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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 7/10/2004 1:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | **All apologies if this question/discussion has already been raised on this site. If so, I'd appreciate it very muchos if someone could link to the relevant thread.**
Does the concept of an omnipotent god defy logic?
After a runaround discussion on another forum regarding the indefatigable and pointless “unliftable rock” scenario, this statement was offered as the ultimate rebuttal. The idea or logic of any version of god is beside the point, the opponent in question stated:
quote:
Logic is a method of demonstrating the truth (or at least consistency) of a certain set of statements. It is not some outside force that we are trying to push god into. Anything that is can be part of a logical argument.
What you seem to be missing is that the reason omnipotence doesn't work in the logical argument is not because omnipotence is beyond logic, but rather that omnipotence is a meaningless term with no semantic value. It is completely self-contradictory and absurd. No one can justify it, so you simply assert and leave it at that. Why, then, do you believe it? Reason is the way we understand the world. Whether you believe that reason is an evolved survival mechanism or a divine gift, it's still all we have. When you abandon reason, you've abandoned any interest in the truth.
So, does the concept of an omnipotent god (or god himself, or omnipotence itself) defy logic?
Also, can reason ever be used as a position of persuasion when witnessing about God? Isn’t faith required? Therefore, isn’t any position that relies on reason or logic going to be disappointed when dealing with the concept of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god?
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/10/2004 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | A Mennonite college president who lead a national evangelical higher education organization in Washington D.C. said -- in addition to how elections in D.C. mean one group of crooks chases another out -- that all people in that international, multicultural city have the same four (4) questions
- Who am I?
- What is this?
- What went wrong?
- What can be done about it?
NO ONE ASKS ABOUT "ROCKS!"
Everyone from communists to voodoo-ists asks number three.
But the answers all fit into one of two groups. In one "I" AM god. And in the other I am NOT!
So, in our actions (by commition or ommition) How do YOU/I answer those questions. And are you/I god? | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/10/2004 10:17 PM (GMT -6) | | | I wish I could answer your question but I don't know how to. The one thing I know is that "Faith is the substance of things NOT seen, the evidence of things hoped for." We cannot see faith yet it is not a meaningless term. We have faith in that which we cannot understand. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/10/2004 11:14 PM (GMT -6) | | The rock paradox is based on the fallacious assumption that anything can ever be greater or bigger than God (to heavy to lift, for example).
In addition, everyone qualifies these attributes of God in some way. For instance, no one who has really thought about it would ever say that because God knows all things that this means he knows 2 + 2 = 5. Because the equation is false, God doesn't know it as true.
The simple law of non-contradiction seems to my mind to always hold true, no matter who we are talking about; that is, something cannot be both A and non-A at the same time. For instance, God cannot both exist and not exist at the same time, He cannot create and not create the same thing instantaneously in the same place. He cannot love and not love the whole world at the same time. Etc., etc.
Yes, Reason has a very important role to play in apologetics and evangelism. In this day and age, people won't just swallow pat answers. The worst pat answer of all has GOT to be the anti-intellectual and irrational, "Well, we just can't understand God with our puny little human minds, God's a mystery--just take this by faith" Such a cop-out reveals a sadly deficient understanding of both reason and faith.
Faith is not, as the 5-year-old boy said, "Believing something even if you know it's not true." Precisely the opposite--faith is submitting to perceived truth and acting on that truth.
People in the information age want answers to tough questions. In my opinion, the Open View and Moral Government Theology give the most logically satisfying answers of all the systems of religion I've had a chance to examine thus far. That said, logical argumentation alone will not be likely to ever convert a true skeptic, for he is by definition committed in his heart and will NOT to believe. This is where prayer comes in in witness, that the prevenient grace of God would do its work of preparing hearts for receiving the gospel.
Speaking for myself, it also helps quite a lot that I was raised in a Christian home, in which God was very much assumed to both exist and to be benevolent. Questioning the existence of God has never really been a serious concern of mine; the world would simply not make sense at all if there were no God.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 7/11/2004 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DON'T BORE ME!
Hi, my name's squint...you must be Richard.
I didn't realize I was here to entertain you...I'm certainly not here to applaud whatever mix of intellect and rationale you think you represent...also, I'm not here to debate "rocks". I am here to learn, and as such, I'm learning already. Like, just now, I learned that YOU are like school in the summertime...NO CLASS! I love Fat Albert. Obee-Kaybee.
I enjoy meeting such mental giants like yourself, especially when they lower themselves to such a tolerant level. Truly, I had no idea you were so close to God. Make sure you watch your wings there Icky.
Next time I'll bring a pad of paper and one of those nifty, click-type pencils so I can take good notes. Wait...wait...how do you spell "big old stupid head"? Should it be hyphenated?
quote:
Rock, my A**.
It"s a good thing you inserted that comma and those asterisks...otherwise, who knows what people might think.
Really, are you that much of a pansy that you couldn't type out "ass"? I mean, come on, I won't be offended. The irony is that you covered up the word "ass"--I presume because you wanted to avoid offense--but you still posted this pile of stinking drivel. You should have asterisked the whole response.
quote:
A Mennonite college president who lead a national evangelical higher education organization in Washington D.C. said -- in addition to how elections in D.C. mean one group of crooks chases another out -- that all people in that international, multicultural city have the same four (4) questions
„h Who am I?
