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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/6/2002 1:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi all-
In light of the upcoming ETS meeting this November, I’d like to gear up for a thread on the issue which the ETS will be taking up, that being the whole question of pluralism, Christianity’s relationship to other faiths, the destiny of the unevangelized, etc.. As a missionary I’m very interested in the whole issue. I don’t know about others, but I personally will get a lot more out of this Fall’s meeting if I am able to dialogue over the issues between now and then. What I have in mind is 1) defining the issues/questions involved, and 2) identifying what sort of answers have been given thus far.
To begin with I’d like to post here a list of books I’ve randomly pulled out of footnotes from recent reading. I can’t get to good material here in Beirut, but if you all will help me identify the top, say, five titles I think I can order them and have them brought over to me in a couple of months, giving me time to read 'em before November. If anybody has read any of these titles and can throw in a comment or two I’d appreciate it.
A Wideness in God’s Mercy, by Clark Pinnock.
No Other Name? A Critical Survey of Christian Attitudes Toward World Religions, by Paul F. Knitter.
Is Jesus the Only Savior?, by Ronald Nash.
Ireneaus on the Salvation of the Unevangelized, by Terrance Tiessen.
Eternity in Their Hearts, by Don Richardson.
No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized, by John Sanders.
The Myth of Christian Uniqueness: Towards a Pluralistic Theology of Religions, by Paul Knitter and John Hicks, eds.
Christian Uniqueness Reconsidered: The Myth of a Pluralistic Theology of Religion, by G. D’Costa, ed.
The Finality of Christ, by Lesslie Newbigin.
Through No Fault of Their Own?, by William V. Crockett and James G. Sigountos, eds.
The Other Side of the Good News, by Larry Dixon.
I’d like to narrow the list down to five titles. If you want to suggest a title that I’ve not included, go for it. I couldn’t find the info on Hicks’ works. Which would be the one to get of his?
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 06/06/2002 06:18:27 AM
Edited by - TGB on 06/06/2002 06:19:07 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 6/6/2002 2:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
Good deal on what you're doing, man.
The only one on your list that I'd any direct exposure to was Clark Pinnock's "A Wideness in God's Mercy" I thought it was pretty good myself. One more book you may probably want to add to your list is Millard Erickson's "How Shall They Be Saved: The Destiny of Those Who Do Not Hear of Jesus" Ten to one, it'll be mentioned SOMEWHERE in the whole thing.
With Hick, think about two:
"God Has Many Names"
and
"An Interpretation of Religion: Human Responses to the Transcendent"
I'd get both, but if it has to be one, get the second one...as it recognizes a more recent theological shift than GHMN.
Holla,
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 6/6/2002 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom,
Here are a few books I would definitely add to your list:
Hick, John. God has Many Names. Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1982
Okholm, Dennis & Phillips, Timothy. Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World.
Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1996.
Packer, J.I. Evangelism & the Sovereignty of God. Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1961.
Sanders, John. What About Those Who Have Never Heard: Three Views on the Destiny
of the Unevangelized. Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1995
Winter, Ralph & Hawthorne, Steven. Perspectives On the World Christian
Movement. third edition, United Kingdom: Paternoster Press, 1999.
 Well Tom I hope this aids in some way. I think you may find the “Four Views” book very interesting John Hick affirming the normative pluralist position, Clark Pinnock as the Inclusivist, Alister MicGrath defends Salvation in Christ (yet agnosticism regarding those who have never heard), and Douglas Geivett and W. Gary Phillips affirming Salvation in Christ alone. In Sanders book the nice addition is Gabriel Fackre’s essay on postmortem evangelistic viewpoint. By the way in the “Perspectives” book Greg Boyd even has a nice article with regards to “God At War” and how it applies to missions.
Warmly In Christ,
Tiggers
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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hand_carved
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111
| Posted 6/6/2002 5:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Whoa, this is going to be one crazy ETS meeting! I'm going to have to go! Where is it going to be?
I am not very widely read in this specific topic yet, but it is a question that stirred me to do extensive research on Hell. There are two discussions going on right now under "Theological Q&A" that I've posted some of my wacko research and contemplation on the subject of Hell: "Age of Accountability" (started by Seymour) and "Concerns of the Doctrine of Hell" (started by DiamondD).
I've not really gotten a lot of feedback on it yet, and I'd love to hear what people have to say about it. Hell is directly related to the question of the destiny of the unevangelized, and I've been working toward a sort of synthesis of the traditional view (of Hell), annihilationism, and what you might say is a pseudo-Universalism. It agrees with but adds to Boyd's view of Hell as an "unreality" presented in "Satan and the Problem of Evil." I hold to this view tentatively, but I (and others I've talked to about it) have found it overwhelmingly convincing in accordance with the scriptures as well as concepts in physics and what we know in science about death (as far as I have read on it anyway).
Anyway, anyone who would like to is welcome to join the conversation of either of the two threads, or else we could start a new one. I can't stand to only have my thoughts on the subject ringing in my head!
Blessings...
Adam
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/6/2002 3:10 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 6/7/2002 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tiggers, Is Okholm the guy at Wheaton?
Hey POTONWHEEL, 
Yes, Dennis L. Okholm is from Wheaton College!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 6/7/2002 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Wow, it's been since January that I posted here. A convergence of family, work, and ministry responsibilities has kept me away.
Tom, Eternity in Their Hearts is great - one of those mind-blowing books that shattered some of my preconceived notions about "pagan" cultures.
