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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 9/10/2001 6:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes:
Have you read the book "The Upside down Kingdom"? I think the author was Donald Kraybill(?). An excellent book on this subject for someone wishing to learn about it. I agree wholeheartedly with all you have said. I was watching a television program the other night (I don't remember what the name of it was) which told of how precious farmland in certain third world countries was being diverted to cash crops for world markets rather than food staples for the local peoples. Thousands starving to death but at least we in the West get the benefit of cheap grain prices. What a world we live in.
Rob
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graygirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 9/10/2001 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi all
hey wasssuupp (how many s's and p's??)
WOW. Passions are a flarin' here. This is great stuff and I think we're getting at the crux..exciting..i'll write later.....
GG
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Here's what I'll address:
quote:
I have a couple more questions, but understand if you are too busy to answer them (graygirl, too, what are you thinking?):
1. In what way is God preferential towards the poor? Is it in salvation? (on judgment day, like you said) Does he/she love them more? Care for them more?
God has gone on record as being the vindicator of the oppressed, truly, if people do the word searches I have suggested, you will see this clearly. At the very least, what this seems to imply is that there will be a final form of justice. In terms of salvation, God does not want any to perish, but salvation for the rich may include salvation FROM being rich. What is clear is that there IS a difference in terms of admission into the kingdom of God based upon whether one is rich or not, but praise God, all things are possible for God! EVEN the rich may be saved! These are not my words, read the gospels. God seems to have a record of being FOR the underdog. Think even of the fundamental defining event for God's relation to Israel. What the resurrection of Christ is to Christians, the Exodus is to Jews. This is really deep. I cannot say that God loves the poor more, how does one distinguish infinite love from infinite love? But God's love for the oppressed will look preferential as it is acted upon towards the oppressed as compared to what it may look like towards the oppressors. If justice is to be served, it will involve a gain for some and loss for others. Correcting violated relations always involves this. Our gain is Christ, but that is also God's loss. In another sense, our loss is our lives, and God's gain is us. In terms of this discussion, our gain is righteousness and justice, but our loss will be physical/material/temporal resources. The oppressed will gain in many ways, but they too will lose their lives as they have known them.
quote:
2. What do I do with the fact that I'm going to be priviledged, no matter what? I will always be rich by the world's standards. Unless things change dramatically, I'll always have a roof over my head, food to eat, opportunities. I've spent a lot of time feeling really guilty over this. I've tried to live life "pretending" I don't have what I do--by dressing down, driving an older car, whatever. It doesn't matter, because it can't change what is really true about me. And I'm not convinced that giving everything away to "become" financially poor is what every Christian is supposed to do. And I think that both money and opportunity are equally things that make us rich here in America, and other places. I guess what I'm asking is, what do you do with that?
What is the opposite of sin? Virtue, righteousness? No. It is faith which produces obedience. We are not left to our own thoughts on these things, we do not have a high priest who mediates, but we go straight to the top. PRAY people, listen to what the Lord requires of you, then DO IT. I can point out the patterns of what this has looked like for faithful people in the past, but YOU have to you to God with a willing heart and say, "Here am I. What will you have me to do?" Trust me God will not stay silent! For the rich young man that Jesus met, the call was high, too high for the man, and the result was that there would not be restoration between that man and God. I don't know what the call will be for you, but YOU will know if you ask. God is not a God of confusion, but speaks clearly to those who ask on God's will for their lives.
quote:
Modes said:
quote:
. If we are not part of the solution, then we ARE part of the problem.
I want to be part of the solution. I think my "calling" in life is to do this through health care, and I'm working towards that. But I feel like my "status" will always make me part of the problem, to some degree.
Thanks for any input.
Again, this is a matter between you and God. You do not owe your obedience to me, or anyone else. But to God you owe complete loyalty. If you are open to it, God will show you who, what, where, when and how. Pray in this direction. I am not starting a political campaign here with a particular agenda to push through some level of organized religion. Rather I feel very strongly that God is leading me to call others to listen to what God is saying to YOU in particular about what to do. This assumes a certain level of faith on your part. Take this up personally with God, not me. I cannot judge you for what God has told you to do, but I can challenge those who are not even asking God in this way and with regard to these issues, which are CLOSE to God's heart.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Modes:If we are not part of the solution, then we ARE part of the problem. Sorry, but that is the nature of corporate sin.
