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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/4/2004 4:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
THAT is a VERY excellent, and difficult,question Tigress.
There are three options.
* Traditional view:somehow we'll see the eternal torment is justly deserved and we'll rejoice in it.(Tertullian,Aquinas et al. suggested part of the joy of heaven will be witnessing the torments of the damned.)
* Annihilatioism:the wicked will be annihilated and we'll see the mercy and justice in it.
* Universalism: all will ultimately be saved. May take some a Looonnngggg white, but eventually all will be won over.
How doth thee vote?
gb
The traditionalist point of view I have always been taught was not that we would rejoice over the duly deserved suffering of the damned, but that:
Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
That is, God will heal our hearts of all emotional pain over any sorrow, crying, or pain that we must endure.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/4/2004 7:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
THAT is a VERY excellent, and difficult,question Tigress.
There are three options.
* Traditional view:somehow we'll see the eternal torment is justly deserved and we'll rejoice in it.(Tertullian,Aquinas et al. suggested part of the joy of heaven will be witnessing the torments of the damned.)
* Annihilatioism:the wicked will be annihilated and we'll see the mercy and justice in it.
* Universalism: all will ultimately be saved. May take some a Looonnngggg white, but eventually all will be won over.
How doth thee vote?
gb
Dr Boyd,
The first option is not one that fits the character of the Jesus that I have come to know thus far and love. I abhor that possibility.
The second is difficult for me as well.
I wish with all my heart that three is possible, but know that it's not because all have not, and will not, choose Him.
There must be another option?  Please tell me there's another option!
What about us not witnessing this? No wonder this is never talked about. I have a book by Peter Kreeft called "Heaven - The Heart's Deepest Longing" It looks like a wonderful book (right after Philip Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" (another wonderful book!)
Too many books! So little time! 
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/4/2004 7:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
THAT is a VERY excellent, and difficult,question Tigress.
There are three options.
* Traditional view:somehow we'll see the eternal torment is justly deserved and we'll rejoice in it.(Tertullian,Aquinas et al. suggested part of the joy of heaven will be witnessing the torments of the damned.)
* Annihilatioism:the wicked will be annihilated and we'll see the mercy and justice in it.
* Universalism: all will ultimately be saved. May take some a Looonnngggg white, but eventually all will be won over.
How doth thee vote?
gb
The traditionalist point of view I have always been taught was not that we would rejoice over the duly deserved suffering of the damned, but that:
Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
That is, God will heal our hearts of all emotional pain over any sorrow, crying, or pain that we must endure.
Thank you John - for your "fourth option." This one I could imagine.
"No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those wholove him." 1 Cor. 2:9 (that can't possibly include watching our loved ones suffer)
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/5/2004 1:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tigress,
The way I myself have been able to reconcile this within is first in knowing that God is a merciful, loving, and just God. God does not want any to perish. If someone refuses God's love (even at their very last breath of life) then it is them and NOT God who chose. God gives us every opportunity to accept and believe. I believe that God wants so desperately for people to chose life that he does everything possible even up to their last breath of life.
I also believe that those who are in heaven will NOT remember those who did not chose to accept God's love. It would not be heaven for me to know that some are perishing.
I also know that I am not God and that God sees what we do not. God knows the heart of each person and knows the reasons for their unbelief. If your brother is struggling with God perhaps it is due to some scars from the past and he blames God for them? God knows and judges each heart individually and we will NEVER know who does or doesn't make it into heaven. I believe we will be surprised.
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 6/6/2004 11:23 PM (GMT -6) | | | I would also recommend having a look at Glenn Miller's piece on this at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/painnow.html which advocates a view quite similar to that which CS Lewis expresses in 'The Great Divorce' - it doesn't line up with any of the views presented so far, there is no revelling in the divine justice, but there is also no being held 'emotional hostage' to those who refuse to come in and join the party.... | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 6/7/2004 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Would you explain what you mean by "being held 'emotional hostage' to those who refuse to come in and join the party"?
Sure, sorry for being unclear, I tend to assume the because I understand something in a certain way in my head with certain concepts that other people automatically see it the same way as me.
'emotional hostage' is really the idea that someone else, through their free will choices can have some sort of hold upon your emotions, that they have something of you within their power.
