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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > What is the role of the Church? | Forum Quick Jump
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deal22000
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 2/3/2002 3:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | What is the role of the Church? How important is it in trying to be a Christian? I did a search here on liturgy and church and only came up with a thread about liturgy that seemed to explain how and why some people worship, and it seemed that some people here liked the liturgy for nostalgic reasons. But, I didn’t see any explanation for why or if this is important.
I ask this having just returned from a church service. My children find liturgy to be totally boring and a complete waste of time. I tend to agree to some extent. I feel less spiritual at church than many other places I can think of. Of course, I have some issues with the church that I don’t think have anything to do with God, and that have left a bad taste in my mouth. So I’m biased here.
I can see the value of having a sense of community with other people who share some of the same basic beliefs. And I see the value of self-discipline involved.And I recognize the nice humanitarian efforts some churches are involved in. But is there any value other than that? Does God really care how we worship? I’d be really interested to hear what Anyone around here thinks. Thanks.
Edited by - deal22000 on 02/03/2002 08:09:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 2/3/2002 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | |
you went to church! alright!
your post sounds alot to me like many, many other people who go to church on sunday. they go just because they feel obligated or they have just done it for so long they just do it out of habit. first thing i would recommend doing is to find a different church to go to. find a church that has bible-based preaching. (if you live in the twin cities area, you can go to greg boyds church) i'd say try a baptist or evangelical free church. find a church that has worship that you like. (worship doesn't have to be boring!) God cares how we worship. he doesn't care if we sing or if we play an instrument or whatever. he is concerned with our hearts. he wants worship straight from the heart. (now i can't do this reading liturgy! i find it rather dry too!) find a church where you can feel the spirit of God dwelling in the people. when that happens, you'll love going to church. to meet new people that have the same faith in God that you do, and to know them and to grow with them, that what christianity is all about. we are communal beings and our faith needs community as well.
these are just suggestions, take em or leave em!
June
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/3/2002 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Simply put, there is no such thing as a single Christian.
"For where two or three are gathered in my name,
there am I in the midst of them" Matthew 18:19-21).
We are saved in the Church. The Church is Christ's Body. We are built into the church by the Holy Spirit. The Church "binds," and it "loosens." The church is both part of history (is incarnated), and transcends it (is Spirit led).
Obviously worth the concern you are giving it. But don't settle for less than the best.
I posted some liturgical stuff. But that was not for "nostalgia"! Good liturgy is ALIVE. Good liturgy is "scientific" in that it has been road tested to be an effective tool for leading us in approaching Christ. Its out there!
And as I've said about the Church (being incarnated and Spirit led), a similar thing can be said of liturgy. Good liturgy has been developed by many, with great results, that is has been a setting for the Church and the Body to commune, AND good liturgy is also one that is alive with a feeling of spontaneity.
Do you remember times when the Lord's Prayer explodes in time, is as if being uttered for the first time? Explodes in time as being for THAT moment. Hearing "this is my body" as for THAT moment?
It exists, and is "new every morning."
A Song of Ascents. Of David.
I was glad when they said to me,
"Let us go to the house of the LORD!"
(Psalm 122:1-2)
Edited by - potonwheel on 02/03/2002 5:33:13 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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geej
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 2/3/2002 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Deal,
This may sound overly simplistic but here's my take on the role of the church
1. The church should prepare (through teaching and worship) those who attend to further the kingdom of God through whatever ministry they feel called into.
2. The church is a place where Christians can worship God together.
3. The church is also a place to meet other Christians so that they are able to make friends who share the same passion for Christ that the other (hopefully) has.
The first two on this list are, in my view, the most important. However, the third is also important. Another thing that is important to me is that I personally find attending church to be a fulfilling experience; I always leave feeling comforted and better about myself. In addition, I always learn something new when I go AND most of the time, I feel personally challenged to grapple with tough issues in my life and to focus more on Christ and to reach out to others. In essence, it keeps me honest (challenges me to do the right thing and to serve others) and in communion with Christ and it helps remind me of why I love and want to serve such a great God.
