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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/5/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | As 1 John 3:15 reveals that "no murderer has eternal life abiding in him," then it necessarily follows that those professing to be a follower of Christ who put their enemies to death were obviously hypocrites and not true Christians. (BTW, this includes John Calvin, the leaders of the Spanish Inquisition, and any other so-called "Christian" who would use coercion to enforce "orthodoxy.")
Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but by {their} deeds they deny {Him,} being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Matt 7:21 ¶ "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.}
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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cbost6421
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 65
| Posted 7/6/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/9/2004 1:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Like Sahid said, its not that the disciples were willing to die for their FAITH that is impressive. People do this all the time. It was that they were willing to die for their CLAIMS -- viz. to have seen Jesus do miracles, make divine claims, rise from the dead.
THAT should get our attention.
About Christians putting people to death... I would simply point out to your friend that religious people of all stripes do this all the time. What their particular stipe (profession) happens to be is inconsequential. I would tell them that you have no more stake in what religious peolple do than what politicians or cucumbers do. You can always tell the Kingdom of God -- as distinct from "Christendom" and all religious professions -- by how it looks. It always, by definition, looks like Jesus Christ. Hence, the true Kingdom fo God has never put people to death. Rather, many Kingdom followers were the one's put to death.
Finally, just FYI, the Da Vinci code is the silliest thing on the planet when it comes ot history. No Christian put anyone to death until 381, the year after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. The Da Vinci code makes some GLARING ridiculous historical mistakes.
* thinks the council of Nicea was about the Bible.(it was about the divinity of Christ)
* thinks the Dead Sea Scrolls were among the original chrisitan documents (written more than a century before Jesus!)
* thinks the original (gnostic) gospels had a purely human Jesus (that follow the Gospels by several hundred years and have a LESS "human" Jesus than the Gospels)
* thinks our present Bible was given by Constantine and others in the 3d century (we can reproduce almost the entire NT from quotes from fathers in the first 3 centuries... p;lace we have ancient mss. dating to the 2nd century, plus the Muratorian canon of 160's containing all but several of the books in our present canon, etc...)
Have your friend read Darrell Bock's book, Breaking the Da Vinci code.
Later
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/9/2004 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg: Finally, just FYI, the Da Vinci code is the silliest thing on the planet when it comes to history.
Tom: Second only to Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 411" (oops, 911). 
Tom
(This post paid for by the Bush-Cheney '04 Election Committee) | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/9/2004 8:18 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You can always tell the Kingdom of God -- as distinct from "Christendom" and all religious professions -- by how it looks. It always, by definition, looks like Jesus Christ. Hence, the true Kingdom fo God has never put people to death. Rather, many Kingdom followers were the one's put to death.
I AGREE! I was just reading an article on the Internet and came upon this taken from a site that discusses the Wiccan religion, "True Christianity does not seek to harm its neighbour, but rather seeks to obey the commandment of Christ which states: "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" (Mark 12:31). True Christians have had a life changing experience with Jesus Christ and would certainly seek to distance themselves from all violence, hate, and persecution of others. The very fact that someone labels themselves 'Christian' does not always automatically mean that they are a true follower of Jesus Christ, no matter who he or she may be. Indeed, the Bible even warns us that false Christians will come and attempt to bring shame upon the message of the Gospel of Jesus"
From what I've read many who leave or reject the Christian faith do so because of the hypocrites within the church and the so called "Christians" who are dressed up in wolves clothing.
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Jim Mottl
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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/11/2004 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
From what I've read many who leave or reject the Christian faith do so because of the hypocrites within the church and the so called "Christians" who are dressed up in wolves clothing.
Quest - I seem to be bumping into this type of thinking lately, and it is really frustrating. I'm not looking for it - honest. The idea that someone would reject Jesus Christ based on what it's (supposed)followers do is the excuse that the people rejecting Christ use. They reject Christ because they do not have the right motive for coming to him in the first place. I am not denying that it happens, but I am rejecting your claim that these had a faith to begin with, which when you say "leave the faith" presupposes that they had one. Listen, a few months ago Greg stood up and said that he got racist hate mail from people that actually go to his chuch, Woodland Hills. This is because he preached on racial reconciliation. If an african american person said, "well you call this a Christian church?" and they left the church that would not be Greg's fault, and any attempt to blame Greg and reject the church would be absurd.
That is why it is so important to preach a law before Gospel message, so there isn't a chance for false conversions. The problem today is that people don't see how sinful they really are. The Christian message(salvation)today has no demands. It does not involve taking Jesus as Lord, but rather just has us taking Him as Savior. But Quest I totally get what you are saying! People blashpheme God for things it's followers do, I get that, but I also think the understanding that a person of a genuine faith has won't allow itself to reject the faith it professes because it was placed in God to begin with.
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/12/2004 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The idea that someone would reject Jesus Christ based on what it's (supposed)followers do is the excuse that the people rejecting Christ use. They reject Christ because they do not have the right motive for coming to him in the first place. I am not denying that it happens, but I am rejecting your claim that these had a faith to begin with, which when you say "leave the faith" presupposes that they had one.
I was raised a Catholic. I loved God with my heart yet did not know that I could have a personal relationship with him until I was in my teens. My idea of Christ was absolutely defined by what I saw modeled in the attenders and leaders of my church. MANY people I know have missed the point or have never known that we cannot define Christ through other Christians. Many understand Christianity through what is role modeled. Christ said "When we do it for the least of our brother/sister we do it for him." The opposite is also true -- when we do not reach out in love we are making an impression on those who are seeking Him. Perhaps those who walk away have a small amount of faith. Perhaps they have not been completely regenerated by the Spirit but I would NOT say they do not have faith.
Does this help you understand what I am saying? | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/12/2004 6:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
On one level rejecting God and not understanding God are the same thing. If we understand that God is perfect for us and that He will give us the deepest conceivable happiness and more, how is it even possible to want to reject God. I can't image a person so crazy or sick or lied to who wouldn't accept God if he knew that God would give such deep joy. If someone felt that they didn't deserve these good things but understood God, she would know that God agrees and still loves her
Sometimes people are blinded from the truth. The truth will set us free BUT we need to know the truth. Satan is great at working within the church to sabatoge truth with lies. | | Back to Top | | |
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