WOW! THIS IS HEAVY.
quote:
whasssuuuppp: "I want to be part of the solution...But I feel like my "status" will always make me part of the problem, to some degree.
I agree with you, Whasssuuuppp. What a predicament to be caught in. I actually don't believe God wants us to give everything away -- in fact I believe in the perfect world God wants us to be blessed and prosper BUT not just us but ALL believers. It's such a fine line to balance what our culture teaches with our moral and biblical obligations to the less fortunate of the world.
I hope this makes sense because I am getting sleepy. 
trosie
Careful Trosie, its not really important what you think about these issues, is it? No, what is important is that you are obedient to what God tells YOU in particular about these issues and what God requires of you, in particular. If God is leading you to give up all, are you going to tell God, "Sorry I don't beleive in doing that."? Yes, faith is a dangerous thing.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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pia†desideria
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Harold asks Modes: I am curious: do you have a plan by which the defeating of these powers might be accomplished?
pia: I hope Modes doesn’t mind me stepping in for him, but I know him pretty well, and he does have a “plan” for resisting the powers. It can be summed up in one word: obedience.
Harold: And what are you doing yourself to accomplish such a thing? Do you have any day-to-day constructive way to go about defeating these structures that oppress the masses (all the masses, of course, except us wealthy white Christians)?
pia: Yes, Modes has day-to-day constructive ways of countering powers of oppression, not just in his local sphere of influence (Modes has chosen to live in a poor neighborhood where he is a minority) but he also invests time and energy in another country that is in need, as the Lord leads.
Harold: It would seem to me you have two choices...you can totally remove yourself from society (which you obviously haven't done) or you can work within the systems you deem oppressive, which may or may not be fruitful.
pia: Isn’t this the whole point of the incarnation—God entered the oppressive systems of the world in order to transform them. Modes takes the call to be Christlike very seriously. In terms of being “more or less fruitful”—you’re right, it’s risky, but I think in Modes’ mind, it’s not an option—it’s a matter of obedience.
Harold: It should be noted that, as Thomas Howard said in his book Christ The Tiger, we all contribute to someone's mannon. In other words, we all will contribute to someone's sin.
pia: Yes, we are all so steeped in sin. This is why we need a Savior. This is why we are so thankful to be in Christ, and this is why we are eager to share Christ in us with others.
Harold: It is a matter, many times, of priority and practically.
pia: Justice is a matter of obedience.
“An exploration of reality is no place to lose touch with reality.” — Magneton | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/10/2001 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | ACtually: Pia, I would disagree. I believe Christ's death redeems the world in the future but not in the present. In the present we are called to preach and live out the gospel, but the redemption of the world will come in the new heaven and new earth. Our call is not to redeem the world but to be faithful to preach the gospel which redeems others of this world...as Jesus said his kingdom (and ours) is not of this world. If we do not truly understand this I believe it can lead to undue frustration and guilt. It is not so much important that the poverty and oppression of the world comes but that salvation changes the inner man, changes people who can then love others and break the chain of oppression. But,as I have stated before, it is the preaching of the gospel that accomplishes this, not what we may or may not do socially. Without the realization of what Christ did, nothing will change.
I find it interesting that your response as to what Modes does to counter the powers can be applied equally to many conservative Christians I know and how they live their lives.
Everything is a matter of obedience in the Christian walk, not simply justice. But I would argue that God calls many to live their lives differently than Modes and each is being true to God's call. There is no right or wrong in being poor or rich, but rather the right comes in where God has placed a person and how a person uses what God as given that person. By the same token, there is no righteousness in being poor rich, one is not more righteousness either way.
