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groovychick
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 5/16/2003 10:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | What is LOVE? Is it truth or tolerance? Saying what a person don't want to hear or saying what they do? Emotion or action? Nice, mooshy gooshy words or straightforward talk?
How does Jesus define love? How does the world define love? Love can be different in diff cultures. How do we know when we are walking in love? Do we use the word to cheaply?
People say sex outside marriage is cool if ya love the person. People leave a spouse claiming to love another. People advocate homosexual marriages 'cause of what they call love. Some people's love for things leads to addictions.
How do we walk in love in a world where love has so many meanings? How do we teach others, especially the youth of today, what love is? How can we tell a teenager not to have sex if he says he is in love? Don't tell them? Tell them?
How come if Christians love, we treat each other so dang bad? Anyone heard the phrase, "Christians are the only ones who shoot their own wounded?"
Loving thoughts anybody?
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/16/2003 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi groovychick. Great question. Some insight from Luke 6.
The Command
27 Love your enemies,
Do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you,
pray for those who abuse you.
29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek,
offer the other also;
and from anyone who takes away your coat
do not withhold even your shirt.
30 Give to everyone who begs from you;
and if anyone takes away your goods,
do not ask for them again.
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
The Rationale
Polemic: Don't seek credit from others like sinners do
32 If you love those who love you,
what credit is that to you?
For even sinners love those who love them.
33 If you do good to those who do good to you,
what credit is that to you?
For even sinners do the same.
34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive,
what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners,
to receive as much again.
35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend,
expecting nothing in return.
Promise: Receive your reward from the Most High
Your reward will be great,
and you will be children of the Most High;
for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
“The Golden Rule” lies at the heart of this teaching on love (v 31), and it is framed by the call to “love your enemies” (vv 27, 35). It concludes by grounding this rule in the Father's mercy (36).
Is the meaning of 36: "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful"—"to sinners," or, "to you"? Yes! The fact that God is referred to as "your Father" makes love about the mercy God has shown to you. This is not about guessing how God would treat a particular sinner in any given situation and then striving to accomplish this ourselves. It is about living out of the great mercy God has already shown you, in claiming you as his child while you were ungrateful and wicked.
As recipients of the Father's mercy, we are witnesses to God's kindness, which transforms the ungrateful and the wicked into children of the Most High. We are free to act out of the mercy we have already received rather than bound to seek grace elsewhere (the word translated as "credit" in vv 32, 33, 34 is the Greek word usually translated as "grace"). God's action toward us is the basis of our action toward enemies, abusers, and beggars. God makes what is impossible for human beings possible (Luke 18:27).
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky
Edited by - Electra on 05/16/2003 3:52:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/16/2003 10:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Tough question.
I think love is a willingness to sacrifice for the other with no return. Obviously, to give one's life for others is the greatest act of love possible, but we don't usually do that sort of thing, and if so not more than once  .
A more common, but still difficult, way to sacrifice for/love another is staying celibate and giving up a good deal of one's future autonomy for another.
I also think that, as a teacher, putting time into teaching and giving attention to students, when one is rewarded with raises primarily for research is a form of love.
So love=sacrifice, like wasting one's time trying to convince people that, for some homosexuals, their homosexuality is constitutional and unlikely to change and we need to take this fact into account in how our churches deal with/witness to them in their ordeal.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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groovychick
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 5/16/2003 11:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Great comments Electra and DLW!
Love aint easy, is it? Loving on an enemy or someone doing bad to you takes major God work! Man, that is the ultimate sacrifice of a personal feelings and agenda! Your bless the ones who curse you! Tough. But who can argue with Scripture? Not I!
Question- can one do it while not forsaking truth? How does a person keep the truth and love like that at the same time? Is the truth love or is the truth judgment?
Our love makes Jesus known to all the world! In a dog-eat-dog world, a Christian turning the other cheek majorly stands out!
Do you think vs. 35 when it says "lend" is talking about lend to enemies since the verse begins talking of enemies? How radical would that be?
