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might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/12/2002 3:34 AM (GMT -6)

I feel the call... I'm getting out.

The whole sunday morning, sing a few songs, listen to a sermon, pray a few prayers, is a thing of the past. I'm convinced that this is NOT what God intended for His church ( the called out ones ).

No more church hierarchies, no more calling some man "pastor", no more letting some paid clergy do what God called me to do.

I feel a bit like Abraham, called out of Ur, journeying to a land that I know not. Adventure, learning how to live by the Spirit in the company of my brothers and sisters. Following the pillar of fire that God has set before me, instead of trying to fulfill someone elses "vision".

It's scary, no longer able to just hide in the crowd. Standing on my own two feet, with Jesus as my source of life, not my doing the "right" thing.

I'll keep you'all informed of my progess, my failures, and my victories.

peace and love, don

<quote>
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse</quote>

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/12/2002 4:14 AM (GMT -6)

Wow Don. I think I understand how you feel. Like you said, though, keep "in the company of brothers and sisters." Can't do without community.

Tom

"It might take a year or two to begin to understand Calvinism. But you won't do so by reading books. It's a transformation of outlook." Al & Fred

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/12/2002 4:58 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Wow Don. I think I understand how you feel. Like you said, though, keep "in the company of brothers and sisters." Can't do without community.

I agree 100%. Actually that's one of the issues that pushed me over the edge. I found that most of the worship was "all alone, together" . The company we keep at "church" rarely amounts to more than mere acquaintances, I know, there are some exceptions, but mostly I know folks by the shape of their bald spot. They are never allowed to speak as part of the "service", and I wonder when the last time somebody asked them what song they would like to sing. I don't know them in any real sense of the word.

I look forward to investing my life christian fellowship. I not sure what form that will take, but it's very high on my list.

peace and love, don

<quote>
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse</quote>

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/12/2002 5:25 AM (GMT -6)

Woe! Dude... SOUNDS exciting, radical, freeing, scary. I'm happy for you. But, if you'll let me, as a friend I also have a concern.

You know I know you're particular situation. (To readers, I was a pastor in might-be-dons church 20 years ago). You know I know you've been heading in this direction for some time. You know I totally understand your dilemma. And, I think, you know I agree with the radical difference between religion and genuine faith. I thus wholly support you follow discern God's leading into "a foreign land." Go for it.

But (here's my concern) I want to encourage you Don to not give up on community. The heart of the body of Christ is community. To loose community is to loose the heart of Christianity. Biblically, with very rare exceptions (e.g. an apostle or evangelist) there's no concept of an INDIVIDUAL CHRISTIAN. You're part of "the body" and so need to be connected.

Now, it sounds like this is precisely why you are leaving your church. No community! Just a song and a sermon. Got it. But I want to really encourage you to QUICKLY get into a community. My worry -- based on much personal experience as a pastor -- is that we are creatures of habit, and that when a person looses the rythm of "church going" they can become just another American individualistic bedside baptist that makes no impact for the kingdom. I've seen this many times. Whatever good your church is doing now, you are part of that -- viz. your ministry there, your contributions etc... If you feel led to leave this, fine. But you have important contributions to make ELSEWHERE. And that ELSEWHERE will be some community. So as a friend I want to encourage you to THIS WEEK start looking for some thing else.

As I see it, might-be-don, you and your wife have two options.

A) find a church that is strong on SMALL GROUPS or CELL GROUPS. Community never really happens in large group contexts. You need REAL RELATIONSHIPS. It doesn't matter how big the Sunday event is IF their are small groups you can get involved in. THIS is your REAL church.

b) Become part of the "house church" movement. There are several loosely organized house church movements in the US where people make their homes into churches. It's likely there are house churches in your area. You can probably locate them via the internet.

Now, you'll have to be a little careful with "b." Many of the house church groups and individual house churches are wonderful. But SOME of the house-church deals are sort of cultic/ fundy /controlling etc... You'll just have to try them and see.

Be bold and wise. Keep us (or at least ME) up to speed on what transpires.

STEP OUT my friend. Do it as gracefully as possible. Though you're not finding what you're looking for in this church, your pastors are doing the best they can. Tell them I said "hi" and wish them well on your way out.

In his love,

your friend,

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/12/2002 7:04 AM (GMT -6)

Doc says:

quote:
STEP OUT my friend. Do it as gracefully as possible. Though you're not finding what you're looking for in this church, your pastors are doing the best they can. Tell them I said "hi" and wish them well on your way out.

One of the reasons that I chose this particular time to step out has to due with a sincere belief that at the present time there is no "reason" for me to leave. I'm not mad at anyone. Nothing has happened to cause me to have to leave. No one brought bad food to the potluck dinner. The ministry is at the top of it's game. New building, which means great new electronic toys for me to play with. I could live in peace and grow old and die.

