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To what extent do you think God does this? Would God arbitrarily: kill someone, cause suffering or other evils, or prevent a person's entrance into heaven?

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Whoa, whoa, whoa. The Good Ship Empiress has once again passed the USS Brett in the night.

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*giggles*

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We're on the same page here, and you don't know it. When I say that our ultimate purpose is to "know" God, I'm certainly not describing some clinical, academic, legalistic experience. I mean exactly what you are describing: seeking Him for the sole purpose of having a LOVING and passionate relationship with him. THAT IS THE TRUTH THAT I BELIEVE GOD IS TRYING TO CONVEY!!!! Okay?

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Okay Brett, I believe you. This is why I gave you my disclaimer:

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BJS..here's a DISCLAIMER Everything I say here is not directed at you specifically, it's just that your beliefs and thoughts reflect a majority of Christians' and I'm responding to that school of thought in general...I feel it has gone down a tangential path from Jesus' message. It's more a matter of what we EMPHASIZE....I hope everyone can keep that in mind and not argue or misstate my position!

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because I heard you stating the same assumptions evangelicals so typically work from. It sounded like you were espousing the same assumptions and I was responding to those realizing you might not be.

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But this has nothing to do with the concern I am raising in this topic.

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I think it bears on the subject! But anyway...

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What concerns me is that even THAT TRUTH is too foggy. Vexen is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I believe he is genuinely searching, intellectually honest, etc., yet he comes to an entirely different conclusion about this "truth" that we are to have a loving and passionate relationship with God. Why isn't God more clear about who he is so that people like Vexen (and all of us at times) don't have to doubt who and what God is?

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That's why I said that people already know in their hearts what is "true" and that our "facts" don't amount to much in the sight of God. I am not about to say that because an intellectually honest atheist does not believe in a personal God, God will condemn him. God looks at our hearts, not our doctrinal systems.

If my previous responses to your questions don't shed any light on this question, I'm not sure what else I can say. I don't think it's easy one! God is a holy mystery and an enigma in many ways.

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My dear, you are turning this into an argument about "hearing" versus "doing." I'm not debating that. I agree. ACTING on truth is much more imporant than just KNOWING it. Right on. But we do need to know what to act on. Your KNOWING Micah 5:8 has compelled you to ACT on it. Hearing and Doing. Knowing and Acting. Simple enough.

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I'm glad you agree. Most church folk say this but still work off of false assumptions. I mean, why does the Church still emphasize doctrine and belief over action? Why do evangelist's try and get people to accept the Four Spiritual Laws as some kind of magic formula? Why do nearly ALL mission efforts focus solely on preaching and conversion rather than service!?? Why? Because they don't REALLY believe this...they pay it lip service but deny it in their actions!

Thanks Brett for the discussion.

Mephi said:

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For example, please recall the incident about Genie that Semeia details on THIS PAGE. Now, in this situation, if we were to say that God CHOSE NOT to do absolutely everything in His power to get her out of that situation and restored when he COULD HAVE done more, what would you say about Him? Notice. This is NOT him killing someone OR preventing someone from heaven. And this is not him CAUSING the suffering. What would you say? How would you feel about that?

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But Mephi, a belief in true human free will whilst on earth, as per the Open View, does get at this question. Just as God "searched for someone to stand in the gap and found none" among the ancient Hebrews, so God searches for people who will heed the call to respond to situations like this, but in our free will, we resist. The "workers are few."

My assumption is that God was CONSTANTLY calling people, neighbors, all sorts of people to intervene...to investigate, ask questions, etc. which would have led to her discovery...but I think every last person resisted and made excuses: "I shouldn't get involved" or they used their reason, "I don't have any reason to think something's wrong," or they were lazy, "It's not MY problem," or "I'll do it later," etc. Apparently it took 13 years for someone to heed the Divine call. God called the doctors who finally found her to love her...but they refused to of their own volition, consumed with greed.

This is the painful and tragic side of free will, but I'm not sure it is an accurate gauge as to whether or not God was doing everything God could have done through free agents. Also...this is THE most difficult issue...it is mysterious at many points, as I myself have stated that I DON'T understand why the effects of sin are so terrible.

What I'd like to know is...how can you continue to praise, love, trust, and worship a God who doesn't do all that he can do to prevent such atrocities? It seems the righteous response would be to RESIST such a Deity!

Peace,
Miss E

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My assumption is that God was CONSTANTLY calling people, neighbors, all sorts of people to intervene...to investigate, ask questions, etc. which would have led to her discovery...but I think every last person resisted and made excuses: "I shouldn't get involved" or they used their reason, "I don't have any reason to think something's wrong," or they were lazy, "It's not MY problem," or "I'll do it later," etc. Apparently it took 13 years for someone to heed the Divine call. God called the doctors who finally found her to love her...but they refused to of their own volition, consumed with greed.

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Undoubtedly, this is what Doc or any other open theist would probably say. However, as you well, know this is nothing more that God doing ALL THAT HE CAN DO, within the open view context. I'm saying that God is not obligated to do this...and perhaps may NOT. But by your response, I think it's safe to assume that you would not like that prospect very much. Hmmm...


You also said:

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What I'd like to know is...how can you continue to praise, love, trust, and worship a God who doesn't do all that he can do to prevent such atrocities? It seems the righteous response would be to RESIST such a Deity!

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A human being attempting to resist God and His agenda. What a novel idea. Oops. Not so novel. Satan did it. Oh well. LOL! For my reasoning for honoring, praising God amid my view, see the top post ON THIS PAGE.

Oh, heck. And I STILL haven't gotten around to finishing that "Omnibenevolence" thread, have I? Hmm. Better do that.

But that post should help.