GJ
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deal22000
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 2/4/2002 3:35 AM (GMT -6) | | June! Imagine my surprise when I saw you had responded to my post! Does this mean Starkman will show up, too?? I really hope so.  I like what he has to say. Seriously, I had to smile, because I very much appreciate your conversation.
If church was anything like this board, where I see most people, at least, trying to learn and grow together, at all different stages, I’d have no problem. But I have yet to see a church like that. I'll look though. I don’t live near Minnesota, so I won’t be able to check out Greg Boyd’s church. I think that’s too bad, because, based on this site and the book I read, and his actually responding to my questions, I think I would absolutely enjoy it AND it would be good for me.
Anyway, I think I need to try to clarify my question. I see that church can be beneficial in “keeping me honest,” as geej said (geej—don’t worry, you can’t be overly simplistic with me ) and furthering God’s plan, and it could be fulfilling. And I assume He cares about whether or not my heart is in it. However, my main question is, does God really care whether or not I worship in a church? That I follow a certain program. I was thinking about that verse “where two or three are gathered in my name.” (Ha! I actually recognized that one!) But, is that necessarily talking about a formal church setting? If I gather my family on a regular basis and we marvel at what God has created and give thanks for what He has given us, etc.…doesn’t this fulfill that verse? Is there anything in Scripture that calls for a formal church? Well, I suppose there is. But even the church distinguishes between the visible (real-world) and invisible (ideal) church. In general, I think there are some big problems with the real church. Would God want us to settle for less than the best, if that’s all there is? Is this Necessary? BTW, I don’t think my being there would have any influence on making it any better, or worse, than it is. I don't know, maybe that's a cop out on my part.
About liturgy. I think I know what you are saying, PoW. I do see the value of good liturgy. That it is both historical and Alive, spontaneous. I have, in time past, felt that. I see that it can be a way of communing with God. And, I actually appreciate the ritual element. It is both past and present. But I haven’t felt anything like that in a long time. And not often. And rarely at church. And not recently. In an ideal world, it would be there. I see that it could be wonderful, but if we don’t find that, then what? I’m thinking, give it up.
POW, you said We are saved in the Church. I’m not sure what you mean. Because, the way I decided to believe in Christianity was by coming here, asking questions, reading different things (I have a long way to go, but I’ve read enough to change my mind so far), taking another honest look at the world around me and being honest about my own life, and taking another look at the bible and reading it while asking God to help me understand it, and, most importantly, deciding to give Him the benefit of the doubt—since I know I Don’t deserve any more than that. That’s how I came to faith. That and some things I won’t get in to.
Part of what I would like to know is if it is the Church’s role to help interpret Scripture for people. If so, how would I know whether or not I’m in the “right” church? I couldn’t go by whether or not I agree with it, of course—because I could be wrong. Same question about morals. Is it the Church’s role to identify the “rules”? Again, how would I know what’s right? Even on this board, which I think is comprised mainly of Christians, I see people disagreeing about just about every issue imaginable.
On an entirely different note, someone on this board said something like “people who run away from God find themselves running directly into Christ.” I’m sure I’ve botched it, but it was something to that effect. My family and I really liked that. I’d like to read more of what that person said, but I’ve looked and I can’t find it. If anyone remembers that, that would be excellent. thanks
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/4/2002 3:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. I just got off of work. But I wanted to stop in before I go to bed as I sometimes do. This is limited, but I hope you get the gist.
PotOnWheel says:
quote:
Simply put, there is no such thing as a single Christian.
BAAM! or POW!! <--Get it PotOnWheel?  Right on. Anyhoo, put another way, as I have read before, "There is no such thing as a fellowshiplessness Christianity."
Now deal, your last paragraph betrays the one of the most standard/typical reasons Christians have today for going to Church. I hope I have not come off sounding condescending. Don't get me wrong, there are many practical, pious spiritual reasons for fellowshipping with other believers. We are to encourage others towards good works and to fight the good fight, etc.
