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ACTIONS do speak louder than words. However, this does NOT mean that the words go away...especially when the words are TESTIMONIAL!

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I’m not personally discouraging all attempts at expressing or sharing one’s faith and beliefs at all. I think we should be open with what we believe with anyone who desires to hear.

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Our primary charge is to love people. Loving others (via social action-see Matt.25:31-46) is the mandate which Jesus consistently calls for above all else (the greatest command), but this is continually fudged by Christians who claim that “evangelism” equates to loving others. It does not and it can and often does lead to the opposite effect. Christians continually put the cart in front of the horse on this one.

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Many people, including me, would not have found a relationship with God unless someone had actually initiated a dialogue with me about it

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But even Christian social services get this wrong! I've worked with homeless for years and to share all the stories I've heard of homeless men, women, and youth wanting a meal desperately, but actually rejecting it because they felt so used as people because they knew they would be forcibly subjected to a sermon afterwards. They felt they were being manipulated, and rightly so! They were! How inhumane! They’d rather go hungry than feel used. We should give with no expectation of return, no obligation, nothing. I am reminded of the lepors Jesus healed...only one came back to thank him. Great! Be thankful for the one. I wouldn’t object to there being an optional service where, after a meal, willing participants could listen to testimonies...heck! the homeless should share their own testimonies! I'm sure the preachers and Christians there would get a hell of a lot more out of it!

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AMEN! I totally agree with your thoughts,Empiress! Preach it

BJS:

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But let's be clear here. Actions speak louder than words, but words are not unimportant. Many people, including me, would not have found a relationship with God unless someone had actually initiated a dialogue with me about it and forced me to start asking myself questions that I would not have asked otherwise

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Empiress:

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I’m not personally discouraging all attempts at expressing or sharing one’s faith and beliefs at all. I think we should be open with what we believe with anyone who desires to hear.

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Starkman:

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No, we are not to stop lovingly, caringly and truthfully share - yes, with those who will lend an ear, of course, and not force it upon others - the real, space-time-historical message: you must be born again.

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I am so appreciative to read what you all
shared because these are my sentiments exactly in the context of personal evangelism. It appears that the KEY to effective personal evangelism is presenting the gospel message to those who DESIRE TO HEAR. We are of course called to LOVE EVERYONE regardless of whether they want to hear our convictions and our faith.


Actions DO speak MUCH louder than words.
I have found that those who I have shared the gospel message with, and who have accepted Christ as a consequence, are those who invited me to do so NOT me shoving it at them whether they wanted to hear it or not.

I just had to chime in,
trosie














"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown

Edited by - trosie on 01/16/2002 08:58:14 AM

Edited by - trosie on 01/16/2002 09:02:35 AM

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Jewgrass: If no one's seeking God, how does evangelism work at all? Ultimately people have to be seeking God on some level to begin with! How much more so when they've been touched by an act of love or healed by the hand of Jesus? In fact, when we act in love, we become incarnations of Christ to people.

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BJS and Starkman: You didn't really understand my post. I'm not advocating silence. Maybe you could re-read it. I'm speaking of motive, form, and priorities...of sharing what one believes in the right context and way.

As to BJS' question: If I really love someone, I show them love. It's simple. I will not be silent or hide what I believe, but I do not coerce or seek to convert them to accept my beliefs either. The two are not mutually exclusive. I do my part and leave the rest up to God. I refuse to play "Holy Spirit" in someone's life. That's God's job.

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Perhaps we are ships passing in the night here. I certainly agree with you that forcing the Gospel down someone's throat is neither moral nor effective. I believe, as you do, that we must share what we believe "in the right context and way." That is proper evangelism. So if you are for that, then you are not, as the title to this thread states, "against evangelism." What you are against is "coercion." Well, of course. I don't think anyone here thinks we should be using Constantine's method of "evangelism."

But you also object to "seeking to convert [others] to accept [one's] beliefs." This, I think, goes too far the other way, and is likely a position you take only because you are a universalist. If you did believe, as many do, that a relationship with God can only come through Jesus Christ, then a genuine love for others would compel you to bring that message to as many people as possible, whether they have explicitly asked you about it or not (but NOT "forcing" or "coercing" anyone to hear it). As a universalist, though, you do not feel this sense of urgency. In fact, as I believe you say on your website, you do not feel that witnessing is at all necessary.

Enjoying the dialogue.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

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If perfect love casts out fear, and God is perfect love, then I believe we can fully trust in God's perfect love in dealing with his creatures

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This is why I find is absolutely imperative to talk about what "love" and "benevolence" as it relates to OMNIBENEVOLENCE entail. One can take many roads depending on how one defines and delimits what these concepts are. For those who think I'm belaboring the omnibenevolence subject.



Empiress said:

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I see that a person simply not buying into modern day Christianity is not necessarily a fault...in fact, it may be a choice made in righteousness given the state of the church. If you "reject" Jesus because you see the hypocrisy and evil in his followers...then you haven't rejected Jesus, you've rejected evil. If you "reject" Jesus because you see the close mindedness of his followers and you value the objective and open search for truth, you haven't rejected Jesus, you've rejected non-truth seeking. When I hear why people reject Christianity, these are the kinds of reasons I hear. People have good reasons for doing so and I believe a God of love will honor those reasons.

Conversely, many people "accept" Christianity out of fear or because they were raised "Christian" and are too lazy to even evaluate their own beliefs. And yet these people are more "righteous" than non-believers who have good reasons!?? This is illogical.

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Though I somewhat disagree with what a "God of love" will honor, I completely agree with your assessment of faith existence. Better to be an honest, contemplative non-believer who lives in integrity with her beliefs...than to be a dishonest, facile, scared "believer" who has little more than INHERITED faith.