'those who refuse to come in and join the party' is really referring back to one of the illustrations that Jesus uses in the gospels about the banquet to which everyone is invited, using this as an illustration for heaven in this case. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/10/2004 11:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tigress:So, I guess if we do mourn over our lost loved ones in heaven, we'll be mourning them with God. Maybe that's when He'll be wiping our tears away. I wonder if God will still be sad for eternity over the lost. Jesus will always have the physical scars of the crucifixion for eternity so I'm sure His emotions would be the same way - taking on our negative feelings so that we won't have to deal with them anymore.
In heaven there will be no more sadness, sickness, mourning.... I believe those who do not make it (due to THEIR choice) will not be remembered any longer. The thought of heaven is so amazing isn't it? I love the song "I Can Only Imagine" and when I hear it I often imagine what it will be like. I believe heaven will be paradise as promised. It's exciting to look forward to some day! | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/12/2004 1:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Tigress:So, I guess if we do mourn over our lost loved ones in heaven, we'll be mourning them with God. Maybe that's when He'll be wiping our tears away. I wonder if God will still be sad for eternity over the lost. Jesus will always have the physical scars of the crucifixion for eternity so I'm sure His emotions would be the same way - taking on our negative feelings so that we won't have to deal with them anymore.
In heaven there will be no more sadness, sickness, mourning.... I believe those who do not make it (due to THEIR choice) will not be remembered any longer. The thought of heaven is so amazing isn't it? I love the song "I Can Only Imagine" and when I hear it I often imagine what it will be like. I believe heaven will be paradise as promised. It's exciting to look forward to some day!
Today is our son's graduation day, so I'll just reply quickly, as this caught my attention.
I never thought of this before now, but if we are made in the image of God...and we are, then we will still experience the things that He experiences right? I know He laughs and crys, gets angry, is grieved, surprised, disappointed... So, if He experiences those things now, why wouldn't we continue to experience them - although they may be quite a different experience than what we are thinking they will be. 
Perhaps all those things will be qualitatively different? Does that make any sense?
I love the song "I could Only Imagine." We sang it as a worship team for a young lady who was leaving our worship team, moving away. She was so moved by it that she is having it as part of her wedding. She is bringing her husband up next week to meet us all.
It is one of the most beautiful songs of intimacy with Him that I have heard.
God Bless,
1 Cor 2:9 says that it will be beyond all we can imagine.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 6/13/2004 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I never thought of this before now, but if we are made in the image of God...and we are, then we will still experience the things that He experiences right? I know He laughs and crys, gets angry, is grieved, surprised, disappointed... So, if He experiences those things now, why wouldn't we continue to experience them - although they may be quite a different experience than what we are thinking they will be
Yes indeedy...Well 2 points I would make.
1) We don't know to what degree the Lord experiences all of these now - he may have within the eternal fellowship of the Trinity an eternal state of loving Joy which whilst it acknowledges these emotions, is yet solid enough to transcend them.
2) Part of his anger/sadness etc. may be due to seeing people whom he loves and who loves him experiencing pain and suffering - the evil of the world victimising the good, and in seeing those within whom there is still a potential for love sliding further and further away. Perhaps in heaven where everything is complete, and where total justice is restored the situation will be different.
I think that perhaps the character of Gollum in Lord of The Rings is worth looking at for an illustration here, whilst there is still a shadow of good in him you can take pity on and empathise with that aspect of him...but if he were to be totally consumed by the hating, selfish side would you still do so? I don't know. It becomes more a sense of regret than anything else.
Anyway, that's a few thoughts. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/14/2004 1:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by markporter
quote:
I never thought of this before now, but if we are made in the image of God...and we are, then we will still experience the things that He experiences right? I know He laughs and crys, gets angry, is grieved, surprised, disappointed... So, if He experiences those things now, why wouldn't we continue to experience them - although they may be quite a different experience than what we are thinking they will be
Yes indeedy...Well 2 points I would make.
1) We don't know to what degree the Lord experiences all of these now - he may have within the eternal fellowship of the Trinity an eternal state of loving Joy which whilst it acknowledges these emotions, is yet solid enough to transcend them.