However, that would only be part of the reason. One of the main reasons (as I see it) is as Fee and a few others have pointed out.
GOD HAS A PEOPLE!! GOD HAS A REMNANT!! GOD IS BUILDING A PEOPLE!!
In otherwords, the story of the Israelites continues over into the New Testament, but the form takes a different shape. No longer is it a family, tribe, clan, nationality, (confined to the nation of Israel) that is God's people, but it is people of every tribe, tongue and nation. The bride.
This is how election should be understood. Corporately.
Then there is the point that Greg has made that God wants us to co-labour with Him. There's more that could be said. Such as should we restrict our understanding of the church to living saints? For now, let me recommend a couple of books and an article.
1. Paul the Spirit and the People of God--by Gordon Fee.
2. What on Earth is the Church?--by Kevin Giles This is one where we see why the doctrine of the trinity is important to the faith, life and practice of the church.
3. There was an article in Christianity Today a number of years ago by Stanley Grenz, I can't remember the name of it, (I have it in boxes), but if you can't find it there, I recommend going to his website and maybe making a request from him there.
www.stanleyjgrenz.com/
Have at it. It's a great topic!
Brandon
Edited by - BBBCanada on 02/04/2002 08:53:05 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 2/4/2002 3:58 AM (GMT -6) | | rant mode on:
Can't help but wonder why "Church" is structured the way that we currently see it. It seems that many agree it's for the fellowship of the believers, why not use bowling alleys. Why rows of chairs facing what is called by many an alter area with a fancy pulpit of some kind that has mystical powers. Wouldn't chairs in a circle make more sense? What are ushers all about? Why not let uncle Joe sleep?
rant off:
peace and love, don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 2/4/2002 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | deal! i keep following you around! hope you don't mind!
quote:
However, my main question is, does God really care whether or not I worship in a church?
i don't think God cares one bit if you are in a church or not. the "church" is not a building, it is a people group. (right on with the verse.) i think it would be better if we didn't follow a certain program. as i said before, he cares about the heart.
quote:
Part of what I would like to know is if it is the Church’s role to help interpret Scripture for people.
i think that the church should help gives us insight and knowledge about scripture. the problem comes in when people believe only the church can interpret scripture.
June
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/4/2002 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Hiya all,
Per Deal's Question (first post) " What is the role of the Church? How important is it in trying to be a Christian?, here's my take.
First, I could go legalistic (to impose spiritual legalities on someone, or to take on such legalities, and thus bind said person(s) to the legality inspite of its trustworthiness). Where was I? Oh yes!
First, as I was saying, we could quote Hebrews 10:25 "Do not forsake the assemblying of yourselves, as is the manner of some...", but without comment, it leaves us kind of...well, legalistic!
Here's the deal, Deal. The word "church" (as I understand it) comes from the Greek word that means "called out ones". You could have a church in the town square - called out ones to discuss business, for that matter. But Jesus said He'd build HIS church. And so, there He is in the midst of any two or three (or more for that matter) to fellowship with them. And, of course, He is always with us individually, is He not!
So, for Him to be with us corporately is to say something about a distinguishing between one on one fellowship (ourselves indivually with God) and as His body (as a "church" with Him).
You see, it's much, much more deeper than going to a building. Hey, I'm not too hip on standing out in the thunderstorms of some parts of the world, the snow and ice storms of others and the plain ol' cold of Minnesota to have church. Thanks, but no thanks. Give me a building; stain glass windows, steeple, school building down the street - I don't really care! I'd just like to be inside, if I can. Hence, the use of a building.
But the real essence of coming together is clearly seen by your example of you using your family, Deal; for you said: "If I gather my family on a regular basis and we marvel at what God has created and give thanks for what He has given us, etc.…doesn’t this fulfill that verse? .
Let me ask you this: if you had family from all over the world - relatives you didn't even know you had - come to see you, to be with you, to talk, share and cry with you, to laugh with you and enjoy with you something only family members can enjoy, would you prefer to stay inside your house with only your immediate family? I don't think you would (unless you got some really rotten relatives, dude!).
