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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 4/10/2011 2:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

For some reason, Richard Beck's blog will not allow me to link to it. Anyhoo, Beck is a professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University. He has a big problem with freewill and especially basing whole theologies on it as Greg does. Beck draws a distinction between freewill and volitionism and in particular different extremes of volitionism. Greg he feels would be a strong volitionist. Whereas he (Beck) is a weak volitionist.

Here is Beck’s full blog: 

What I Don't Get about Greg Boyd (and Rob Bell)

Thanks to Tony Jones for pointing out this link to Greg Boyd's blog where he defends free will. Again, this is an issue being talked about a lot right now as human freedom is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the theology of Rob Bell's book Love Wins, as it does in a lot of Boyd's own work. For example, free will does a lot of work in Boyd's thinking about theodicy as he posits that a lot of the evil in the world is due to the free will of Satan and his minions.

Generally speaking, you see free will do theological work in the following areas:

Theodicy:
A lot of evil in the world is due to the free will of humans and Satanic forces.

God's Foreknowledge and Openness:
A lot of openness theology, where the future is unknown to God (and thus "open"), uses free will to argue for its position.

Soteriology:
In both conventional and unconventional views of salvation and damnation, human free will is implicated in if God can "blame" you (and, thus, send you to hell) for your refusal to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

So free will does a lot of theological work for people. And if I'm not mistaken (but I could be), Greg Boyd leans heavily on free will in each of the areas noted above. It plays a huge part in how he thinks about God, evil, and salvation.

As I've repeatedly said, I'm pretty skeptical (as, it seems, is Tony Jones) about the whole notion of free will. But unfortunately, the whole free will versus determinism debate gets quickly bogged down. So I like to frame the debate around two less extreme models of human volition: Weak versus strong volitionalism. Greg Boyd, by believing in free will, is, at the very least, a strong volitionist. He feels that human volitional capacities are so robust and strong that they can override all genetic, sociological, behavioral, and biological factors. That is, you can choose yourself clear of the causal flux. Your innate personality traits, the fact that you've had a bad night's rest, the fact that you were raised a Muslim in Iran, all your childhood experiences...all of it. You can just "choose" and break free from it all. That is a strong view of human volitional capacities.

By contrast, weak volitionists, like myself, see human volitional capacities as, well, more modest. We make choices but these choices struggle mightily to escape the orbit of genes, learning history, cultural context,
and even your blood sugar level. It's just very unlikely (empirically and philosophically) to think that you could choose your way out of all this. Is that determinism? No, because a weak volitionist is willing to grant that some extraordinary people seem to have accomplished this feat. She is the Muslim in Iran who converts to Christianity. Or he is the Christian who converts to Islam and goes to fight with the Taliban. It seems that a few people can make radical breaks from their life matrix. And these are heroic tales. Think of Oprah. Her early life was awful, and yet, through force of will it seems, she escaped the early orbit of her life.

And many of us are successful in this attempt in greater or lesser ways. And yet, as just noted, achieving full escape velocity is very, very rare. Being raised in a loving American Christian family biases the mind. Chronic poverty has ruinous effects. Traumatic life circumstances, like suffering sexual abuse at the hands of a clergy member, can be hard to overcome. And so on. This is not to say that our lives our pre-determined, just that positing a radical notion of free will seems very naive and overly simplistic.

So here's what I don't get about Greg Boyd (and Rob Bell). And to be clear, Greg Boyd is a thinker whose work I truly admire and have used in bible study classes. I come from an Arminian tradition so I see myself in Greg's camp rather than with the Reformed (whom I find very strange, theologically speaking). But as a psychologist my understanding of human volition--about what it is really capable of (e.g., work in a psychiatric hospital has taught me that minds can become ruined and change is very, very hard)--prompts me to push back a bit on all the free will-based theological work out there.

If I could ask him, here's the question I'd ask Greg Boyd: Why would you build your entire theological system upon a historically recent, non-biblical, philosophically contested, scientifically disputed, and perennially controversial anthropocentric abstraction?

For it seems to me that for Boyd's theology to come out right free will has to come out right. (Which is why he'll never agree with me on this as he'd have to start over, theologically speaking. Back to square one. And who would want to do that?)