I applaud Modes for his following what he believes is God's will in his life. I would simply argue that, for most, God calls us not to move to a different place but to redeem the place we are in now. But I do wonder: simply because a Christian lives in a poor place does that really change the reality we are living in? Or to put it another way, just because a well off white Christian who feels guilty because he has more than others in the world decides to live in a poorer place, does that change things? Perhaps it soothes the individual's soul and keeps him from feel guilty...
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/10/2001 11:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I also find it interesting that Modes goes to another country to help and lives in a poor area in this country...wouldn't it be more in keeping with defeating the "structures" by renouncing this country altogether (since we consume and oppress so much) and living somewhere else. Apparently, as much as many would like to criticise the wealth of this country, they cannot get away from it, nor the benefits of it...
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/10/2001 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes: If God is leading you to give up all, are you going to tell God, "Sorry I don't beleive in doing that."?
Thanks for making this point. Of course I would be obedient to God if I knew for certain that I was being told to do something or go somewhere. I realize that some are called to basically give up "all" material possessions when they go into mission work ... Heck, the act of leaving all behind to follow Christ is even exemplified throughout the scriptures. Perhaps my flaw is that I write too quickly (especially when sleepy) It's just that I have seen people act too hastily in believing they are hearing from God because they think it is the "christian" thing to do in living in virtual poverty, but they really don't accomplish anything per se if they do this because they do this out of guilt... This is the reason I expressed that I don't think God "neccessarily" wants for us to be poor in order to serve the needy. I know I am getting WAY off the subject but it's the same as if it were emotional or spiritual poverty. We do not need to strip ourselves of where we are at spiritually or emotionally in order to minister to a depressed individual. What we do need is to have is God's love and compassion in fighting to help set the captive free!
quote:
Modes: God seems to have a record of being FOR the underdog.
AMEN! That is one of the things that attracts me to the person of Jesus and to the stories in the gospels!
Obedience is key in living righteously!
trosie
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 9/10/2001 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
writerdad: In other words, we all will contribute to someone's sin. For instance, if I go to a store and buy some meat, the chances are good that some of the money I use will be given to an employee as wages by which he will buy drugs, or substain an alcohol habit or other such thing. AS such we all contribute to such actitivites. But I believe God knows that, many times, he realizes we do the best we can and understands such things.
This is WAY heavy stuff! I agree that God looks at the heart of each individual. This reminds me of the saying, "Do your best and let God do the rest". All we can do, even in ministering and reaching out to the needy, is the best that we can. Our best is living in obedience God.
HEAVY STUFF!
trosie
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/10/2001 11:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes:
Have you read the book "The Upside down Kingdom"? I think the author was Donald Kraybill(?). An excellent book on this subject for someone wishing to learn about it. I agree wholeheartedly with all you have said. I was watching a television program the other night (I don't remember what the name of it was) which told of how precious farmland in certain third world countries was being diverted to cash crops for world markets rather than food staples for the local peoples. Thousands starving to death but at least we in the West get the benefit of cheap grain prices. What a world we live in.
Rob
Hi Rob, no, I have't read that book. But thanks for the recommendation. Glad to hear you are on board.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/10/2001 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I also find it interesting that Modes goes to another country to help and lives in a poor area in this country...wouldn't it be more in keeping with defeating the "structures" by renouncing this country altogether (since we consume and oppress so much) and living somewhere else. Apparently, as much as many would like to criticise the wealth of this country, they cannot get away from it, nor the benefits of it...
Harold, you are out of line. Flat out. I do what I do because it is what is required of me. Your social commentary on that could not be less relevant. Your personal commentary that implies it to be guilt driven, is irrelevant. Even whether my works bear fruit that YOU can appreciate, is irrelevant. I am not called to debate this but simply to do it, and yes, do it in the places God has called me to. Some things actually are that simple. That applies to MY LIFE'S walk of faith. What we have been discussing here has been biblical patterns of faithfulness. It seems implicit in your critique that God cannot actually call a person to something specific, I am here to testify against you. I am embarrassed that my personal life got dragged into this, but I am offended that you felt at liberty to assess its motivation. Please do tell, how do YOU know what God has called me to? This sickens me. Furthermore, my connections to another country are not merely incidental, again, there is a calling. If you would like to dialogue with me further, Harold, reparations will be required. You will be ignored until that is addressed.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Cibertus
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 9/10/2001 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Just a few cents from me.