I given the pastors fair notice so that they can find replacements to continue on without me. My intent is to leave knowing full well that they would be happy to welcome me back should I choose to return.

I have been doing some research about your a & b suggestions. It appears that both suggestions are not without problems. Each can easily become nothing more than microcosms of the institutional church, or, as you say, worse.

I am not prepared to even try to stand alone. "American individualistic bedside baptist" is not my heart. I may even try attending an Eastern Orthodox church :-) . Al would be proud.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/12/2002 11:53 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I may even try attending an Eastern Orthodox church :-) . Al would be proud.

If so, then try the Saturday Evening Vespers. But you need fellowship. Do any churches near you have an old fashioned Baptist mid-week prayer meeting? There, you can be a visitor, but still pray for the Church (Cap-C). Kind'a like moving to a new town, or visiting for a summer.

Thinking...

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/13/2002 3:57 AM (GMT -6)

I see that everyone is concerned about fellowship. This is an issue my family has dealt with before, successfully.

All three of my children were home schooled for the majority of their education. The first question we were always asked, "What about socialization?". First I would point out that the socialization they would receive in the public school system was far from ideal, I don't think I need to go into the details of that one. Next I would explain the vast amount of resources available for home school families. When we started looking, all kinds of opportunities presented themselves. If your not looking, it appears that nothing is there. But when you open your eyes and look around, the angels appear.

My initial plans are to begin visiting other area churches and keep my eyes and ears open for announcments about local area groups. We will begin this process right away.

Rather than insist my children follow me in this quest, I have given them the choice of staying where they are, or riding along. My children are college age and well able to make this decision for themselves. They have known nothing other than the church they grew up in, and I'm not looking to traumatize them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the existing church structure is "of the devil" and I'm not looking to get them to change their evil ways. I feel a call and I'm not looking to tear down the church ( little c ) . I do believe we are all called to live peacefully with one another, especially the brethren.

the journey continues...

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 12/13/2002 8:21 AM (GMT -6)

Hey might-be-don,

You stated I found that most of the worship was "all alone, together" . The company we keep at "church" rarely amounts to more than mere acquaintances, I know, there are some exceptions, but mostly I know folks by the shape of their bald spot. They are never allowed to speak as part of the "service", and I wonder when the last time somebody asked them what song they would like to sing. I don't know them in any real sense of the word.

Man, what a mouthfull. Can I associate with you there!

I've learned, as one who's very much a loner and has withdrawn from the church-service stuff in the past (sin in my own life didn't help matters either) that "fellowship" isn't just the getting around Christians for the sake of it. There's an intangible which often I don't even like; something behind the scenes (particularly in small-group gatherings) where I may even be bored during the meeting, but that 'behind-the-scenes' thing going on is far more necessary than I even want to admit.

I myself can really opt-out of a lot of Christian "fellowship", but I've found that there's something going on which I can't see that contributes to the ongoing staying power of wanting to even be a part of the body of Christ in the first place. In other words, I could have so easily have become a lone Christian and FULLY believed that I was better off. Well, perhaps I would have been better off in regard to the boredom, the lack of depth, the coldness, and all those other things you've mentioned (boy, I can relate). Even in the church I now attend, I'm just a number, and we have all the same issues you've mentioned. The song portion of the service is nice, and the pastor gives good messages, but there's that darned stay-away-from-me attituted (said to be native to the Midwesterner, but it's all over the place.), there's the coldness and other issues to be delt with. Yes, in the past, I would have checked out and felt the better for it. However, today I realize that there is something else that happens, particularly in small groups.

The best I've come in putting my finger on it is comparable to my own body: most all the time of any given day, I am generally unaware of many parts of my body, namely those inner parts I can neither see nor feel. However, if there is injury to any of them, I feel it. If any of them is removed, there are repercussions. Isolate me from all my body, and I would be empty of it, and helpless without it (for functioning on earth): dead. It is the same with the body of Christ; hurting, missing and isolated parts create pain, emptiness, and helplessness. Maybe not immediately, but that fact that the body of Christ is to function similar to that of the human body, is to say there absolutely will be loss if we do not keep our hearts, minds and souls close to one another. I don't necessarily like this a lot of the times, but I've found it to be the truth. The DANGER of being out of contact or "fellowship" with other Christians is that there are few noticable symptoms early on to warn the heart that something is ammis. Those habits Doc mentioned set in, and malnutrition is seen after it's caused its damage, not while it's causing it. Oh, God's mercy and grace are great, but regardless, one has to eat to stay alive.

As I say, so often I find myself saying 'What's this all for, this going to church stuff, if this is all it's ever going to be?' I'm in a small group now, and I believe there's going to be a lot of good to come out of it. If nothing else, I will have found that I'm not near as close to danger as I would be if I weren't involved in some aspect or another with my fellow brothers and sisters.