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God is willing to forgive all types of sin that we would never forgive OURSELVES for...and you wonder why I love God?

God would use ME of all people to even be a minor cog in his plan (even though it sucks many times)...a veritable MAGGOT who has disdained Him more times than I care to count...and you wonder why I love God?

Jesus would love me...JUST BECAUSE I AM...and you wonder why I love God??

Heh. Recognize game. Anyone who has tasted the sweet-n-sour goodness and majesty of God and rejects it is a FOOL. I will say it just like that. A moronic FOOL! It doesn't MATTER that God hurts me. It doesn't MATTER that God puts us through hell...or allows Satan to do it. It doesn't MATTER that we see evil all around us. If Christ is real and He was indeed raised from the dead, then we have CLEAR indication of God's feelings toward humanity. I don't need no "certainty". I will trust Him based on what he's done not only for humanity in general in Christ, but also with what he's done for ME personally.

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God cannot be the God of both Love and Evil. A house divided cannot stand. To the extent that he allows evil, or even to the extent that sometimes he himself could be said to cause us to suffer, cannot be understood as God sometimes loving us and sometimes NOT loving us. It has to be seen from the perspective of the ultimate loving act: Jesus dying for us on the cross. No matter how painful life is, we either believe that God loves us or we don't. It makes no sense to me to believe that sometimes God breaks our arm pulling us out of the way of a speeding truck, but sometimes he breaks our arm because he just feels like beating the crap out of us that day. It doesn't compute.

Mephi, I think your posts on this topic, in spite of your denials, presuppose that God has an ultimate purpose that is loving. Do you deny that?

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Nicely said, Semeia. This is the same problem that I have been trying to point out to Mephi in several of our conversations. As I see it, Mephi is either a "theistic bootlicker" OR he believes that God is good. He has tried to articulate a middle ground, but it only comes across as contradictory and illogical to me.

Let's hear it, Meph.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

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God's unsurpassably good act is seen in the Christ Work. What this work does is show us that God is all-good. Because of this work, we say that God is all-good. Most questionable statements and actions of God that may seem arbitrary or whimsical are only to be seen as APPARENTLY so. Though there may be some areas of whimsy in God, they could ONLY be with inconsequential things. For the most part, God's work in Christ shows us his all-good nature. Thus we say that for every questionable act, THERE IS SOME GOOD REASON FOR IT, but due to our infinitude, we cannot know it. Thus we trust centrally in God's revelation in Christ to guide us.

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Either God chooses to love us all the time, in which case he doesn't stab us in the eye on a whim; or God DOESN'T choose to love us all the time, in which case Jesus' depiction of the Father is just a story, and not one we can really count on.

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Doc once said to you (and I agreed) that you really can't separate omnibenevolence from being all-loving. It doesn't work. Not the way you guys are describing love. I suggest the following:

YOUR "loving" = Doc's GOODNESS
YOUR "unloving" = Doc's EVIL

Think about it, Semeia. It makes perfect sense. I kept wondering why your argumentation seemed so weird to me, at times. At some points, it would seem very nominalistic...but at others very realist. THIS is why. Your argumentation is essentially the same as Doc's. But where he uses "omnibenevolence" grounded ontologically, YOU use "all-loving" grounded in God's unshakable CHOICE. Though you grant God moral freedom, your position is PRACTICALLY the same as Doc's in that you would say that God NEVER does anything "unloving" from Creation forward.

Moreover, while Doc "judges" Doc according to his ideas of "good" and "evil", YOU seem to judge God on your views of "loving" and "unloving" Sure, you can claim that this is JESUS's belief, but so does Doc.


Now how does all this apply? Simple. You are saying essentially the SAME THING that Doc is, but in different terms:

An all-loving God CANNOT do things of significance arbitrarily for his OWN reasons alone. Not only must they adhere reasonably to what WE consider as being "loving,", but they must also NOT SIGNIFICANTLY TRANSCEND what we consider loving. If that happens, some type of nominalistic autocratic rule occurs, and we can't tell God from Satan, in some sense.

Before you respond, Semeia, REALLY think about what I've said here. I think upon reflection that you may agree with me. And this is why we won't get along. If you consider any type of arbitrary action on significant matters to be unloving or "evil", than OF COURSE you won't like my ideas. Hmm.. I think we are ON to something.


Thoughtfully,

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Either God chooses to love us all the time, in which case he doesn't stab us in the eye on a whim; or God DOESN'T choose to love us all the time, in which case Jesus' depiction of the Father is just a story, and not one we can really count on.

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Like I said above and elsewhere, I agree that God CHOOSES to love us. And I agree that "He has shown us compassion, grace and mercy unparalleled." Given that, what in the world would make you think that he sometimes chooses to do something unloving or EVIL just because he feels like it? If you love someone, do you periodically cause them pain just because you can? If we happen to cause pain to someone we love, isn't it out of ignorance or our own limitation or because we believe in the end it will be good for them (like forcing our child to wear a coat in the cold, or forcing an alcoholic into treatment against their will)? Is it possible to do evil out of love? I say NO! That is a contradiction. If you love someone you don't poke them in the eye for no reason, or kill them for no reason. Why would God be any different?

Or are you saying that sometimes God doesn't love us? If you are, how do you square that with what Jesus says about God's love?

Either God chooses to love us all the time, in which case he doesn't stab us in the eye on a whim; or God DOESN'T choose to love us all the time, in which case Jesus' depiction of the Father is just a story, and not one we can really count on.

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Preach it, sister. Meph, THIS point is where I think your position on omnibenevolence falls apart. You seem to have no problem with God directly contradicting himself. If he says he is all-loving/good, then he IS. If he says we should shun evil, but accept him, then your statement that "God may well allow or ordain evil at times" CANNOT be true.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."