Really, though, you see, it's all about relating WITH others and God. Family, the "body" (a very heavy concept about just how much we are united and one with Jesus), fellowshiping and trying to find the deeper meaning of what all that means.
And, since we are so diverse of a people on this planet, there are those who prefer the more formal style, some prefer the cathedral building and worship style, some prefer a more relaxed and "down to earth", etc. But what matters is that you find a place that first honors and teaches the truth of God's Word and relationship with Him through Christ (hey, I didn't say that'd be easy, but that's the task), and that you ask God to show you just what doing chruch is really all about. It takes prayer ("Hey God, I'm needing your help and guidance here. Where'd ya like me and the family to go?"). It takes patience ("Great, I just found something I don't like about this church!"). It takes time ("Oh, what the hek, I've got until I die!) to discover what works for you. Just NEVER sacrifice the first and foremost purpose of church: those members of the body of Christ coming together for a purpose - the purpose of worshiping, the purpose of discovering your non-immediate family!, the purpose of honoring God in family form.
There are other reasons for church, too, which I'm sure others can contribute (some already have).
Keep on searching, Deal!
For the relationship!
Starkman
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/4/2002 12:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Deal, this is "soft sell" time. I want to furnish you with what wise things I've read or heard expressed, in a way that is as balanced as when I got the. I'll try.
First, the quote (you're close enough for me) "“people who run away from God find themselves running directly into Christ.”" came from either Paul Evdokimov or Timothy Ware (not Bruce Ware). They might have quoted it. Both are Orthodox--one a Bishop who also teaches at Oxford Univ., the other was a layman and a Sem. prof. who had lots of ecumenical dealings. Lots. Both do actually!
You wrote: "POW, you said We are saved in the Church. I’m not sure what you mean." That is only a hard statement when we forget it and try to go it alone (or for those who try to start their own church). Salvation is a trinitarian action. In Eastern Orthodox terms (My family is attending a Christian Reformed Church; but my brother-in-law is an Orthodox priest now, having once been a Protestant minister.) they talk about the "economic trinity" and the "economy of salvation." The Father loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) That's two persons of the Trinity. The Spirit works with the Son in consort. Christ ministers the Spirit to us; and The Spirit ministers Christ to us. The Son and the Spirit have been described as the right an left hands of the Father.
Here is a scripture quoted on an Orthodox website. But Doc quotes the same thing! WE are the Church. Scripture is for all of us. There is one Church--a mess though it is on the surface often.
"The Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit" (Eph 2: 18-22).
Salvation is only from "The Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit." Period. But I really, really doubt that in that bare bones form that anyone will choose to argue to the opposite.
Yea! We have agreement!
THAT is the Church: from "The Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit." The church is in history, and transcends it. If someone chooses to pay attention to only one of those two aspects, THEN there is problems.
So ya gotta find a "church". And find on wherein you will find the "CHURCH!"
You asked two, harder to answer questions:
- ...is the Church’s role to help interpret Scripture for people
- Is it the Church’s role to identify the “rules”?
I'll try. I put a quote from Yannaras on a thread in answer to Empiress. I don't know which one. It's point grew out of the fact that we really need to understand what the "law" was for in making sin (missing the mark) more obvious to us, so that we would really see our need for Christ to bring us home. Christ, then fulfills the law rather than destroys is.
If the Chruch/salvation (Hey everybody, get over your flinching!!!  ) really is from "the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit"; then salvation really saves us. It does not pretend to. Christ by his Spirit, and the Spirit ministering Christ REALLY does change us inwardly. The "image of God" that we were created with is our "natural" essence. Sin is unnatural--hence deadly.
So, as to "rules" (please frame this as a combination of in-history and across-history), while legalism is deadly, the Church is often the medium by which the Spirit (the aspect of the Church that transcends history) warns, teaches, shines a light, etc. Revivals change lives. My own Swedish/BGC background came out of lives freed from such things as alcohol--hence prohibitions that the Dutch Reformed don't have. "How to live" goes hand in hand with "how not to die." It just makes sense.
