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CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88

Posted 3/28/2009 12:02 PM (GMT -6)

http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/03/from-faith-to-common-sense-atheism/

Rather than push us towards attempted challenges or refutations here (I encourage you to engage the author, as I have, via comment below the article), I'd be curious to know what you think it would mean for you and the way you live your life if you were to become convinced that the author were correct.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Shane M.

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 3/28/2009 12:27 PM (GMT -6)

Interesing site, Shane. I must say, my experience is not analogous to his at all. I was more like a reluctant convert like C. S. Lewis. I, too, disagree with the Kalam argument, but don't see what that has to do with theism. For me, theism is entailed in teleology, and the consensus opinion in academe is that humans think teleologically, naturally. So I can't imagine what argument, other than the problem of evil, could ever be used against theism. And if theism is false, it would imply that a natural, categorical mode of thought (teleological thought) for humans is false. And if that one is false, what other ones might be false? IOW, the road of abandoning categories is arbitrary and, hence, self-refuting. Thus, even if the problem of evil is intractable, it would merely destroy any hope that our categories are trustworthy and, therefore, undermine epistemology altogether. It's either benevolent theism or epistemological bankruptcy as far as I can tell.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 3/28/2009 3:28 PM (GMT -6)

If I were absolutely "convinced" that there was no God...and the Void was truly the telos of all things...

I'd just be silent...just silence throughout my whole being...because, in my mind, there'd really be nothing else worth doing or saying. Everything would be nothing, and activity before the Great Void is meaningless.

So, I'd just breathe until I got tired of breathing. Then I'd stop.

And that's interesting...because when one is absolutely convinced of God's immediate Presence, silence is also the most reasonable "response" before the Holy One.

Seems like "silence" is the way to go. Hmm...

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

"God in Christ by His Spirit empowers, enables, energizes and enacts all Christian behavior and ministry as the dynamic expression of the life of Jesus Christ. Christianity is Christ. Christian living is the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through the Christian." -James Fowler

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 3/29/2009 1:56 AM (GMT -6)

I *truly* can appreciate where the guy is coming from. I respect genuine intellectual struggles and I think that on a popular level Christians don't come accross as either having studiously chosen their faith or as being appreciative of the struggles others go through.

But to be honest, it's hard to know what to make of this guy's story. He doesn't bring up the issues that foreclosed his faith and he make some pretty sweeping (maybe even silly) claims about belief in God.

If he's happier now than before, what else is there to say?

T

CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88

Posted 3/29/2009 8:42 AM (GMT -6)

As far as what led him to chuck his faith, he'd point to rigorous study. He mentions historical Jesus studies. (Although, interestingly, he didn't spend all that much time doing his homework, even if he does appear to be among the brighter people I've seen leave the faith.) His blog (www.commonsenseatheism.com, I believe it is, has more to say about what he rejects and why. He's even careful to critique what he takes to be some of the less careful atheistic argumentation out there [e.g., Dawkins].)

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 3/29/2009 8:47 AM (GMT -6)

Has he read Greg's stuff? ;o)

T

One Love
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 3/29/2009 8:49 AM (GMT -6)

Good question, Tom! I know that being with Greg and his stuff is a MAJOR reason I'm not an atheist right now!

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

"I love, therefore I am in I Am. God is my life."

Corey
Five with a Four-wing

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893

Posted 3/29/2009 8:53 AM (GMT -6)

I had a discussion very similar to this with my coworker last week. He chucked his faith, too, and points to Crossan and others for intellectual support. My point to him, and to myself, is that one need not have a third-hand sort of relation to God, mediated through this or that scholar. I go back to "properly basic" stuff... my ongoing first-hand immediate experience of God. My faith is not at risk from the "scholars" since it's not based on them to start with.

That being said, I do expect that, if my faith is true, that ultimately the academics will agree with me.