„h What is this?
„h What went wrong?
„h What can be done about it?
A Minnesota college president once spoke of a gnat getting too close to a blowtorch as some metaphor relating to the existence of god -- in addition to the pointless idea that a gnat only lives for a week or so, why bother with blowtorches, let 'em bite and then swat...no need to singe the bugger -- and by so doing those in attendance asked the same (4) questions
- Is this guy's name really Richard?
- Why wo*ld s*meone u*e asterisks to co*er up a su**osed cuss?
- Does this shirt match with these socks?
- Can I call you Dick?
quote:
NO ONE ASKS ABOUT "ROCKS!"
Who the hell cares about rocks? I don't care about rocks, do you? This guy doesn't either. We're all with you, man.
I think I pointed out the futility of the whole scenario. Why so glum, chum? Did somebody mix arsenic in with your bath water?
Geez, I'm not even a troll and I already feel so welcome. Thanks guys, I'm glad I ascribe more to open theism, otherwise I might blame God for your free-will choice of being an arse...sorry, a**e.
quote:
Everyone from communists to voodoo-ists asks number three.
I'm afraid I'm neither a communist nor a voodoo-ist...rather, some eclectic amalgamation of the two along with a bit of garlic and a touch of Mick-Kraut excitement. Regardless, I find myself asking an eclectic amalgamation of questions one, three, and four. Simply, "Who am went wrong done about it?"
quote:
But the answers all fit into one of two groups. In one "I" AM god. And in the other I am NOT!
OHHHH! Now I see where you're heading with this...
Nope...I lied...I don't.
quote:
How do YOU answer those questions...
Well, if I weren't an eclectic amalgamation, I'd probably do so in this manner:
- I'm sometimesisquint, of the cheesehead squinting clan, husband of Heather and witness to the aforementioned spectacle of arse-like proportions you are producing.
- This is a discussion board. (These aren't very good questions...you sure you weren't bored by your own story?)
- Well, some might say that the injury to Sam Cassell really hurt the Wolves and their chances, but I think they still could've won the series. We just couldn't hit a jumper. Garnett can only do so much, you know?
- Well, next year we'll regroup, hopefully Hudson will be healthy and we can resign him to a nice contract (looking doubtful at the moment) and he'll be able to provide some help off the bench. Either way, we've got to get rid of Derrick Martin. I think we can still fit Hassell under the cap as well, and since Spree is staying and Shaq is moving to Miami, I think we can take the West.
quote:
And are you god?
Nope. I'm a meaningless speck trying his dam*edest to figure out how tight your panties are twisted and why.
Wait...you didn't answer my question about the rocks. You silly goose.
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
---
When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 7/11/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Truthfully, my question had absolutely nothing to do with the "rock scenario" other than to establish the motivation for and foundation of the question.
My beliefs don't hinge on this answer. I was curious, thought it could spark something. My question is simply, "Is the concept of omnipotence possible within the confines of Logic?" It doesn't hinder a question of faith...not even for this fellow, he seems far enough removed that even a large rock (sent from heaven) landing on his big toe wouldn't convince him of the existence of Haysoose. I just found it an interesting question. And, ultimately, if God can defy logic by his very existence, then it leaves more room for claims contrary to the Open View. Most importantly, if God can defy logic, why can't he defy the constructs of time?
That was all, nothing major, no life-changing, faith-altering questions...just curious. Next time, I'll post multiple threads attacking Dr. Boyd's latest book by claims of Necromancy and then I'll feel like I'm part of the "crew".
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
---
When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 7/11/2004 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Squint: Does the concept of an omnipotent god defy logic?
Tom: No, it doesn't. What supposed problem is there in affirming both?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/11/2004 4:42 PM (GMT -6) | | In 1993, Mennonite college president (Dr. Myron Augsburger) who lead a national evangelical higher education organization (the CCCU) in Washington D.C. said -- in addition to how elections in D.C. mean one group of crooks (Dems.) chases another out (Reps.) -- that all people in that international, multicultural city have the same four (4) questions:
- Who am I?
- What is this?
- What went wrong?
- What can be done about it?
Depending on the concept of god, god may be creator, or may not. May be purposefully responsible, or accidentally liable. May be imminant, like agrarian deities. Or, may be completely removed, like sky dieties. No matter. The same four questions stem from US. From our point of view. | | Back to Top | | |
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 7/11/2004 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Squint: Does the concept of an omnipotent god defy logic?
Tom: No, it doesn't. What supposed problem is there in affirming both?
Tom
I'm not sure there is. I think the point this gentlemen was making was that omnipotence (and God for that matter) cannot be justified or defined within a "logical" framework or construct, therefore the term itself (along with the concept) is both meaningless and illogical (literally). For instance, there are certain things I can do that God cannot (be born, die, call himself sometimesisquint and mean it). I've heard that bunk before, I believe it's as often used as the "If God was..." scenario. It's a ridiculous argument, one that brings to mind the whole "ROCKS!" idea. Alas, 2+2 does equal five to some people.
All apologies for the vague assertions...just disregard. Thanks for trying anyway, as much as it might have seemed more constructive to chop off a few fingers...I think the question has been answered sufficiently.
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
---
When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/12/2004 1:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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