But the need to get free will right seems odd to me. Personally, I'd like to see a theology that comes out right because we get God right. Why base your theodicy, theology of Providence, and soteriology on a dubious and hotly contested theory about human anthropology? It makes your theology so fragile and open to critique. Worse, your evangelistic efforts have to focus on humans. That is, for Boyd to convince me about, say, this theodicy I have to first be convinced about the existence and coherence of free will. Humans come first. When we agree on the humans, once I accept the axiom of free will, we can proceed onto God and other related issues (evil, salvation). Boyd has to convince me about this philosophical abstraction before even getting to his theology. And given that people have always and will always question the notion of free will, well, how much long term success can one expect from this approach? Why reduce Christian theology to an apologetics for free will? Do Christian have to go out there and convince their neighbors about free will? Is that the Great Commission?

I mean, if free will exists, great. But why put so much weight, the entire credibility of the Christian faith, upon such a shaky and contested foundation? Why go out on that anthropological tightrope and put everything at risk?

---------------------------------------

I think it would be important to look at Tony Jones Blog and what he says about "post-structuralism" which fits in with my understanding of politics.  We are like fish in water. To some large extent we can't flourish as humans without a good system or "water tank" in place.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 4/10/2011 4:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Beck: If I could ask him, here's the question I'd ask Greg Boyd: Why would you build your entire theological system upon a historically recent, non-biblical, philosophically contested, scientifically disputed, and perennially controversial anthropocentric abstraction?

Tom: I'm guessing that Greg would say: (1) I don't in fact build my entire theological system upon the notion of libertarian free will. I don't "start" with humankind and its freedom and THEN procede on to God, soteriology, etc. (2) LFW is in fact not "historically recent"; it is the view of the Eastern Fathers. As far back as we have Christian thinkers recording their thoughts on the matter we have believers in LFW. (3) LFW is not non-biblical. (4) Yes, LFW is philosophically contested. What isn't these days? (5) Yes, LFW is scientifically disputed. So what? What's the scientific evidence that the human will cannot be free in the libertarian sense? You've admitted there ARE exceptions; that some DO choose their way outside the orbital influence of entrenched worldviews and painful debilitating histories. Are you suggesting that there is scientific evidence that these exceptions never happened? (6) LFW is perennially controversial? So is God. (7) LFW is an anthropocentric abstraction? ALL "concepts" are abstractions, including your "voluntarism." ANY concept of freedom is going to be an abstraction whose meaning is analogically grounded in the human experience.

Beyond that, I don't think Greg would disagree with much that this guys says.

Tom


KIXYTΘEMTA

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 4/10/2011 8:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I really don't see much difference between what Beck is saying and what D said on page three of the Rob Bell a Universalist? thread: 
 
"Here's the problem with that. There are many people in situations now that are not of their own willing or creation where their talents and capacities are far underutilized, if not totally squelched. Many people live and die before they are really "born", as it were. Part of the aspect of eschatological restoration, it could be said, is that eventual RELEASE and FLOURISH of those talents and capacities in an environment where they can finally thrive. In other words, if there is some gifted kid in Bangladesh who's lived all their life in squallor and pain...and died in the same as a late teenager, we have the hope that in the future, this person's giftings will be released to be given to God in the eschaton. He shouldn't be penalized for circumstances beyond his control that stunted his development and growth."
 
To some extent I don't like the way Beck puts it.  Yes there are exceptions and those exceptions are rare indeed.  I don't doubt that we are connected to systems to which we bear out bodily but it doesn't seem we are limited to them.  That there is something of a mystery as to why we humans do what we do.  We often contradict the logical outcomes one might predict if looking at our context.  So people do make choices everyday that fly in the face of their circumstantial conditioning. 
 
There use to be hard-nosed theories that saw people as programs but these were abandoned for a view where it is acknowledged that people have the capacity for processed decisions and their long term affects upon the self.  In other words, choice exists universally–no matter how limited the scope.  And people keep on finding a way to rise above their circumstances.  However, when we think of people as merely social constructs or as amalgams of conditioning, we open ourselves up to a grand world of excuses. Choice isn’t something abstract.  It’s something very concrete, its all of us, making decisions, doing things, and taking the consequences.  It’s always our decision who we are.  That is what one blogger said the extentialists called “the anguish of freedom.”  
 
But again, though we should never write ourselves off as complete victims of various forces those forces do weigh in on us pretty heavily as D is suggesting above.  And for me, from a political standpoint, those systems can contribute to our humanization or dehumanization.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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