One of Don Richardson's passions as a missionary has been finding "redemptive analogies" that are in various cultures, perhaps placed there by God to bring people to himself. The "peace child" practice (in his book by that name) he found in Irian Jaya formed a bridge for these people to connect with Christ. The richest redemptive analogies (such as the Lamb of God, employed by John the Baptist) were found in Israel's culture.
In Eternity in Their Hearts he gives many examples of "pagan" or "primitive" people who were extraordinarily prepared for the proclamation of the gospel, by the myths and practices in their culture. Prominent among these were belief in a single supreme Creator God. In some cases, missionaries were able to identify the God of the Bible as the one the people had been seeking. One example, if I remember it right, was in Korea, where missionaries proclaimed Jesus, son of Hunamim (their name for the Creator God). This assignment wasn't indiscriminate: deities such as the Greek Zeus had foibles that were inconsistent with the Almighty God.
Monotheistic beliefs that we see in folk religions may be traceable to very ancient worship of the one true God or to special revelation from God. Christianity, then, completes rather than replaces this revelation. I'm rather sketchy on this - it's been about 10 yrs. since I read this book, so I'll share some links:
Richardson's account of monotheistic belief in the Incas is described in this site dedicated to finding redemptive analogies in present-day culture.
www.hollywoodjesus.com/inca.htm
Here are some summaries of other examples in the book.
net-burst.net/hot/weird.htm
net-burst.net/hot/miracle.htm
Many have used Richardson's ideas as a model for witness to those of different religions and cultures.
www.createinternational.com/indigitech/contextual.html
I'm sure some of the above is in the category of bringing coals to Newcastle, but I hope you find it useful for ministry (or for ETS). I found it to be exciting stuff.
Blessings,
Magneton
All great truths begin as blasphemies. George Bernard Shaw
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/9/2002 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom, there is McDermott's "Can Evangelicals Learn From Other Religions? Jesus Revelation and Religious Traditions"
www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=2274
Check out the link! I actually posted something up here a few months ago about McDermott's book and nobody but noooobody answered it. Here's the url.
www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=405
In the first page I mention Pinnock's book and talk about that somewhat. The second page is where I mention McDermott's book and ask my question. I am still looking for an answer peeeople!  
Brandon
"We must love one another or die."--W.H. Auden | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/9/2002 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks everybody for the help. Good stuff. I have a lot to read to prepare for November and I really wanna come ready to discuss stuff.
I'm moving this month into another house and things are really hectic, so I'll wait until July to get a thread started on the inclusivism/exclusivism/whatever debate. Wanna bounce that around a bit too before Toronto.
Peace to all,
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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diamondd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 42
| Posted 6/26/2002 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey TGB,
I don't know if i missed the boat here or something, but what is ETS? I am actually just finishing up No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized, by John Sanders. i've really enjoyed it, maybe cause i am partial to the inclusivist position. but i think it is thorough and well written. he covers all the major position on the issue for envagelicals in a fair and accurate manner. first sanders outline the biblical support for each view, and then gives some theological "considerations" in support. After doing so he list the leading defenders of each position throughout history and their view. Sanders then give his evaluation and a historical bibliography for the position. I like the book because he gives his best effort to outline each view as a proponent would, but also is open enough to add his own opinion in on the issue at the end, where he says that he is in most agreeance with the inclusivist position. well enough for now, i hope that helps a little.
have a good day,
David
Ps a debate on the destiny of the unevangelized sounds like fun. it's an interesting and very important issue.
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diamondd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 42
| Posted 6/26/2002 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey TGB,
I don't know if i missed the boat here or something, but what is ETS? I am actually just finishing up No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized, by John Sanders. i've really enjoyed it, maybe cause i am partial to the inclusivist position. but i think it is thorough and well written. he covers all the major position on the issue for envagelicals in a fair and accurate manner. first sanders outline the biblical support for each view, and then gives some theological "considerations" in support. After doing so he list the leading defenders of each position throughout history and their view. Sanders then give his evaluation and a historical bibliography for the position. I like the book because he gives his best effort to outline each view as a proponent would, but also is open enough to add his own opinion in on the issue at the end, where he says that he is in most agreeance with the inclusivist position. well enough for now, i hope that helps a little.
have a good day,
David
Ps a debate on the destiny of the unevangelized sounds like fun. it's an interesting and very important issue.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/26/2002 8:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yes, Dennis L. Okholm is from Wheaton College!
Warmly in Christ,Tiggers
Cool. Thought so.
He has been the teacher two or three times in our Sunday School. Great guy, and great teacher!!!!!! | | Back to Top | | |
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 6/27/2002 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | A while ago a stumbled onto this site which contains an annotated bibliography for "Current Issues in Soteriology":
http://www.bethel.edu/~rakrob/files/SALBIB2.html#Evangelicals%20&%20Catholics
click on the link for World Religions and the Unevangelized
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 6/27/2002 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey TGB,
I don't know if i missed the boat here or something, but what is ETS? I am actually just finishing up No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized, by John Sanders. i've really enjoyed it, maybe cause i am partial to the inclusivist position. but i think it is thorough and well written. he covers all the major position on the issue for envagelicals in a fair and accurate manner. first sanders outline the biblical support for each view, and then gives some theological "considerations" in support. After doing so he list the leading defenders of each position throughout history and their view. Sanders then give his evaluation and a historical bibliography for the position. I like the book because he gives his best effort to outline each view as a proponent would, but also is open enough to add his own opinion in on the issue at the end, where he says that he is in most agreeance with the inclusivist position. well enough for now, i hope that helps a little.
have a good day,
David
Hey David-
Yeah, I wanna get Sanders' book asap.
ETS is the Evangelical Theological Society, a group of Evangelical scholars who meet annually.
Blessings,
Tom
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