As to"...is the Church’s role to help interpret Scripture for people" Actually YES; as unpopular as that sounds. The Church actually decided (NOW REMEMBER!!! The Spirit is actively part of the Church. So stop wincing again!!!) which books were going to be in scripture. And the Church has been the forum for dealing with the threats of heresies. But scripture, though it is an incarnation of sorts of the Son/Logos--the Living Word... is not itself by itself the Word. So less is at stake than if we were looking to let the Bible become a tool to for hitting each other over the head with!!!!!!! Those in the church have to practice the humility to bow to those across centuries. And yet we have to interpret scriptures to the present too. Remember, both in history, and across.
I hope that maybe is what you want.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Please, find a good church.
PoW
Edited by - potonwheel on 02/04/2002 5:26:02 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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deal22000
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 2/5/2002 4:05 AM (GMT -6) | | BBBCanada—so you think that fellowship is not the most important aspect of church. So there IS something other than that. When you say God is building a people, could you explain what that means more, in practical terms? THIS is where I need to know more. Is my going to a church important just as a sort of principle, like to make a stand, be visible, whatever? Or, is this really going to make a difference? Then it seems the Church should be a lot more aggressive than it is, but I don’t like that thought. I’m sure I misunderstand you. I looked for the article you suggested on the Christiantiy Today site, but no go. I’ll try the other site. I wrote down the books, and I think I’ll probably get them sometime, because I think you are addressing my main question.
Might-be-don—To be honest, I have to agree with what you said. Chairs in a circle. And let the old guy sleep. I may be there myself one day. Hope I’ll have the good sense not to bother to show up at that point, though.
June—I agree about church not being a place, but rather a group of people. And ideally, this group of people can help provide insight into scripture. I just get a bit nervous when we take this all upon ourselves. Then again, who else am I going to trust? Not sure. History? Yes, I’ll get to that later. I see the importance.
Starkman--I knew you’d show! Good, I wanted to tell you those books helped me a lot. Anyway, yeah, I see the practicality of a building, and all that. In fact, I thought of something yesterday. I was thinking about how these people carried around this portable tabernacle. I couldn’t understand it. First, I think God is everywhere. He’s not limited in space or time. (probably some other philosophical discussion I wouldn’t be able to understand) BUT, then I thought, no He’s not limited, but WE are. So maybe it’s kind of a condescension on His part to encourage us to put aside a set time and space we can focus on so we can feel that we are communing with Him. So, He’s everywhere, but He can be more or less present at certain times, in certain places. Well, just skip that, I probably made no sense. I’m just trying to understand why God would care about this.
About the body being like a family. I get it. It doesn’t work in isolation, the more the merrier. About finding a church. Wish me luck. I’m not very patient lately. Okay, I’ve got until I die. …When will that be? I’ve got the yellow pages out here. Starting with A—Advent Christian. Hmmm. Nevermind.
PoW—thanks for the quote!!!
About being saved. I have No idea if I am or not. I’m not even too sure what that means. But, okay, the Holy Spirit works in us (through the Church –I mean, through individual churches--as well?) through Christ to get to God. Anyway, I like the description of Christ and the HS being like the right and left hands of God. Yeah, I need something concrete.
Another thing about salvation. You say this is Real, there is inward change. How do we know this? When do we see it? I see that sin is not the natural state. So, is that what salvation means? A process. Actually returning us to our natural state, which is in the image or likeness of God?? Such a deal. So, does this come to completion before or after we’re dead?