I just scanned this tread quickly but there is one reocuring word that I keep hearing. GUILT It seems to me that a number of you are assuming that to live below your means is something a person would do only out of guilt. I don't understand why that follows for you all. There are many ways a person can benefit from living below their means, from living in a poor neighborhood as oposed to suburbia.
There have been times I have been moved to live below my means. For a year I slept on the floor instead of trying to hunt down a bed and pay money for it only to have to pay money again to get rid of it once I had to move again. It saved me money. It saved me time and hastle (except for the hassle I got from other people about it). In both instances it was an act of discipline for me. When I can say "no" to myself and my desires, I become a stronger person when it comes to saying no to things that I as a Christian need to say no to. It had nothing to do with GUILT.
So again...I wonder why you assume guilt. Perhaps those who assume guilt do indeed feel guilty and would in fact be operating out of guilt if they so chose to do something like live below their means. Projection??
Cibertus
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 9/10/2001 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Ooooops. Oh, no! Rank amateur present (ME!)
Not promising to make any point, or to prove anyone wrong.....but I'll shine a nosey flashlight about....
Pia said: "Isn't this the whole point of the incarnationÐGod entered the oppressive systems of the world in order to transform them."
"Almost", POW suggests. Maybe more so what you are talking about is the response Christ brings THIS side of Pentecost, not just during the Incarnation. (What do you think, Pia?) It is the transformation in US. Maybe not too much argument could be made -- admittedly some, though -- for the kind of revolution you speak of during the ministry of Christ. I know that the Mennonites make a big deal of Christ as our example (and WWJD is ever-present). But of course Christ is more than that. I vote for the BODY of Christ in the regard you speak of. --Response?--
........
writerdad says: "I believe Christ's death redeems the world in the future but not in the present. In the present we are called to preach and live out the gospel, but the redemption of the world will come in the new heaven and new earth. Our call is not to redeem the world but to be faithful to preach the gospel which redeems others of this world...as Jesus said his kingdom (and ours) is not of this world . . . it is the preaching of the gospel that accomplishes this, not what we may or may not do socially. Without the realization of what Christ did, nothing will change.
POW: (Never called myself that before!) I bet writerdad would agree with me if I raise the "now and not yet" aspect of the Kingdom. Instead of locking horns (concordances?) with him, let me just challenge EVERYONE to make a historical outline of the kind of "re-form(u)ation" (a friend's word) or revolution, or fruition that Christians have always been known for. John Chrysostom was very, VERY big in this in Constantenople. He could be ferocious from he pulpit. Many, MANY social projects were set up in that city. Anyone for homework?
........
Finally, one man in our church is very rich. He owns a landfill in the Chicago area. He (his family) intentionally hires only non-Christians. They do a WAY better job than all the government regulations at protecting the earth. (The Dutch know something about protecting the land--or making it!!!) Can I ever measure up to the mark he has hit. (Of course he uses his wealth responsibly too, in giving; which has to include NOT funding the whole church budget because that would not be good for the habits and spiritual health of everyone else!!! Interesting.)
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 09/10/2001 5:22:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 9/10/2001 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. I have a lot to process, and I think the main thing you've helped me to see is that we need to be faithful to what God has called us to do, and need to be seeking out what this is. I know it's basic but I needed to hear it again.
A good friend of mine just sent me a book about a doctor who started a church-based health center than encompasses ways of ministering to people's spiritual, emotional, physical, psychological, material, etc. needs. I haven't read much of it yet, but I can already say that I'd recommend it:
G. Scott Morris, Relief for the body, Renewal for the soul, Paraclete Press, 2001
WU
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Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/10/2001 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. I have a lot to process, and I think the main thing you've helped me to see is that we need to be faithful to what God has called us to do, and need to be seeking out what this is. I know it's basic but I needed to hear it again.
