | D: Think the Religiousness A (Knight of Infinite Resignation), and the ACTIVE SELF-RENUNCIATION that appears in that stage, which is NECESSARY to experiencing Religiousness B (Knight of Faith).
Corey: Okay. Still doesn't seem incompatible with Tom's perspective. I'm not trying to be dense, it comes naturallly enough. But too this doesn't seem to move the ball down field.
Are you claiming that Tom is against active self-renunciation? It seems fairly plain to me that one can have progressed from Religiousness A to Religiousness B and still be a determiner of novel beauty as Tom has described. In fact, I might even be so bold as to claim to have experienced this sort of thing first hand.
Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are. Post Edited (Corey) : 8/17/2008 3:56:04 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | POW: Doesn't this defend against extreem characatures of D.'s interest?
T: I certainly don't want to do that. Tell me, B, just what is D's interest and how am I caricaturing it?
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Tom
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| Posted 8/17/2008 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/17/2008 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
What exactly is meant by the Möbius strip metaphor? Isn't it that there's actually only one side, with the appearance of two -- duality is illusionary?
But how does this comport with the notion of bi-polar assymetrical unity? The metaphor doesn't suggest true bipolarity, only the illusion of it.
He describes it well in Chap. 3 of "Knight's Move". Since you have it, you can just check it out when you wish.
**********************************************
Corey:
D: Think the Religiousness A (Knight of Infinite Resignation), and the ACTIVE SELF-RENUNCIATION that appears in that stage, which is NECESSARY to experiencing Religiousness B (Knight of Faith).
Corey: Okay. Still doesn't seem incompatible with Tom's perspective. I'm not trying to be dense, it comes naturallly enough. But too this doesn't seem to move the ball down field.
Are you claiming that Tom is against active self-renunciation? It seems fairly plain to me that one can have progressed from Religiousness A to Religiousness B and still be a determiner of novel beauty as Tom has described. In fact, I might even be so bold as to claim to have experienced this sort of thing first hand.
What I'm trying to acknowledge is the depth of the self-renunciation in Religiousnes A, unto all of the self-being laid "on the altar" as it were. There's significant aspects to this, as I see it, when it comes to what one's attempts to surrender to God in that self-resignation. You've got the book, so I'll let you check it out. Pages 110-113.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. | | Back to Top | | |
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