Yep, I see the Church decided which books would be included in scripture—that’s what made me wary to begin with. Inspired by the Holy Spirit? I guess I just need to try to hang on to that one. Otherwise… I’m not going there right now. Thanks
Another question: I always assumed the Church’s role was to spread the word. But everyone who shows up on Sunday is already convinced. I was thinking about the Jehovah’s Witnesses who were coming to my house every Sunday morning for a while there. Finally, I got tired of giving them excuses so one day I invited them in. I offered them lousy coffee and let my dog run around the room sniffing everything, hoping to discourage them from staying very long. It didn’t work. They didn’t convince me, but they were very interesting and cordial and I admired their stamina. Now, getting back to the churches I’ve attended, No one even answers a question, much less goes out in the community and asks if anyone Has any questions. Is this the role of the church? Is it my role, as a trying-to-be Christian? I’m sure people will disagree here, but I’d like to hear it.
MOre questions some other time, but I have to go. Hey, if I find a church, I'll bother them instead. maybe | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 2/5/2002 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | |
Deal! you just asked about 500 questions in one post!
i'm just going to address one question, i'm sure starkman and others will be here soon. you said "isn't it the Church's role to spread the word?"
YES!YES!YES! The church, like you said, needs to be much more aggressive! The church today is doing next to nothing in their own communities. Some churches lately i've noticed, are beginning to get out more. the trick comes in when you think about how you can reach these people. jehovah's witnesses, althought persistent, don't always take the most tactical approach. not everybody is ready to have their door banged down by religion. we need to start meeting people where they are at. the church can have a huge impact in spreading the word without even mentioning the gospel. just shovel somebody's sidewalk after a snowfall and see if they don't come bang your door down.
The church, in my point of view, has three functions. Reachin up, reaching in, reaching out. Reaching up to know and honor and worship our father. Reaching in to build the community of believers, the body of Christ. Reaching out to spread the word to those who haven't heard it.
good luck on finding a church! if you agree with most of the answers and responses you get here, you'll probably want to find a baptist church (indeed Greg Boyd is a baptist) or something similar. that doesn't mean that other churches won't suffice...
June
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/5/2002 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Deal, you will find folks from lots of backgrounds here. (I grew up Baptist, attend a Dutch Reformed Church, and am heavily influenced by Eastern Orthodoxy; where my brother-in-law is a priest.)
A Reformed friend who writes curriculum materials for a Reformed denomination liked something about the following Q&A article by an Orthodox priest. One thing about Salvation is that it is running a race. One has to FINISH or else all bets are off. So the "BEING SAVED" (Which grammatical vberb tense is that, anyways?) is something to ponder.
Here is a link: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/hebrews6.html
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/5/2002 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, right. It is not how you start, it's how you finish.
Brandon
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deal22000
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 2/6/2002 2:28 AM (GMT -6) | | June—You’re right about the 500 questions. SORRY. I see some of them are being addressed elsewhere, anyway, and I should go there. I am getting a better idea of what the church is about, though.
Pow—thanks for the link. I found it very interesting and helpful—I could relate. I guess that means I could agree with it. BTW, I think the tense is present progressive, but I’m not sure—One thing about those nuns, they didn’t teach me a single thing about theology, but I could darn well diagram a sentence for a while there.
Edited by - deal22000 on 02/06/2002 07:35:47 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/6/2002 2:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is a devotional that cam e-mail this morning. it can be made to apply:
quote:
Thursday, February 7, 2002
Epistle: St. James 1:19-27
Gospel: St. Mark 10:17-27
Worlds Apart: St. Mark 10:17-27, especially vs. 17: "Now as He was setting
out on His journey, a man ran up and knelt before Him and asked Him, ‘Good
Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?'" [RSV] How far apart this
earnest man was from the Lord Jesus! The journey upon which the Lord was
setting out was toward Jerusalem, the Passion and the Cross. So intent was
the Lord that His disciples were "amazed" as He pressed ahead (Mk. 10:32-34).
The intensity of this unnamed man to find how to inherit eternal life is
demonstrated in his unusual behavior: he ran rather than walked up to the
Lord Jesus. He knelt before One he considered to be a Rabbi. That was not
customary with Rabbis. He addressed the Lord in an unusual way, one not
practiced by either Jews or Greeks, when he called Him "Good."