A good friend of mine just sent me a book about a doctor who started a church-based health center than encompasses ways of ministering to people's spiritual, emotional, physical, psychological, material, etc. needs. I haven't read much of it yet, but I can already say that I'd recommend it:
G. Scott Morris, Relief for the body, Renewal for the soul, Paraclete Press, 2001
WU
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Lespwa fe viv.
Hope makes us live.
A Haitian proverb
You are more than welcome, in fact, I appreciate your reiteration above. You've heard me well.
Kierkegaard once said something like this (my paraphrase from "Works of Love"):
"God desires the one thing God cannot create; our uncoerced obedience."
It does sound basic at first, but then, it is surely enough to spend an entire lifetime pursuing.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 9/10/2001 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi all
Wow. I don't even know how to start. My brain has not been moving as fast as the discussion.
Anyway this is all i can articulate and i'm not a theology guru this is all based on personal opinion......
By the way. Modes and writerdad: what is up?! what are you two doing? c'mon brothers...
1. The Church (at least in my lifetime) has absolutley not done enough for the exploited, marginalized, etc. (one of Modes's points right?)
i totally agree. It would bring GLORY to the legacy of CHrist if compassion for the exploited, the forgotten was pursued with the same passion as abortion and homosexuality. Compassion, genuine compassion. Isn't that why God was mad in Isaiah? There is a total blackout when it comes to minorty issues, oppressed people issues, etc.. In college my friends and I, desperate for fellowship, checked out a lot of these college groups....wow. we were like non-persons. Ignored and brushed aside. People didn't care about issues affecting us- they didn't even think they should. Even though we were all believers we were not an extension of THEIR body as we should have been. The church has been and contiues to be like that. Silent and subdue in the light of great atrocities and sin. There is no sense of "your problems are our problems".....Liberation theology rehighlights these issues and gives a voice to the voiceless with fervor and fire. I love that. It is needed.
2. The gospel of Christ must remain the core of the message (one of writerdad's concerns..right?). I agree here too and would add another step- biblical instruction/discipleship. That is one of my central concerns with LT (and it may address this I don't know enough about it). You can go around setting the captives free all you want but if you don't equip them for LIFE in the LORD i see the efforts as vain.
As believers we need to do all we can to subdue sin long enough, stop the pangs of physical hunger long enough, rebuke the devil from the harrassed long enough.....for them to clearly see and know Jesus. Everything else is irrelevant
...the politics
....the well meaning white folks
.....the protests
.....the talk of vengence and blood
.....the destruction of the oppressors
I have been there on the other side of priviledge. I have known family and friends killed by an extremeley oppresive dictatorship regime. I have sat on the other side of the desk while my white boss floundered as he attempted to explain to me why he was giving the promotion to a less qualified, less experienced white boy. I have watched my family, despite the maxiumum educational/professional experience be kept at a certain income level. Okay I've seen it. "The system", the "structures"....
After all the anger, all the frustration the only enduring "tool", the only enduring sustainer has been Christ. People need to be equipped with biblical instruction so they may know Christ deeply. Oppressed or free.
Don't be blind and say nothing's wrong. Don't diminish the gospel by being consumed by the problem. Balance.
I think Liberation theology reminds me of the quote
"Preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words".
GG
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/10/2001 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Greygirl,
Thanks for your comments.
1. I hope you didn't get the impression that I would leave Christ at the sidelines. Rather it is the very identity of Christ that forces us to recognize the centrality of liberation to the Gospel message itself. That is the beginning and ending of this conversation. Without Christ there will be no longstanding liberation. That is granted. BUT for the integrity of the Church as you pointed out, God calls us to correct the church when it fails to manifest attention to the actions Christ calls us to (personally and collectively). As you said, the problems of the oppressed HAVE GOT TO become the CHURCH'S problems as well. And of course, the church stays the church as it preaches Christ with word and deed.
2. If you have suggestions for how I should have handled my being offended by Harold differently, then I am all ears. I only mention it because you brought it up, perhaps you have a suggestion.
3. And yes, of course, there would have to be discipleship, as there would be in any adequate ministry which seeks to be faithful to the Gospel which is for Christian LIFE not simply conversion.