2) Part of his anger/sadness etc. may be due to seeing people whom he loves and who loves him experiencing pain and suffering - the evil of the world victimising the good, and in seeing those within whom there is still a potential for love sliding further and further away. Perhaps in heaven where everything is complete, and where total justice is restored the situation will be different.
I think that perhaps the character of Gollum in Lord of The Rings is worth looking at for an illustration here, whilst there is still a shadow of good in him you can take pity on and empathise with that aspect of him...but if he were to be totally consumed by the hating, selfish side would you still do so? I don't know. It becomes more a sense of regret than anything else.
Anyway, that's a few thoughts.
Gollum is my favourite character. There is a little "Gollum" in each of us, and He STILL loves us with His unfathomable love! Amazing!
Good illustration.
I've always thought that one of the most powerful verses in the New Testament was, "Jesus wept." It is a mystery to me, how the Lord can experience the depth of human emotions (being fully human and fully God), yet still not sin.
Actually, today I read something that answered that I think, and I am still considering it. It is because of our perceived sense of "lack" as Christians that we sin when we are tempted. Jesus was tempted, but knew who He was, who His identity was with the Father, and He knew what was available to Him as the Father's Son. Perhaps what we really have when we sin, is an identity crisis?
I do know one thing, the enemy loves to persuade us that we are "lacking" something, and as a result, we don't "Qualify." That's what he did to Eve. She didn't lack a thing (until she thought she did, then she lacked a true picture of who she was, and what was available to her). Make sense?
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/16/2004 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by markporter
quote:
I never thought of this before now, but if we are made in the image of God...and we are, then we will still experience the things that He experiences right? I know He laughs and crys, gets angry, is grieved, surprised, disappointed... So, if He experiences those things now, why wouldn't we continue to experience them - although they may be quite a different experience than what we are thinking they will be
Yes indeedy...Well 2 points I would make.
1) We don't know to what degree the Lord experiences all of these now - he may have within the eternal fellowship of the Trinity an eternal state of loving Joy which whilst it acknowledges these emotions, is yet solid enough to transcend them.
2) Part of his anger/sadness etc. may be due to seeing people whom he loves and who loves him experiencing pain and suffering - the evil of the world victimising the good, and in seeing those within whom there is still a potential for love sliding further and further away. Perhaps in heaven where everything is complete, and where total justice is restored the situation will be different.
I think that perhaps the character of Gollum in Lord of The Rings is worth looking at for an illustration here, whilst there is still a shadow of good in him you can take pity on and empathise with that aspect of him...but if he were to be totally consumed by the hating, selfish side would you still do so? I don't know. It becomes more a sense of regret than anything else.
Anyway, that's a few thoughts.
Gollum is my favourite character. There is a little "Gollum" in each of us, and He STILL loves us with His unfathomable love! Amazing!
Good illustration.
I've always thought that one of the most powerful verses in the New Testament was, "Jesus wept." It is a mystery to me, how the Lord can experience the depth of human emotions (being fully human and fully God), yet still not sin.
Actually, today I read something that answered that I think, and I am still considering it. It is because of our perceived sense of "lack" as Christians that we sin when we are tempted. Jesus was tempted, but knew who He was, who His identity was with the Father, and He knew what was available to Him as the Father's Son. Perhaps what we really have when we sin, is an identity crisis?
I do know one thing, the enemy loves to persuade us that we are "lacking" something, and as a result, we don't "Qualify." That's what he did to Eve. She didn't lack a thing (until she thought she did, then she lacked a true picture of who she was, and what was available to her). Make sense?
Jo-Anne
Brilliant!
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/16/2004 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
THAT is a VERY excellent, and difficult,question Tigress.
There are three options.
* Traditional view:somehow we'll see the eternal torment is justly deserved and we'll rejoice in it.(Tertullian,Aquinas et al. suggested part of the joy of heaven will be witnessing the torments of the damned.)
* Annihilatioism:the wicked will be annihilated and we'll see the mercy and justice in it.
* Universalism: all will ultimately be saved. May take some a Looonnngggg white, but eventually all will be won over.
How doth thee vote?
gb
I don't see this list as covering every possible view.
Greg likes "Annihilatioism." But, I don't see that reflected anywhere but in "modern" thought. What "Father" of the Church thought that?
God is Life. Ditch all juridicisms/punishements. Grasp that God is Light -- and that it is "hell" to be in the presence of intense Love when that is what you want to flee from (pretty much the Orthodox view), and you have something that is in none of the three Doc offerec.
But, DON'T presume that one can possibly flee FROM Christ without running TO CHRIST. Who's to say that your Dad isn't inching towards Christ.
Re-read C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce." That's pretty much Orthodox too. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/17/2004 3:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
THAT is a VERY excellent, and difficult,question Tigress.
There are three options.
* Traditional view:somehow we'll see the eternal torment is justly deserved and we'll rejoice in it.(Tertullian,Aquinas et al. suggested part of the joy of heaven will be witnessing the torments of the damned.)
* Annihilatioism:the wicked will be annihilated and we'll see the mercy and justice in it.
* Universalism: all will ultimately be saved. May take some a Looonnngggg white, but eventually all will be won over.
How doth thee vote?
gb
I don't see this list as covering every possible view.
Greg likes "Annihilatioism." But, I don't see that reflected anywhere but in "modern" thought. What "Father" of the Church thought that?
God is Life. Ditch all juridicisms/punishements. Grasp that God is Light -- and that it is "hell" to be in the presence of intense Love when that is what you want to flee from (pretty much the Orthodox view), and you have something that is in none of the three Doc offerec.
But, DON'T presume that one can possibly flee FROM Christ without running TO CHRIST. Who's to say that your Dad isn't inching towards Christ.
Re-read C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce." That's pretty much Orthodox too.
POW,
Thanks for your interesting view on hell.
It sounds kind of like there is an annoying night light left on in hell. A constant reminder of the love the condemned choose to escape from. Like leaving a scolded child isolated at the window of the playground.
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 6/23/2004 9:32 AM (GMT -6) | | There is another theory that exists which says that we will literally "forget" about those people.
The question of experiencing joy/happiness/etc. regarding loved ones can be extended into a general question of how we will deal with past pains.
For example, how will I react to some serious sins I made on earth. Would I either not remember them altogether, or just the eventual positive outcome that came with forgiveness and reconciliation? I find it hard to believe that David would be saying to others, "Yeah, remember that time I had an affair with Bathesheba and killed her husband...?"
A more plausible explanation would be that in Heaven, we would dwell only on the good things and "forget" the bad things. Like when we are in the presence of someone we care deeply about, we don't have in the forefront of our minds all the wrongs they have committed against us.
Of course, this "amnesia" solution presents some objections. One would be how it is possible to forget someone you cared deeply about on earth (like a parent or spouse) entirely. Even if you dwelled on only the good memories, the thought might come across your mind then as to "Where are they then. I don't see them here?"
Perhaps even a MORE general question is, "Do those in Heaven once there (not including Angels), have any awareness of Hell at all that point? If that memory is erased, then the question may not come up at all. In the presence of Christ and His followers, the feeling of "missing" someone may be dwarfed so much by the glories of Heaven that is essentially non-existent.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 6/25/2004 9:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Something just doesn't feel right about God erasing memories. I don't think passages about God forgetting our sin are necessarily literal. I think it's at least possible that Is. 65:16 could mean that former troubles don't happen any longer, so we don't have to worry about them. I know in my life it brings me great happiness to remember times that seemed unbearable, but somehow God gave me victory. That's happiness that I would lose if I forgot all the pain. Look at passages like Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21. I think they lend support to the idea that
quote:
we will still experience the things that He experiences right? I know He laughs and crys, gets angry, is grieved, surprised, disappointed... So, if He experiences those things now, why wouldn't we continue to experience them - although they may be quite a different experience than what we are thinking they will be.
Perhaps all those things will be qualitatively different? Does that make any sense?
Isaiah 65 and Rev. 21 seem to paint the picture that things will be familiar but good. I guess that leans toward the othodox view if any. Or maybe it's more like John's "Wipe away Tears" idea.
I don't know. It's mostly guesswork. One painful memory from earth I don't think we will forget: those holes in Jesus' hands, feet, and side.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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