A verse came to mind reading DLW's words on sacrificing our life. 1 John talks of laying down our life for a brother being the ultimate show of love. Can we lay our life down in non physical ways or is this refering to physical? Is going out of my way to help a person maybe laying down the life?
DL, when you talk of wasting time trying to convince someone it seems more unloving than loving 'cause it's God who convinces a person. Getting worked up 'cause we want to convince someone they're wrong, who can blame us. But is it love? Can one share facts, opinions, truth, or even lies and than accept the other's nonagreement. Hey even the OVers think this. That God won't make us do anything 'cause it aint love. If we follow him, are we being loving making someone think like us? It's a thought!
No easy answers, eh?
Peace out!
To God Be the Glory, Great Things He Hath Done! | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/16/2003 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Question- can one do it while not forsaking truth? How does a person keep the truth and love like that at the same time? Is the truth love or is the truth judgment?
Well, I guess the only one with access to ultimate truth is God. However, the truths commonly developed in Science do depend upon selflessness by all parties involved. What matters is not whether my findings get accepted as truth, but rather that the best explanation that fits the available evidence is accepted and disseminated. The spread of truth requires love of truth!
quote:
Do you think vs. 35 when it says "lend" is talking about lend to enemies since the verse begins talking of enemies? How radical would that be?
For much of Christian history, the taking of interest was considered a sin, usury. I think enemies are those trying to transfer resources away from us to themselves(I.e., perhaps through changing the tax-system). That would imply accepting the rightness and justness of redistributional policies that end up raising our tax-burden. That would certainly be a form of love that isn't seen too much today.
quote:
A verse came to mind reading DLW's words on sacrificing our life. 1 John talks of laying down our life for a brother being the ultimate show of love. Can we lay our life down in non physical ways or is this refering to physical? Is going out of my way to help a person maybe laying down the life?
There are actions that involve accepting a higher risk of dying(Being a fireperson, police-officer, politician, foreign diplomat). My thing was that talking about a willingness to die for someone is abused since the likelihood of having to follow through may seem quite low. So it may be more important to consider the concrete ways in which we might actually make sacrifices for others. This brings to my mind the scene in the movie Changing Lanes between the lawyer and his wife. She tells him she loves him, but only to manipulate him into going along with the extortion her father/his bosses are trying to do. That isn't love. What he does at the end, risking his marriage and future to try to set right the wrongs he caused during the day, that was love.
quote:
DL, when you talk of wasting time trying to convince someone it seems more unloving than loving 'cause it's God who convinces a person. Getting worked up 'cause we want to convince someone they're wrong, who can blame us. But is it love? Can one share facts, opinions, truth, or even lies and than accept the other's nonagreement. Hey even the OVers think this. That God won't make us do anything 'cause it aint love. If we follow him, are we being loving making someone think like us? It's a thought!
It may be unloving, but that brings us back to the need for a commitment to truth. If my commitment to truth leads me to strongly contradict someone who is misinterpreting the Bible to say it talks of homosexuality rather than homosexual acts(see my own link on this issue) then I don't consider taking a strong stand against that person to be an unloving act.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 5/16/2003 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Love is pouring your last drink into the ocean of another's future.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/16/2003 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | groovy: Love aint easy, is it?
Electra: No way! It's impossible!
groovy: Loving on an enemy or someone doing bad to you takes major God work!
Electra: With God, all things are possible!
groovy: Man, that is the ultimate sacrifice of a personal feelings and agenda! Your bless the ones who curse you! Tough. But who can argue with Scripture? Not I!
Electra: Well, arguing with Scripture is possible. And so is arguing about Scripture. I respect people who don't buy it, or who don't see it the way I do. But I keep coming back to it.
groovy: Question- can one do it while not forsaking truth? How does a person keep the truth and love like that at the same time?
