Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > Erasing Hell  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Show Newest Post First ]

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 5/2/2012 10:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My brother is back in town on furlough and we were talking recently (again) about EUR, specifically around his recent reading of Love Wins by Rob Bell. He said he also read Francis Chan's Erasing Hell: What God said about eternity, and the things we made up. I had to admit I didn't even know of that book. Have any of you read it? Thoughts? How's that subtitle grab ya?
 
My thoughts. I started listening to the audio book version of it today as I commuted to work. I was pretty discouraged that we can't seem to have more honest engagement. I hope my brother and I can engage more respectfully and sincerely than this acclaimed pastor did. So many straw-men in this thing. Ugh.
 
Then again, I also happen to think that Rob Bell isn't the best representative of EUR out there. He gets a little snarky and also straw-mans the other side. Why oh why?

Post Edited (Corey) : 5/2/2012 10:36:31 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/3/2012 9:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Totally. You're so right Corey. I thought Bell's book was a SAD offering. He's sincere and has a great articulate style. But in the end I thought his book was the worst thing I've seen in support of UR (or even in support of being open to UR). I remember thinking, "Can it get any worse?" and then I read Chan's book and it gets worse!

Tom


"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

Back to Top
 

BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 5/3/2012 10:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And then there is this song and dance.  Lets talk about hell by not really getting down to the issues.  Lets just tap dance our way around the issue here.  Good grief.  I swear CT is going to pot man.
 
And he even says this in that article:  "What would be the thing about God that I'd be most struck by? I would definitely be shocked and awed by his love, but I'm more stunned by his power, and his seriousness, his holiness maybe even more than his love."


Brandon
Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Back to Top
 

Tom
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
 
   Posted 5/3/2012 11:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah Br. And there's the falsely assumed either/or too. Either holiness or love. Either judgment or love. Either seriousness or love.

Tom


"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 5/4/2012 11:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I've tried to describe how my theology has changed over the years to various old friends of mine who know me from earlier times in my spiritual journey. To do that, I've used the metaphor of a mobile, like those we hang over a baby's crib: it only hangs together correctly if it's held up by the right string; otherwise it's wildly distorted. And for most of my life I was picking up the wrong string first. Now I see that you must orient everything around Love, and then the rest of it can start to hang together beautifully. I hope that I have started to do this in recent years.

So, let's relate this to Chan's book. I think his theological mobile is suspended by the wrong string, and that string seems to be: Freedom.

The fundamental question that drove me to eventually affirm UR is this: Does God love those who have been condemned to hell? If he doesn't, we're done; ECT is no problem then. But only then.

And that seems to be where Chan goes. He says below that love is something God can withhold. God is free to not love. [emph. mine]:

Question 7: How can God be loving and still send people to hell?

This is a question that many intelligent theologians have wrestled with over the centuries. It was, in fact, this question (among others) that drove the early church leader Origen to believe that all people will end up in heaven. He believed that the love of God demands it.

Can God be loving and still send people to hell? If what I have argued in this book is correct, then we must answer yes. Here are three reasons why:

First, God is love, but He also defines what love is. We don’t have the license to define love according to our own standards and sensibilities. We often assume that love means achieving the ultimate happiness of everyone you are able to. If this were love, then yes, hell would be incompatible with God’s love. But Scripture doesn’t define God’s love in this way. Love is part of who God is. And God defines what love is. God does not have to save everyone for Him to show love. Love, in other words, is essentially wrapped up in the character of God. Though God acts in ways that seem unloving by our standards, they are not unloving by His standards—and His standards are the ones that matter.

Second, we must understand the love of God in light of His other characteristics. God is love, but He is also holy and just, and He frequently pours out wrath toward sin. In fact, God sometimes withholds certain attributes in order to exercise others. For instance, God withholds His wrath to exercise mercy. God withholds justice to pour out His grace. Of course, God could choose to lavish all humanity with His mercy and therefore choose to withhold His wrath toward everyone. But the Bible doesn’t support this.

Third, and to my mind most importantly, we must understand God’s love in light of God’s freedom. As we have seen in this book, God, as the Creator, is free to do whatever He sees best. He is compelled by none other than Himself. And God’s freedom means—though it’s difficult to swallow—that God can withhold love (Rom. 9). It’s a logical (and theological) mistake to think that God can’t be loving unless He saves everyone. Such an assumption, while seeking to cherish the love of God, violates His freedom and sovereignty.

I’m not at all trying to minimize the pain we feel when we think about the unsaved being tormented in hell, nor am I suggesting that we simply snuff our emotions and move on with our lives: Remember Paul’s anguish (Rom. 9:2–3). All I’m suggesting is that as the all-powerful, all-wise Creator of the universe, God does what is just, right, and loving in a much more profound way than we can possibly imagine. We must cling to Abraham’s words in Genesis 18:25: “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”

Chan, Francis; Sprinkle, Preston (2011-07-01). Erasing Hell: What God Said about Eternity, and the Things We've Made Up (pp. 162-164). David C Cook. Kindle Edition.

Post Edited (Corey) : 5/4/2012 4:49:49 PM (GMT-5)

Back to Top
 

One Love
Registered Member




Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
 
   Posted 5/4/2012 11:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I can't lie. I remember when I used to think like this...and Piper.  God is God and he is "free" and "sovereign" to do whatever he wants. And his "free" actions of sending people to hell (ala ECT) is how we should define what "love" does.  Essentially, God's love being a function of God's freedom and (self)righteousness.

But that's because I believed that God WAS before I truly believed God was LOVE (ala will to good/proper relationship via self-involved interpersonal sharing). I was converted to believing in a existing Creator BEFORE I learned about God's love personally. 


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 5/4/2012 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: I believed that God WAS before I truly believed God was LOVE

C: That's a great quote and good summation of many of our stories. Amen.


 

Back to Top
 

Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 5/19/2012 6:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I found this video of Eric Reitan discussing Rob Bell's Love Wins
Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:00 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads