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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 4/6/2004 2:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Might-be-Don -- About a year ago, you discussed your problems with your current church and your attempt to do the church thing on your own. I've been wondering how you've been doing in this regard.
I'm feeling pretty depressed about my own church experience. It mostly comes down to a lack of genuine fellowship. My small group experiences have been superficial at best, soul-damaging at worst. After months of putting up with boring, lecture-style Bible study and gossip sessions thinly disguised as prayer requests, I finally quit my small group last fall. I told them honestly that I felt that I was "spiritually depressed" and needed time off. My church attendance has since become very sporadic. (And, not surprisingly, my small group leader has not checked up on us, and no one from the church has even noticed our absence.) 
What bothers me most about this is I have two young children that I would like to raise in a stable church community. But I don't want to be one of those church hypocrites who go to church just to say they go to church.
So, Might-be-Don, I was curious as to what your experiences have been in the past year, and would also like to hear from anyone else who cares to comment. Thanks! | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/6/2004 4:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Leila:
I will be praying for you and your family as you search out God's will in this. Fellowship is so necessary yet can prove to be so damaging to our spirit. I believe community living and church experience cannot be limited to nor about our small group experiences. I heard tell that Greg preached this past weekend about having a few rocks in our lives and everything else being sand. My personal opinion is that in our lives we have one solid rock (Jesus) and many precious pebbles of various sizes. Although being part of a small group can help us grow in our relationship with God it is not the whole of church. Church contains many pebbles of various sizes. Perhaps the people in your last small group will need to be small stones in your life but that does not mean there are not some precious pebbles in your church and perhaps these precious pebbles will become your small group.
On the other hand, not every church can be the right fit -- that's why there are so many churches out there. If you don't feel you and your family are growing in your Christian life at your present church then perhaps shopping for a new church would be the move to make. I don't believe we were meant to do our Christianity alone, however some people (perhaps Might Be Don) need a season of something different or a creative way from traditional church.
I guess what I am trying to say, Leila, is that you have permission to not fit within a particular group of believers without it being about you nor them. God may be calling you to a new community of believers and this may look different from what you expect. I know of people who have house churches (as it sounds like Might Be Don does?) and this fulfills their spiritual hunger. You may find that you will need to take time off from church to pray and sort this out before making any decision.
I will be praying.
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 4/7/2004 3:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila,
Interesting you should ask, I was thinking about writing an update last week.
This has been the most liberating year of my life. I sure some ( if not most ) will disagree with me on this one but I'm now firmly convinced that the physical "church" on this earth was put together by God not for Him, but for us. We see this most clearly in the writer to the Hebrews saying, Hebrews 10:25, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
We are to gather to exhort one another. It's as simple as that. Temple worship is no longer needed or necessary. No need of priest to perform a weekly ritual for us. No need of weekly sacrifice. No need of a special day at all. God doesn't need for us to perform each week for Him. No need of a "clergy" .
Our heart felt worship of Him is best expressed in obedience, love God and love your neighbor.
The truth of the matter is I could not find a fellowship in this area that comes even close. I only found folks that were looking to press their agenda. Mind you, these were not bad things to strive for on the whole, but I'm not interested in being "ministered" to. Also, I'm sorry, but the "pastor" isn't the only one God speaks to in the church. The pastor's job isn't to be Moses for the group, but to help each of us to be Moses.
Anyway... all of that led me to this ...
I attended my former church several times during the last year and was dismayed by how folks were being abused by my replacement ( I ran sound and many other technical things ) . The sound was ear-splitting loud and the rest of the crew was being overworked and the church leaders were "pleased" at how well things were going. I determined two things, I missed my friends and I was dismayed at what they were having to put up with in terms of the sound. I'm now back at that church, but with a completely new attitude. I have zero interest in "building the ministry". My goal is exhorting my fellow believers and keeping the folks from being abused by the sound. The knowing smiles I receive from those who understand my purpose there keeps me going in the face of a church leadership that has gone from bad to worse. Understand this, the leadership is doing what they have always done, what their fathers did, and their fathers before them. They were taught to be what they are and they are trying their best to pass it on. Only they were taught wrong, no other way to say it.
