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Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 5/31/2003 10:24 AM (GMT -6)

1 John 5:2,3 "This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God AND carrying out his commands. THIS IS LOVE FOR GOD: TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS. And his commands are not burdensome..."

1 John 3:16 "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us."

1 John 3:18 "Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with action and in truth."

1 John 3:7 "Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous."

Thank you Lord for giving us this definition for LOVE. In a world, where even non Christians speak of love and in a world, where sex before marriage is acceptable if the couple is "in love", and in a world where many things called "love" are not love at all, we thank you for providing us with a clear definition of love. To LOVE is to obey your commands. It is not based on feeling nor mere sentiment. Rather it is something we do, we obey you. Love sacrificies. We sacrifice what our flesh desires. It desires revenge, it desires to gossip, it desires to feed itself through immorality. To obey is to submit ourselves to you with faith believing that your ways are higher and better than our own. To obey is to fight temptation and obey your commands which are good and free us from a life of slavery to sin. Thank you Lord for showing us how to love. How can it be that DEATH can be loving? Yet the death of your only Son Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice done in love. Is it possible that something that involves suffering can be loving? You have shown us that yes, suffering can be loving. Our ideas and misconceptions of love will be revealed in the light of your holy Word. You do not change like the shadows of the sun; you are the same today, yesterday, and forever! Thank you Lord! May we not forget your Word and the truth within. May we not speak with our own reasoning and wisdom but with the wisdom that comes from your Word that we might lead others to the truth! Amen!

Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 5/31/2003 10:35 AM (GMT -6)

Iconoclast, it appears to me that you misuse the term "legal view" to exalt your own doctrine and beliefs above those here who believe differently than you. You throw a wet blanket called "legalistic" over persons who believe things that you view as oppressive (such as homosexuality being sin). It is difficult to fellowship with a person when they have a heavy, wet blanket covering them but then I do not see you fellowshiping as much as I see you defending those things that others call unrighteous. (I mostly think of the homosexuality topic which I noticed you dominated). Your view of God seems to be that He is a grandfatherly man who sits on high and smiles on all things calling nothing sin so as not to offend or hurt any person. Forgive me for being upfront with you; perhaps you will benefit from an outside view. God bless you.

Edited by - Christian on 05/31/2003 3:38:23 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/31/2003 12:33 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
honorman

Icon: I truly wonder, on your view, why Paul bothered to even use the words "holiness" and "righteousness" when they are simply love in disguise. I would have to jog my memory, but it seems to me that holiness and righteousness are defined differently in a dictionary. In most of Paul's passages the word love isn't even mentioned. to live in holiness is to do and not do certain things that are holy. I think you are taking all the love verses in scripture and trumping them over anything you view as legalistic. Not unlike reformed believers and their "god does not change" verses.

quote:
Christian

Iconoclast, it appears to me that you misuse the term "legal view" to exalt your own doctrine and beliefs above those here who believe differently than you. You throw a wet blanket called "legalistic" over persons who believe things that you view as oppressive (such as homosexuality being sin). It is difficult to fellowship with a person when they have a heavy, wet blanket covering them but then I do not see you fellowshiping as much as I see you defending those things that others call unrighteous. (I mostly think of the homosexuality topic which I noticed you dominated). Your view of God seems to be that He is a grandfatherly man who sits on high and smiles on all things calling nothing sin so as not to offend or hurt any person. Forgive me for being upfront with you; perhaps you will benefit from an outside view. God bless you.

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/31/2003 2:30 PM (GMT -6)

Christian

Iconoclast, it appears to me that you misuse the term "legal view" to exalt your own doctrine and beliefs above those here who believe differently than you. You throw a wet blanket called "legalistic" over persons who believe things that you view as oppressive (such as homosexuality being sin).

Iconoclast

If this is the impact that I am having on you or others then I apologize for saying things wrong as this is not my intent. I would appreciate it if you would show me how I am misusing this term.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/31/2003 5:00 PM (GMT -6)

honorman

I truly do not believe you are giving the verses of the NT that concern these issues a fair shake.

Iconoclast

Okay. Let me know what verses are you thinking of and I will try to give them a fair shake.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Edited by - Iconoclast on 05/31/2003 10:02:09 PM

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/31/2003 5:21 PM (GMT -6)

honorman

Then you view love and grace as righteousness and holiness?

Iconoclast

All I was trying to say is that since love fulfills the law and the prophets one could look at that as being righteous. Isn't it fair to say that being righteous means fulfilling the law? And if we think of grace as God's forgiveness of us after we murdered Him isn't this a shining example of God's Holiness?

I was trying to agree with you and John about how we as Christians are called to a very high standard. The standard is SO HIGH that we are expected to love and forgive our enemies. We are expected to love and forgive sinners who harm us and others just like Jesus did. I can't think of a higher standard than that. So, I agree, we are called to be righteous and holy. What am I saying wrong?

Christian

Your view of God seems to be that He is a grandfatherly man who sits on high and smiles on all things calling nothing sin so as not to offend or hurt any person.

Iconoclast

Honorman, is the problem that when I use the word "love" you think I am saying what Christian apparently thinks I am saying?

My understanding of what God means by Love is defined by what Jesus did for us - He laid down His life for us. Love is an action. It is not a feeling. Love ascribes worth to another at a cost to oneself. And yes, love sometimes requires a "stop action" like an intervention with an alcoholic or refusing to fellowship with someone who is shacked up with their stepmother. Does that help?

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 5/31/2003 5:48 PM (GMT -6)

As I understand the biblical concept, God's moral attributes (holiness, righteousness, justice, compassion, etc.) are all modifications of love. That is, they all flow from His heart of love. If one does not love, one is not really righteous, holy, just, or compassionate, at all. The modifications of love are the fruit of the Spirit; that is, they flow from the Holy Spirit in one's life, and include all the moral attributes that God calls us to.

One who does not possess this agapao love may in fact have emotional responses which seem loving, righteous, holy, and even compassionate, but unless these things come from a pure, loving heart, they are "filthy rags," and "dead men's bones in a whitewashed tomb."

As in:

Matt 12:33 ¶ "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

35 "The good man brings out of {his} good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of {his} evil treasure what is evil.
36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Icon, this is essentially the same thing I was trying to point out in a couple of threads (I think L&KG&E and Definition of Love), when I demonstrated from John 8 that Jesus said the Pharisees were "of their father the devil," and that they desired to do the deeds of their father (the devil ) :

John 8:44 "You are of {your} father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own {nature,} for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear {them,} because you are not of God."

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 05/31/2003 11:45:04 PM

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