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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > The Slippery subject of Causality | Forum Quick Jump
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|  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 3/27/2003 9:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | This kind of comes off a couple of threads... In the Quentin Smith and Causality thread there is a discussion of Smith's trouble with William Lane Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument. Craig says this about the 1st premise that 1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.... quote: Now, with respect to premise (1), whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence, I'm not going to say very much in defense of this premise this evening. I really don't think that it's necessary because the premise that whatever begins to exist must have a cause of its existence I think is so intuitively obvious that scarcely anybody could sincerely deny that it is false. In fact, David Hume himself agreed that this principle is true. In a letter to John Stewart dated February, 1754, Hume wrote, "But allow me to tell you that I never asserted so absurd a Proposition as that anything might arise without cause: I only maintain’d, that our Certainty of the Falshood of that Proposition proceeded neither from Intuition nor Demonstration; but from another Source."{3} Hume didn't think that you could prove the causal principle, but he certainly believed in it. Similarly, as is well known, Kant held the principle "Every event has a cause" to be a synthetic a priori principle; that is, it's an informative proposition characterized by both universality and necessity.{4} So, as I say, it seems to me that this first premise is intuitively obvious...
Quentin Smith disagrees. He says quote: Bill Craig also says that "Whatever begins to exist as a cause" is self–evident. And he also says that "The universe has a cause" is self–evident or intuitively obvious. But that clearly is not the case. Most physicists who work in this area—Stephen Hawking and all the rest—most philosophers and just purely on my anecdotal evidence from asking students in my classes what they think—more than half usually say they don't find this self–evident. In fact, only a small proportion say they find it self–evident, and they always happen to be theists, and the other ones say either they don't know (the most common response) or that is not self–evident.
The Thomistic cosmological argument is also based on the principle of existential causality (example- Geisler Philosophy of Religion) And in a sense any of the telelogical or moral arguments-or for that matter, any argument-supposes that the principle of causalty or sufficient reason is true. SIDENOTE--Geisler in his Philosophy of Religion makes a clear distinction between these two, but I have trouble see the difference, so if anyone wants to address what the difference is feel free...
So here is my question, or wondering on this subject. Common sense tells me that I agree with the statement whatever begins to exist has a cause. But how do I know this to be the case? I haven't ever taken a philosophy course or anything like that but I know that this is a basic philosophic question. It can't come merely from observation, because without the concept of causalty I wouldn't be able to understand what I see and make causal connections. From the quote above Craig says that Kant considered causalty a synthetic a priori principle. I think (basically) this means that this knowledge is before our experience of anything. I know that I'm struggling to make my struggle clear... It just seems confusing that something that seems so clear to me -this principle of existental causalty- is not accepted by someone like Quentin Smith. I guess at the root of this long post is an epistemological question- how do I know that the principle of causalty is true?
Ross
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Marc Registered Member
 Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 11 | Posted 3/30/2003 3:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Ross! The question of justification for the principle of causality has been a question which I myself have wrestled with on and off for several years. It's just not something one wants to argue for because it just seems so intuitively obvious! As Aristotle pointed out one never wants to try to prove the more obvious via the less obvious. That asside I think a good argumen can be formulated in support of this principle and I will try to do so: First I think the principle itself (Every effect has a cause) is self evident. By a cause we mean "That which produces something" and by an effect we mean "that which is produced". So I think the real trick is in showing that things which begin to exist require production. It seems to me that anythng which requires prouction is dependant for its current state of affairs so one could argue: (1)Things which begin to exist are either dependant for there existance or independant (2)Things which begin to exist are not independant for: (i)If a thing is indepenant it requires no explanation for its current stat of affairs outside of itself. (ii)If a thing requires no explanation for its current state of affairs the explanation must lie within itself. (iii)But for any item that begins to exist, the explanation cannot lie within itself because: A.If it is of the nature of a thing to exist it could never not exist. B.It is not the case that things which begin to exist never not existed.(pardon the bad grammar) C.Therefore It is not of my nature to exist. (iv)Therefre I do not exist independantly 3)Therefore anything that begins to exist is dependant (and needs a cause)
Now when I talk about "Explanation" I do not mean produer (which would make the argument question-begging) nor do I mean to rely on the Liebnizian principle of sufficient reason. Rather I mean to rely on the Thomistic distinction between Being and Essance...or What a thins and the fact That a thing is. It just makes sense to my mind that for any object that does not contain within itself naturaly some property, if that entity is to exhibit that property it must be added to it by some outside agent.
I may be completely off base or just plain obscure and unclear and if so I apologise..I just wanted to share my thoughts on the topic..let me know what you think:) God Bless! Mark
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 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 3/30/2003 9:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks Marc, I'm glad that there is someone who has thought about this subject also. I don't have much time but I'll get back to you in a day to interact with your thoughts.
Anyone else, feel free to jump in with thoughts...
Ross
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Matthew Timothy Short Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002 Total Posts : 635 | Posted 3/30/2003 11:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | CAUSALITY is the agency of a cause; agency is the action or power of a cause, cause produces...
To produce is to originate an effect or result; to bring about; as, disease produces pain; vice produces misery.
To produce is to give being or form to; to manufacture; to make; as, a manufacturer produces excellent wares.
To produce is to yield or furnish; to gain; as, money at interest produces an income; capital produces profit.
Cause always and obviously leads to an effect and the source of any cause possesses the power to produce said action; this is what should be known as, CAUSALITY.
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity... | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 3/31/2003 11:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | rossfadeinout,
You said, Common sense tells me that I agree with the statement whatever begins to exist has a cause. But how do I know this to be the case?
I'm no philosopher (lucky enough just to be able to spell the word), but the statement "Common sense tells me . . . " is quite suggestive towards finding your answer, I believe.
In regard to this issue, common sense would be more than just "Well, it just is," or "I just know it inuitively." All one has to do is consider the sun, for example: it's burning out. Matter of fact, it's not too much to say that anyone, with just a little knowledge about the universe, can figure out real quickly that it not only wasn't what it is today, but that it's fading away. (Something about that law of etropy or 2nd law of thermodynamics. One of them!)
So, common sense comes in at this point and says, "Gee, if the universe is fading away,"--burning out, dying, loosing energy, etc.--"than it isn't it's own source of existance. Perhaps a few other ideas could be put forward (acceptable or not) like infinite regression or . . . a Creator, but it certainly cannot be that the universe made itself. That's just common sense!
Starkman
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 4/3/2003 1:02 PM (GMT -6) |   | Quentin Smith puts his belief in Quantum Mechanics, as the logical “uncaused beginning of the universe.” He is wrong in his assumptions on this.
The scientists he refers to are all believers in this theory.

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