Leila, I have no way to judge the source of your "spiritually depressed" condition. The things that I have found most encourging in my life has been the knowledge that I'm not alone in my feelings about church life, and that I'm not completely wrong. I might be somewhat off base, but not completely.
peace, don
"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Also, I'm sorry, but the "pastor" isn't the only one God speaks to in the church. The pastor's job isn't to be Moses for the group, but to help each of us to be Moses.
and
Understand this, the leadership is doing what they have always done, what their fathers did, and their fathers before them. They were taught to be what they are and they are trying their best to pass it on. Only they were taught wrong, no other way to say it.
Yep. Priesthood of all believers. I think these two are directly related and I happen to think that you are RIGHT ON about this. I hear ALL THE TIME, "You are a gift to the body of Christ!" "You have a talent!" "We are here to equip you to do ministry."
Yet, I really believe that most pastors don't know what that even looks like outside of serving THEIR program. For most pastors, your gifting is "ushering," "greeting," "praying," and "singing" or "teaching a Sunday school class." The problem with all of these is this: they are all concieved of in terms as serving that church or pastor's plan which usually means, keeping the machine going (maintaining the levels they are already at) or growing their particular quota of people (physical church growth).
I personally think this couldn't be farther from a New Testament model of what it means to be "set" (ordained) in the body of Christ as Paul concieved of in Corinthians.
The stance of the pastoral ministry should be that of equipping saints for THEIR ministry not only in the church but IN THE WORLD. I am not suggesting that these activities above are bad in and of themselves? But there is a heck of a lot of ministry to do while only the leadership in the church REALLY insists that it is THEY that can do it while giving lipservice to the rest of us.
For some REALLY good reading on this check out:
fc.asburyseminary.edu/~Howard_Snyder/index.htm
Check out his books for some radical thinking on church life and ministry. Be prepared to be challenged.
Also, read: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573830127/qid=1081441167/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_xs_stripbooks_i2_xgl14/104-7636587-3720757?v=glance&s=books
New signature below. 
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
(And, not surprisingly, my small group leader has not checked up on us, and no one from the church has even noticed our absence.)
Leila, where ya been? Didn't notice you were gone. 
quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada
Yet, I really believe that most pastors don't know what that even looks like outside of serving THEIR program. For most pastors, your gifting is "ushering," "greeting," "praying," and "singing" or "teaching a Sunday school class." The problem with all of these is this: they are all concieved of in terms as serving that church or pastor's plan which usually means, keeping the machine going (maintaining the levels they are already at) or growing their particular quota of people (physical church growth).
And your tithe has to go to their building. I'm witha buddy.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/8/2004 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/8/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/8/2004 10:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Hallelujah!!!
That's the first time I've said that word in years and meant it. This thread means so much to me. I am in the same situation right now. I think I don't ever want to set foot in another church again. But i still love Jesus and want fellowship with believers. It has taken me a while to let go of that old mentality that I have to warm a pew. All you're ever doing is looking at the backs of heads.
I was baptised when I was eighteen and for almost ten years now I have been in "ministry". I don't think I ever even got healed while in church, but I prepared lesson plans and illustrations that should have landed me a job in advertising. I quit it all and told the pastor that I was just going to be a Christian from now on. This season has been freeing. I just had to hear that others have gone through the same thing.
Laila and whoever else is experiencing the failure of faithful church attendance, be enouraged. The Holy Spirit is in us and we are in the world, together. Praise God. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 4/8/2004 5:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks all for responding. It helps to know there are others who feel similarly, and I thank you for your words and prayers.
That's interesting about your experience Don. I find it amazing that you are able to return to your former church to serve despite your continued discontent with the church leadership.
I honestly don't what to do about my own church discontent. Easter is in a few days. And I plan to attend take my family to church (though it's been about six weeks since we last attended) and I ask myself why. Why am I bothering? I guess my main motivation is my kids. I want them to grow up with religious traditions, in a church family, and surrounded by believers. Not that this necessarily will determine the choices they make as adults, but I think it is important for children to have some religious grounding -- quite the opposite from how I was raised as a child.
But beyond my children, why else do I go to church?