Empiress said:

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The other reason for being a Universalist is it's the only way in ministry that people can focus on loving people and stop trying to constantly manipulate them to accept their beliefs. (Because it is always manipulative no matter how "nice" you are about it.) Evangelism too often cripples the very ability to authentically love...because the aim always becomes conversion rather than love. I have seen this destroy good ministry continually.

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Well, now, dear heart. From what I'm gathering, this is a primarily pragmatic reason for being a universalist. Meaning that there is NO force, whether internal or external, to pressure ministry (meaning general service to humanity) into becoming evangelistic (meaning sharing the good news of Christ) to the point of denying the GENUINE nature of the service itself. Though I see and have EXPERIENCED exactly what you are saying, I still think this ain't the way to go. Why? Simply because, within the Christian context, it's unnecessary. We are told to love each other as Christ loved us. We are told to do good to ALL people in service to Christ. We are told to help people BECAUSE they need help. If people were to focus on that, leaving it up to the Spirit to provide an "open door" for what some call "truth encounters", then we wouldn't see so much of the problems that you mention. There's no reason to go all the way to universalism to fix this problem. Just my opinion.




PS: Yo, Empiress. I read some of your stuff, specifically about your take on God's holiness. I want to get into that with you later, whenever you want to. Holla back.

Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love.

Edited by - mephi2K on 01/16/2002 4:32:44 PM

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I can say I agree with you in the sense that I believe God is the First Cause and the source of all that is. I believe people are born, as spiritual beings, with a bent and desire for God (that is only met in God).

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"All of us used to live that way, following the passions and desires of our evil nature. We were born with an evil nature, and we were under God's anger just like everyone else" --Ephesians 2:3

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My experience of Christians going out of their way to do some small act of kindness is very positive. Every time it has “fed” me in some small way – no matter what their motivation. The only time it doesn’t “feed” me is when there is a string attached – a tit for tat. I believe Love is an action – not a motivation. A free loving act feeds another. Sometimes the most arbitrary simple loving act can feed a great deal as it can encourage the one fed to feed another – and thus be fed themselves even more: Jesus with the woman at the well – did he not do the simplest of kindnesses; show her respect by asking her to draw water for him?

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First, I want to say that these kinds of responses (using only a Bible verse) make me nervous because I feel like the Scripture is used as a weapon to argue and "thrown" out as a response. I'm uncomfortable with it.

Second, I feel that being made in the image of God is the overarching lens through which we are to view humanity. I'm not sure what Paul is getting at in this verse and don't have the time to do some thorough Greek exegesis on it, but I don't feel it negates the idea that God has created us with a desire for God...a God "void." Whether our "natures are sinful" is a different issue. I think sin is present in us, yes, but that we've been created with an innate hunger and thirst for God despite that.

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I see that a person simply not buying into modern day Christianity is not necessarily a fault...in fact, it may be a choice made in righteousness given the state of the church. If you "reject" Jesus because you see the hypocrisy and evil in his followers...then you haven't rejected Jesus, you've rejected evil. If you "reject" Jesus because you see the close mindedness of his followers and you value the objective and open search for truth, you haven't rejected Jesus, you've rejected non-truth seeking. When I hear why people reject Christianity, these are the kinds of reasons I hear. People have good reasons for doing so and I believe a God of love will honor those reasons.

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I hear you, Empiress. Loud and clear. There is no doubt that human beings have wreaked havoc with the message of Christ, PARTICULARLY organized religion. I couldn't agree with you more there.

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Conversely, many people "accept" Christianity out of fear or because they were raised "Christian" and are too lazy to even evaluate their own beliefs. And yet these people are more "righteous" than non-believers who have good reasons!?? This is illogical.

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Again, your point is well-taken.

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The other reason for being a Universalist is it's the only way in ministry that people can focus on loving people and stop trying to constantly manipulate them to accept their beliefs. (Because it is always manipulative no matter how "nice" you are about it.) Evangelism too often cripples the very ability to authentically love...because the aim always becomes conversion rather than love. I have seen this destroy good ministry continually.

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As for Universalism, I take this position: According to Scripture (which I trust as the most rational basis for my worldview), I am confident that those who have a relationship with Christ will be "saved." I am also quite confident that those who have not had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ, due to a lack of either knowledge or intelligence, will be saved. As for everyone else, I hope. In short, I can hope for universal salvation, but within the limited revelation that we are provided with, I just don't know. What I do know, however, is that a relationship with Jesus Christ changed my life and filled that "void" that is within each of us. And I will be eternally grateful that someone was willing to talk to me about that relationship whether I asked them to or not. And when I get the chance to talk to someone about it, I do. Not because I want anything from them. Not because I want them to come to my church. I want them to have a crack at this relationship that I have found.

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Part of the reason is because I'm not convinced my beliefs are even "right" (something which most Christians don't seem to struggle with).

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Boy, don't I feel this way sometimes. I think any introspective, contemplative individual has to feel this way sometimes. Doubt is integral to faith, that's for sure. But, on the other hand, the revelation of Jesus Christ blows me away. Historically, logically, philosophically, spiritually, it makes way too much sense for me to ignore it. That's what I am sure of. That's what I know. That's what compels me to share it with others. Call it "evangelism," "witnessing," or a desire to "convert," but I must tell people about Christ if I care about them at all.

I feel like I rambled through this, but I hope it makes some sense. It's late and my cold medicine is starting to kick in.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

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Claims to objectivity/neutrality/fact-value dichotomy etc. have been rather decisively debunked as manipulative and dishonest.

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