Man, it ain't easy sometimes, might-be-don. I'm there with ya, brother!

For the Body,

Starkman

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/13/2002 9:29 AM (GMT -6)

Starkman says:

quote:
In other words, I could have so easily have become a lone Christian and FULLY believed that I was better off.

Starkman,

I realize from the very start that trying to be a lone Christian is... anti-Christ. My goal is deep, meaningful relationships with my brothers and sisters. I count you, and others on this board, as one way of achiving this goal ( don't start, I realize that it plays a minor role, but it does play a part ), thus I'm sharing my adventure with you all.

I'm glad to hear that you were able to press-on through the lone ranger stage and get involved with a group. How did you find the small group?

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 12/13/2002 10:08 AM (GMT -6)

Hey there, might-be-don,

My wife and I live kind of out in the middle of not-quite-nowhere in the midwestern part of Minnesota. It's very Lutheran around here; nominal Christians, unfortunately. So, my wife and I have been in prayer off and on for the year we've been up here, wanting something more. Our church is 30 miles away, which isn't bad, but it's hard when you need something more (the church only has a Sunday service.)

Well, we found out about this group of Christians who had been meeting regularly just a few miles down the street. They're from different churchs, a few even from our church, so that was kind of cool. Unfortunately, the meetings were more bogarted by a gal, and sometimes others, who ended up talking the whole time about their problems. Bible study was miminal. I dropped out of it, my wife kept going, but then even she got annoyed by it. Then the couple hosting the group (at their house) had some difficulties come up, so the meetings were put off for a short time.

We just had a pot-luck get-together at our house for the first time in a while. It was good, some things got cleared up, some ideas shared, and some good fellowship. We're ironing out the kinks, but it looks like things will go well; we all know where we stand and what we want. We'll do some worship when to start, a good Bible study, and then some prayer and fellowship where folks can share more intimately with their needs without taking time from the other areas of the meeting. Since I'm the one sharing this coming Tuesday, I thought I'd teach on something really pretty simple, plain and easy to grasp, like . . . the Open View! NOT! (At least not yet, though it has come up in the past)

Well, coffee's calling me at the nearby cafe (Oh, how I miss the Caribous and Starbucks!)

For gathering in small groups,

Starkman

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/15/2002 3:30 PM (GMT -6)

I believe Starkman's experience (which is quite typical) illustrates several important points about small groups (things we at WHC have come to realize and are in the process of addressing).
1. The small group needs a ministry purpose OUTSIDE OF ITSELF.
2. The small group needs a competent leader who can, among other things, "hold in check" any who want to turn it into a person therapy session.
3. The small group needs to regularly HAVE FUN doing things together.

They're out there might -be. Blessings in your search.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/16/2002 2:56 AM (GMT -6)

The journey continues...

Well, I've begun to communicate to the key folks in the technical ministries in the church my intentions to leave at the end of January. Most of these folks I consider to be my friends and I want to be able to train my replacements so that the ministry can continue uninterrupted. For those that don't know, I produce and edit both a radio and tv show for the church and provide oversight for the live sound.

So far, the stunned silence and shocked look on their face let's me know they really did not see this coming. After I let them know that it wasn't some mis-deed on anyone's part, they begin to soften. They mostly appear to be sympathetic to my longings, but totally taken aback that I would actually try and do something about it.

The training will be difficult for some of them, but the leadership is trying to keep a positive spin on things.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/26/2002 3:06 AM (GMT -6)

The journey continues...

The cats out of the bag. I have informed the entire church staff of my plans to leave the church.

The senior pastor is taking the high road and not trying to make a secret out of my desire to leave. He called a meeting with the heads of staff and allowed me time to address them about my intentions. This is great, an opportunity to be sure that the story of my leaving is not filled with half-truths. I do believe that if my journey leads me back to this church, I will be received with open arms.

Also, a note about the church I attend. Far from being a cold, dry place, it represents some of the best of what "church" has to offer. The people are loving and caring, with a genuine desire to please God. They are just stuck in their traditions with no way out.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

Edited by - might-be-don on 12/26/2002 08:18:14 AM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/3/2003 4:34 AM (GMT -6)

The journey continues...

Well... yesterday was my first "no church" Sunday.

The wife and I went out to breakfast together, most likely the first time ever on a Sunday ( that we were not on vacation ) .

In the evening we listened to Greg's sermon, "Love Never Ends" . It helped me realize even more that for many years now I have just been keeping the church machine running, without any "particular" to express love. It seems that many are keeping the machine running with little regards to what the machine is DOING.