As the account unfolds, the gap between the Lord and the man becomes more
and more evident. To overcome the man's obsession with "inheriting" eternal
life, the Lord confronts him with an extreme demand - to renounce all and
follow Him to death (vs. 21). That demand reduces the man to grief, and he
walks away (vs. 22).
The man believed that a human being could rationally understand how to
inherit eternal life. The Lord knew better. The man was deluded. He
believed that God expects more than is revealed in the Law for men to inherit
eternal life (Dt. 30:19). The Lord Who gave the Law reminded him that the
Divine standard does not change (Mk. 10:19). The man assumed that sinners,
by their own effort, could win eternal life. The Lord knew that only God
makes eternal life possible (vs. 10:27). They were worlds apart.
The Lord's exchange with the earnest man when he called Him "Good,"
reveals a basic error: that human beings can set the terms by which a person
can inherit eternal life. The man believed that the human being he saw
before him, a famous Rabbi, Jesus of Nazareth, as a man knew the answer.
Further, the Lord's question and assertion, "Why do you call Me good?"
rejected the assumption that any human can be "good," for only God is good
(vs. 18). St. Hilary of Poitiers points out that the Lord "would not have
rejected the attribute of goodness if it had been attributed to Him as God."
The idea that human beings have the capacity to discover the path to
eternal life is inherent in many of the world's religions, but it is utterly
foreign with the true God. From the very first Divinely stated requirement
for life (Gen. 2:17), to the Apostolic declaration that "eternal life which
was with the Father and was manifested to us...is with the Father and with
His Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn. 1:2,3), God alone has revealed the mystery of
eternal life.
There is no esoteric or extra knowledge available to the earnest who
desire eternal life. Through His Holy People, Israel and the Church, God has
revealed to mankind "what is good; or what...the Lord requires of thee...to
do justice, and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God"
(Micah 6:8). However, the man who came to the Lord wrongfully sought a
special answer, which the Lord exposed by quoting the Law (Mk. 10:19). As
St. John later said: "I write no new commandment to you, but an old
commandment which you have had from the beginning" (1 Jn. 2:7).
The distance between the deluded man and the Lord was fully revealed when
the Lord exposed his true sin to him, and yet what the Lord required is for
all disciples (Mk. 8:34). Knowing the state of the man's heart, the Lord
placed the demand before him in unavoidable terms which he could not
rationalize. The man chose to turn away, for he knew he was incapable of
doing what God required for obtaining eternal life. Sadly, he did not wait
to hear the Gospel caveat: "With men it is impossible; but not with God; for
all things are possible with God" (Mk. 10:27 NRSV)!
O Master, by the precepts that Thou teachest, save me Thine undeserving
servant.
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seeker35
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 25
| Posted 2/10/2002 4:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Deal2200,
I just want to say a few things.
1. Did you know that “philosopher” means one who seeks the Truth. You qualify. It doesn’t matter what anyone else here thinks. At some point in our lives, we begin the journey, and sometimes we don’t have much say in where we start from.
2. People can and will give you many definitions of what it means to be a Christian. The simplest and best I have ever heard is that it means trying to emulate Christ AND that includes being sincerely willing to help someone who is sincerely trying to find the Truth. You will find such people. You’ve already found some. The Truth is something that demands to be shared. My advice: pursue what you need to know, but don’t worry too much about what the scholars think. Many of them are more interested in being scholars than in being Christians. And don’t worry too much about find the perfect church, there is none.
3. You obviously already know this, but these are things you will ultimately need to decide for yourself. And it WILL change your life. When you are discouraged, look back at the progress you have made. It is evident to me.
Peace on your journey.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/15/2003 3:49 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/15/2003 3:55 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/19/2003 5:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 7/20/2003 2:23 AM (GMT -6) | | pOtoNwhEEl,
Whoops... missed your callout.
My head is telling me that things will be ok, my heart is holding back somewhat. I suppose that I feel a bit like a divorced man whose ex-wife stomped on him. Not too eager for a relationship, but missing the sex. Well, maybe not the best analogy.
peace, don
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"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus | | Back to Top | | |
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