Fellowship? As I mentioned previously, most of my fellowship experiences have not been too positive. The small groups that are offered are usually based upon one's marital status and age of children (e.g., "Single 30s," "Parents of Preschoolers," "Young Marries without Kids"). That's fine when you want to exchange potty training stories (or not) but shouldn't Bible study groups be based on one's needs as a Christian?
When I first became a Christian and began attending church for the first time in my life, I had no idea how or when the Bible was written and compiled, and had a difficult time putting it altogether. The first small group study I attended focused on the fire and brimstone of revelation for weeks. I finally stopped going because it was too scary for me to handle. It was only by reading independently -- not any church-based effort -- that helped me with my steep learning curve.
And now, eight years later, I am still searching for that small group that can help me process this stuff. I try to read the Bible on my own and I find that extremely difficult, as it always leads me to more questions than answers. And how I wish I had the help of a small group to guide me through it. How do we reconcile the Old Testament with the New? How much of the Bible should be construed literally? etc. etc.
But all of my small group experiences gloss over this stuff. And I leave learning nothing, having even more questions, and feeling more and more detached from the group. And as far as friendships are concerned, I haven't seen too much of that "neighborly love" being exhibited either.
So why else go to church? Worship? This is another tough on for me. My church provides a contemporary worship service -- electric guitars, drums, popular music -- and lots of handclapping and outstretched arms. The music sounds great, but I feel more like I'm a spectator at a concert than a worship participant. I know some people love this style of worship, but I feel like a big fake. I go through the motions of standing when I'm supposed to, singing the words on the screen up front -- but there's nothing in my heart.
Sermons? I can get those anywhere. TV, radio, online.
So why don't I look around for a new church? I may, but I'm a little reluctuant. For one, it took us about six months to settle on our current church when we moved to the area three years ago. Every Sunday I would go out by myself and try out a different church. Our current church was the only one I visited more than once. From these experiences, I'm not too optimistic that things will be any different at a new church.
I also hesitate because I want my kids to feel secure in their church home, and not fear that we're going to change churches every few months. If I make a change, I want to make it whole-heartedly. My 6-year old has actually asked me several times when we were going to go back to church because she really misses it. I hate to take her back, then yank her out, start a new one, leave, and so on. I want to make a commitment to a church (or not) and stick with it.
Sorry for rambling here. But I know you guys "get it." Most of you seem to have a real spiritual maturity and ability to discern what's important, what's Biblical, and what's Godly in making such decisions. Your guidance is much appreciated. | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/9/2004 4:11 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/9/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila,
Whew! I hear ya. I think you must have asked about three or four times, “Why bother going to church?” As much as I feel unsatisfied with the way the church is run, I still NEED fellowship. I NEED to be with other Christians. And no matter how bleak the system looks, I will NOT let it discourage me to the point that I will stop fellowshipping with other believers. You may have to walk that road.
I have done exactly what you have done in the not to distant past. I looked at this and that church every Sunday. It is hard to make a sound decision based on one or two visits. It is almost as if you need to spend some time with those believers to “get a feel” for the decision you want to make.
On the one hand there is “this church problem.” On the other hand, there is YOU. There is ME. And there is this line that can be crossed where it ceases being a problem of the church and it really is about us. We begin to grow cold and hard in our hearts. And so this is something to watch out for and be sensitive to.
When I went up to see Clark Pinnock a few weeks ago I spoke to him about the materialism at my church. I said to him, “You know, I’m not going to find the perfect church. I don’t think that it exists.” Do you know what he said to me? He said, “I go to the PERFECT church. It is just wonderful. We have a live band. A woman leads it. Great music. We don’t have those kinds of problems with materialism.”
Now this kind of threw me for a loop. I have always thought that the “perfect” church did not exist. Yet, when Clark told me about his church being perfect, I know he wasn’t speaking “triumphalistically." He knows that we are on THIS side of heaven and so we will have issues and problems. However, I think the problems of materialism and the way the system is set up? These are not necessary to the church. In other words, there are churches out there that are based more on a New Testament model rather than that of modern North American Christianity which is based on business models of the corporations with the head honcho at the top and the rest below him. These are weaknesses in the church as a whole that need correcting just as in years past, there were weaknesses such as less emphasis on the Holy Spirit, women in ministry, etc. Either the system will correct itself (in a particular church or in the body of Christ as a whole) or one needs to go else where (find a church that is suited to their particular need).