In the conversation, I asked Dave this directly, "May I ask you something personal? Do you pray?" He said he meditates sometimes, feeling the power of nature around him. I suggested that (like SK talks about) that there may come a moment when he becomes aware that this is more that just an impersonal force of nature, but the personal presence of God, someone who is more than just electricity or magnetism, some who loves, who has a will, intentions, purpose, design for intimate communion with you. You may be looking for him, only to discover that he's actually already looking into you.

Post Edited (Corey) : 3/29/2009 8:58:05 AM (GMT-5)

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 3/29/2009 9:27 AM (GMT -6)

I think of the verse, "Walk in wisdom that you might know how to ANSWER every man." That's how I take D's comments about silence. Peter says something similar: "ready to give a REASON for the hope that is in you." These verses seem to imply that if we are living the life of hope, those who are at a point where they are ready to engage will ask US. We need to be ready and prepared. That is why I think there is a place for apologetics. Like D saying Greg's stuff helping him. Like Corey saying "I do expect that, if my faith is true, that ultimately the academics will agree with me." We need to be prepared so we can answer EVERY man.

But we don't need to run to people to try to talk them out of their atheism, I don't think. We might, I suppose, engage a person about a particular point of contention (like some point about the historical Jesus evidence) in a spirit of meekness and humility and see where the conversation goes naturally. But our life, lived in hope, is what ought to be the real conversation starter for those who are truly wondering. Now for those with the gift of evangelism, there may be more to it.

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 3/29/2009 8:28 PM (GMT -6)

There is no proof for God. There is no proof against God. Any claim to objective knowledge of God is silly. All historical study can do with regard to this issue is convince us that something extraordinary happened. Good historical study can clear the distractions, but it cannot finally answer the question. Once this is done our subjective belief, our faith, rests on our will. Some think a happy ending to this story sounds good; some think it's bad storytelling. Some prefer major chords, some minor.

There was a time when I was there, convinced there was nothing. It was disappointing and sad. I shuddered at the thought of having to reorient my now much shallower life. The Spirit showed up out of the blue and offered hope and I took it. My best friend at the time went through something similar and he said no. Some have a taste for the tragic.

CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88

Posted 3/30/2009 11:55 AM (GMT -6)

I appreciate your thoughts, peeps. Would anybody besides D want to answer my original question? :-)

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 3/30/2009 7:02 PM (GMT -6)

Shane, I'd have to say that if I became convinced there was no God, it would differ as to the fall-out depending on WHEN in my Christian life it occurred. In the earlier years, I would have resorted to the hedonistic approach to life with no real intellectual ponderings whatsoever. After all, why worry about truth if there is no purpose for life. But at this point of my Christian life, if I were to become convinced that there was no God, I would probably still find some satisfaction in pointing out to other atheists that atheism grounds no intelligibility of non-relativistic, normative epistemology or morality. And that, therefore, there are no epistemological winners if there is no God. All belief is arbitrary if our minds aren't even designed to apprehend. Thus, the theist is no more arbitrary than any one else if there is no God.

Post Edited (Similtude) : 3/30/2009 7:50:11 PM (GMT-5)

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 3/31/2009 6:26 AM (GMT -6)

I second Jeff's answer. If I become convinced there was no God, I'd live for the pleasure of the moment without thought of living to fulfill any non-relativistic purpose or goal.

T

JET
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397

Posted 3/31/2009 7:21 AM (GMT -6)

If I became convinced that the God of Abraham and Jesus did not exist, I'd go with the God of Whitehead and Hartshorne. If I became convinced that no transcendent being exists (or that transcendence itself does not exist), I would seriously consider hedonism. However, I would probably be afraid that I would find hedonism either: (a) too boring or (b) too destructive/painful (i.e., the opposite of pleasure). And so I would probably decide to go on pretending to believe in some form of transcendence. And if I were going to pretend that I believe in some form of transcendence, I'd probably go with Jesus.

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