Pray for us.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 2/3/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6)

Don,

Somehow, someway, (in the way you write perhaps)I find myself entering in to your situation (obviously not knowing all the variables) and feeling a bit of what you feel. I just want to
tell you that you are supported in prayer and that I honor your
transparent search.

Bless you,
love,
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 2/3/2003 2:58 PM (GMT -6)

Brother Don,

VERY much aware of what you're saying.
We're there with you, man!

Starkman

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/3/2003 10:23 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
It seems that many are keeping the machine running with little regards to what the machine is DOING.

Pray for us.

Sounds like the Matrix.

There was a song written in the 70's by Lydell called "I Want To Know You" and in that particular song there is a part that has ministered to me often through my Christian journey: "...I don't want to just play a religious game, I don't want to live like a slave. But if I follow you, I'll be sure to know, the beauty of the love you gave. (chorus)I want to know you, I want to know you for myself..."

May you and your wife find the closeness and intimacy with the Lord that you desire. My prayers are with you.

BTW, way to go with homeschooling!

We are thinking and praying about doing that again with our children this next year.

God's blessings as you travel the road less traveled.
trosie

Edited by - trosie on 02/04/2003 03:33:28 AM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/4/2003 1:57 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks all for the prayers...

Just a reminder, I'm not anti-"folks gathering together and sitting in neat rows", I'm for something better. God has guided me throughout my 30 years as a "church-going" person and provided many memorable moments, but the tug on my heart for something more has been inescapable.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

fyodor
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179

Posted 2/4/2003 2:32 PM (GMT -6)

Reading through this thread for the first time.....

Amen might-be-don. Radical works best when it comes to Christ.

My wife and I opted out a few years back. Just decided that we'd had enough of the script. We started having "church" together. Still on Sundays. Just two Bibles, a CD and the two of us. We would worship together and read the scriptures and teach each other, as well as pray for everyone we ever met. It would go on for hours.

I just happen to have had a more severe than usual case of insomnia this last weekend and finally slept when church was starting. So we revisted our "home church" since we missed the service. Wow was that great! The intimacy of church with just your wife can be unbelievable.

Congratulations on your "leap of faith." I hope you will be encouraged by the radical love of Christ to live with a radical love of community.

†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard

following
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 24

Posted 2/5/2003 2:53 PM (GMT -6)

i liked how greg talked about the greek word for church, ecclessia as being "a body of people" not so much a building. i think too often the institution of church is seen as a building or a meeting place rather than a body of people coming together to worship god.

Edited by - following on 02/05/2003 7:55:03 PM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/6/2003 2:20 AM (GMT -6)

following says:

quote:
i think too often the institution of church is seen as a building or a meeting place rather than a body of people coming together to worship god.

What I have found is that many see the gathering of folks in a building that they call "church" to be the only valid way to worship God. That is, there is something special about a place dedicated to worship. Basically we see a continuation of old testament forms with a modern arena. I see Jesus as having set aside those forms ( which served only to lead us to Jesus ) and established relationship as the method of approaching God, not ritual. I see what is done on Sunday morning (Saturday for some) to be ritual and not what God desires for us. I believe God desires a walk in the garden.

I used "I" too many times in the above !

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

following
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 24

Posted 2/6/2003 8:21 AM (GMT -6)

Sometimes I thank God that I didn't grow up in the "church". I'm glad he brought me to him when i was in college. I think he knew my cynical attitude would have been my downfall. i agree with the the whole "ritual" thing. Thats actually why i decided to start going to church on saturdays instead of sundays. I play a little trick on my mind. By going on saturday i feel more like i am "choosing" to go to church. i know thats sounds weird, but welcome to my brain.

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 2/24/2003 11:39 AM (GMT -6)

Hi! All this talk of leaving a large Christian denomination for a much smaller, more intimate one reminds me of my very favorite Christian book. It's called "Blood of the Martyrs" by Naomi Michison. It's historical fiction and it opened my eyes to what the true Church is and how the church body should function within itself. I highly recommend that you read it. It's such a good book! I've read this book so many times that some of the pages are falling out of it!

Also, here's a cool quote that all of this discussion reminded me of:

"If a church wants a better pastor, they should pray for the one they already have."

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/25/2003 3:26 AM (GMT -6)

Tigress,

Thanks for the book suggestion.

rant on:

While I do believe in the power of prayer, it's the whole notion of the current day "pastor" that doesn't sit well with me, I'm not so sure that's a battle I'm ready to fight. I don't need a priest ( most "pastors" act as priests ) to interpret God's will for my life or filter the Word for me. A pastors whole job should be bringing new converts up speed, not making converts eternally dependent on them.

We have setup a hierarchical structure that places a whole list of men between me and God, and by this we deny the priesthood of believers and the power of the Spirit to teach and regulate behavior.

rant off:

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/25/2003 3:37 AM (GMT -6)

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