Lastly, I hear what you mean about your taking your children to church and having to yank them out too. Hang in there. Don’t give up. Continue looking. Don't fall through the cracks. All in all, maybe that uneasiness in our hearts is there to move us out of our comfort zones.
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/9/2004 5:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Will the church ever wake up to the fact that many people are more involved in online communities than in face to face communities and start acting accordingly?
IMHO, the church is usually a decade or two behind the times.
Laika, online communities sounds cool, would you please lead us in our "Virtual Church" Easter service. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/9/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Laika, online communities sounds cool, would you please lead us in our "Virtual Church" Easter service.
You bet!
First, go out to the local feed lot and find the most unblemished lamb you can find.
Doh! Wait! No need for that anymore.....
First, go buy some chocolate bunnies at the grocery store.....
Chocolate bunnies, you're 2 funny!  There goes my fasting, oh well, I guess I will have to eat a few of those bunnies as an offering. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/9/2004 7:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Laika, online communities sounds cool, would you please lead us in our "Virtual Church" Easter service.
You bet!
First, go out to the local feed lot and find the most unblemished lamb you can find.
Doh! Wait! No need for that anymore.....
First, go buy some chocolate bunnies at the grocery store.....
Chocolate bunnies, you're 2 funny! There goes my fasting, oh well, I guess I will have to eat a few of those bunnies as an offering.
Do what I do, fast between meals....
Yea, when you think about it that adds up to a lot of fasting time, yea most of my life I have been fasting. And it could be considered a huge sacrifice to snack on chocolate bunnies in between meals. I’m stating to like you as our new “Virtual Church” leader.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/9/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/9/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Leila, I’m sorry to hear of your “spiritual depression”. I think we all can relate somewhat to the struggle of fitting into church. Don’s story can be an inspiration of how the church needs us more then we need the church. He could have just sat back and watched his church struggle, but instead he went back to run the sound system to the delight of many ears. We can not hide or rationalize by seeking personal security above the service of doing the will of God. We are all part of the body of Christ, it is the people that make up the church, we all have are own gifts to offer. I have found the best way to get out of a funk is by helping and serving others. Small groups can help us turn outwards towards others instead of inwards towards self. Solitude has its rightful place, but we are all called to love and that takes relationships!
"Alone you stood before God when he called you; alone you had to answer that call; alone you had to struggle and pray; and alone you will die and give an account to God." -Life Together, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
The Christian community is not the place where we can lose ourselves. We need to be our own men and women before God. As such we join the life of the church, not to run way from anything and least of all not to run away from ourselves. Instead, having found who we are in the light of God's redeeming love in Christ Jesus, we join the community to be enriched by it and to serve others in it. This fellowship will aid us in our journey, but should never take away our responsibility to face the challenges of life and the loneliness of death.
Like BBBCanada said: "I still NEED fellowship!"
"On the one hand there is “this church problem.” On the other hand, there is YOU. There is ME. And there is this line that can be crossed where it ceases being a problem of the church and it really is about us. We begin to grow cold and hard in our hearts. And so this is something to watch out for and be sensitive to."
For a new and different take on church and religion in general you might want to read the book “Love not Religion”.
God Bless,
Mark
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 4/15/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi all. I'm still mulling over my basic question here - why go to church? If the main reason is fellowship - which is what I hear you all saying - we can still have fellowship without the whole formal church experience. In my entire eight years of church-going, I don't think I've experienced genuine fellowship at church.
Brandon, I think you're right. A lot of this is about me and I can't blame the church for the state of my spiritual life. The two can be totally independent. But I do blame the church for not helping me -- and often hindering me -- in my spiritual growth. And that's when I ask myself, an I doing more harm than good by attending church? Should I attempt (once again) to find a different church? Just bite the bullet and keep going and try to make the best of it? Or just quit the whole church thing altogether and try to find a non-church alternative.
Wahoo, I'd be really interested to hear about your experience with church and what kind of fellowship community you have now. How has it been working for you? | | Back to Top | | |
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