Electra: Here is a lather-rinse-repeat approach to the truth/love issue: 1) confront sinners: “If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender…” (Luke 17:3a); 2) forgive sinners: “if there is repentance, you must forgive” (Luke 17:3b). 3); repeat this process indefinitely: “And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive” (Luke 17:4).
groovy: Is the truth love or is the truth judgment?
Electra: YES! (Sorry, that was the Lutheran in me  ). The truth is wrapped up with the way and the life in Jesus.
groovy: Our love makes Jesus known to all the world! In a dog-eat-dog world, a Christian turning the other cheek majorly stands out!
Electra: Yeah…too bad no examples come to mind…
groovy: Do you think vs. 35 when it says "lend" is talking about lend to enemies since the verse begins talking of enemies? How radical would that be?
Electra: I think it means lend to whoever asks from you, friend or foe.
groovy: No easy answers, eh?
Electra: Live and learn!
Peace,
Electra
p.s. I enjoyed your insights on Laika's spacepuppy.
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/16/2003 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Um, speaking of the lather-rinse-repeat approach...
groovychick, if you really are bob/bobbie/et al. you are not so groovy. I feel duped too.
If you took any sort of responsibility for some of the things you said instead of blaming other people and sneaking around maybe we could chat. Till then...
Bye, bye
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/16/2003 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | |
groovychick is a 23 year old musician  and bob/Bobbie is a high school teacher  who is 30; don’t sound or appear like the same person to me, but what do I know  ?
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/16/2003 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | |
All joking aside, I should know when to remain et alia, neutral that is, huh neuter? That’s more than a position of disengagement, isn’t it, ouch . . . 
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/17/2003 6:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, but groovychick's mode of discourse is so fakey. It's also quite surprising that she got going right when Seesaw was first accused of being Bobby-in-disquise.
I think we're going to have to form a Bobb-alert-system to prevent this sort of thing from reoccuring...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 5/18/2003 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think we're going to have to form a Bobb-alert-system to prevent this sort of thing from reoccuring...
I don't think that was a "loving" thing to say. What is love? One thing for sure, love is NOT rude.
I am so saddened by reading through some of the threads on this board. It might be me but there sure seems to be a lot of belittling and joking at the expense of others on the various threads. That is DEFINITELY NOT love. Jesus would NOT have belittled nor joked about what a "pharisee" said. Jesus embraced those who were hurting and disciplined those who were doing the hurting.
I am so, so sad at how so many posters are interacting and treating one another. I have a hard time thinking that a nonbeliever would see the discussions on this board as loving. My goodness, I'd stay away from Christianity once I read how some of the Christians in this community interact and exchange differences!
trosie 
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/19/2003 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm sorry, but a good number of us were suffering because of a long line of threads by someone whose style of writing was very similar to Bobby(Roberta) of the past.
The whole reason Roberta was asked off of the web-site was because of the effects her posts were having on others...
I think people understand that when someone repeatedly ignores what you are saying and says degrading things about your religious beliefs, that this tends to raise some ire...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 5/19/2003 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Trosie,
That fact that you are disappointed in DLW instead of the other posters that have brought us to this unfortunate low point, is indicative of the the fact that you haven't been reading the board for awhile.
-S
"Dreams are illustrations...from the book your soul is writing about you." -Marsha Norman
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 5/19/2003 4:34 PM (GMT -6) | | True, I haven't been reading the posts as much as I used to but I have encountered how Bob has interacted with people.... My point is that if we are discussing LOVE then it just seems like we might want to be "trying" to practice how the bible defines love which is PATIENT and KIND. Love turns the other cheek.... Jesus told Peter to put the sword away.... I think that Bob has been hurt and disappointed by how much support he/she felt regarding the divorce (whether justified or not). I think that the LAST thing a person who has been hurt needs is to be rejected because of some behavior that is unwanted. Do you know what I mean? Love IS patient and kind and love is NOT rude.
I wasn't singling DLW out when I wrote my last post and I am sorry if it came off that way.
Debating can become so passionate for everyone that we forget that we are striving for a win/win situation NOT a I win/you lose one.
And that's the opinion of this outsider 
trosie
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