Glad to have you back in the conversation, I hope to hear more from you as you continue to develop your thoughts on these things.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
Edited by - modesofthought on 09/10/2001 10:13:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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faith
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Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 34
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | (In reference to writerdad's comment a while back)
Can one person acting on their God-given convictions really change anything?
The thing is, it's not the one person. It's the power of God within the person's open heart that changes things. Can one person change the systems of the world? Well, Jesus did, didn't he? And isn't it His Spirit inside of every one of us who accepted Him? And besides, even if it's just one person who is changed by the sacrifice of another, doesn't that make it all worth it? Wouldn't Jesus have died to save one soul?
Edited by - faith on 09/11/2001 12:30:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: This sickens me...cmon...give me a break...it always goes that way when one's beliefs are challenged in their practically. and a person doesn't like it. Anyway, the preaching of the gospel is where its at. Stick with that and you can't go wrong...
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Actually, Modes, I'd be very happy to relate to you how I work out my salvation with fear and trembling.
I am a father. God has called me to be the best father I can, to raise godly kids, to worship him, to love those around me, tell people that I come in contact with about Jesus. But mostly its simply about loving those around me, in my neighborhood, in this country God has put me in. I would reveal the actual details but I expect they might bore you. But I do want to address something you said awhile back. You said I don't worry about the structures because they benefit me. You know what? I agree.
I love this country. I am grateful to God that I benefit from this country. I am grateful that I was born here, that my kids live here and that such a gracious God exists that put me in such a wonderful, truly blessed country. And you know what? There are people here, amid all the wealth who need our help as well. People who are wealthy, have everything and have nothing. Who need Jesus just as much as people from any other country, but are my countrymen and women. And anything that happens with the wealth of this country affects them as well as others.
This is the country that allows you to go to other countries and minister and then come home free. This is the country that through its structures and freedom has allowed the gospel to be preached the world over, and through its military has protects your and my freedoms and allows us to have conversations such as this. And this is the country that keeps my children safe and secure when they go to bed at night.
Yes, I am entirely grateful to God for these benefits and have no problem saying that. I feel it is a dishonor to God when we do not recognize the inherit blessings we have in the country we call home. I believe Jesus loved Israel not just because it was the chosen country, but because he was borned there and lived there and died there. It was special to him and the United States is special to me. I am grateful for the structures of my country, even in their flaws. Man, what a great life this truly is! Harold
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 9/10/2001 7:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Finally, I believe Modes and I disagree to the extent that one of us is getting hot under the coller. AS such, I will leave the broadcast and go to other rewards...Modes, it is the gospel of peace...still, believe in what I spoke, but I did not mean to cause irritation, for this I do apologize. later folks...
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Cibertus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 9/11/2001 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo Writerdad,
You asked:
quote:
Modes: I am curious: do you have a plan by which the defeating of these powers might be accomplished? And what are you doing yourself to accomplish such a thing? Do you have any day-to-day constructive way to go about defeating these structures that oppress the masses (all the masses, of course, except us wealthy white Christians)?
I happen to have inside information and I can answer your question. I think he does have a plan. I was spying on Modes last night and he took off in this plane last night and he wouldn't tell anyone where he was going. I don't know where he's at right now or anything...
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 9/11/2001 5:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
FYI To those who tend to worry about the conflicts that arise on this board from time to time. I have recently emailed Harold and suggested we work this out through email. I should have thought of that sooner, but it just didn't occur to me. I trust that Harold will agree to resolve this with me off the board and all will be well again.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
Edited by - modesofthought on 09/11/2001 10:12:28 AM
Edited by - ModesofThought on 09/11/2001 3:18:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Cibertus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 9/11/2001 5:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Well Hello Modes,
Glad to see your alive! Suffering from smoke inhalation? :)
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graygirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 9/11/2001 6:07 AM (GMT -6) | | modes and harold, that's cool.
this stuff is really good. I'm chewing on a lot. it is difficult material to bring down from discussion of lofty ideas down to real life.
GG
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