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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 4/28/2003 2:19 AM (GMT -6)

The issue of penance came up on the divorce and remarriage thread. As someone who grew up in a low church (“low” is not a pejorative here, it just means not-liturgical/not-Catholic or mainline Protestant) backgound, pennance is an unfamiliar concept.

I understand penance to be consequences for sin (other than the ones that come naturally) that are mediated by church leadership and/or that individual sinners take upon themselves. The most familiar example is from the movie The Mission where the Jesuit priest makes the soldier drag a large bundle of armor through the jungle. At first the soldier resents it, but eventually he comes to accept his burden.

I’m not familiar with contexts in which penance is still practiced, and I’m having a hard time visualizing what it might look like in my own context.

Thoughts?

Electra

Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky

Edited by - Electra on 04/28/2003 10:15:18 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/28/2003 5:02 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
In baptism men and women are declared children of God and endowed with a value beyond anything they could ever earn for themselves. In penance we say that no one is beyond the pale of God’s mercy.

ANYONE HAVE FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE?

Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 4/28/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
In baptism men and women are declared children of God and endowed with a value beyond anything they could ever earn for themselves. In penance we say that no one is beyond the pale of God’s mercy.

I don’t understand—it seems like God’s mercy cancels the need for penance. On the cross, doesn’t Jesus take the penalty for our sins onto himself?

Electra

Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 4/28/2003 6:14 PM (GMT -6)

I think repentance is the better concept. Both a turning from sin and a turning to God, a condemning oneself and a justifying of God, presenting ones filthy sins to a holy God that we may be renewed into the image of God that has always been the divine purpose for our lives.

The term, "penance" seems to have too much baggage connected with it, such as physically abusing oneself, saying 500 hail Marys, etc., etc.

Granted repentance can be a very psychologically painful ordeal, but in my experience the peace of God that follows repentance denies comparison.

Rev. 3:19 I reprove and discipline those whom I love. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. 20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me. 21 To the one who conquers I will give a place with me on my throne, just as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.”

Edited by - John Earp on 04/28/2003 11:15:22 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/28/2003 6:31 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
quote:
----------------------------------------------------
In baptism men and women are declared children of God and endowed with a value beyond anything they could ever earn for themselves. In penance we say that no one is beyond the pale of God’s mercy.
----------------------------------------------------

I don’t understand—it seems like God’s mercy cancels the need for penance. On the cross, doesn’t Jesus take the penalty for our sins onto himself?

Electra

Ok, Electra, I can't tell which of the two sentences I quoted you are
"struggling" (disagree?) with. Baptism is entry into the Church in which God gives salvation that is only in Christ Jesus. The sentence about penance is of a different gramatical sort. A webpage on my hard disk says this:

penance is the way to communion with God

referred to in Church Tradition as the renewal of baptism

reestablishment of that condition of life with God

www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Penance.html

Does that help? "The reestablishment of that condition of life with God..." And THAT provides us with witness that "no one is beyond the pale of God’s mercy." Were there no confession and penance God's mercy would be without one of its vivid signposts (I guess you would say.)

From the LINK above:

quote:
Not every sin requires the necessity of formal penance through sacramental ritual. This is obvious because Christians are never completely without sin. Certain grave sins or the prolonged separation from Holy Communion, however, do call for the act of sacramental penance. Also, Christians living in communion with Christ are expected to make use of this sacrament periodically in order to humble themselves consciously before God and to receive guidance in the Christian life from their pastor in the Church. It is the teaching of the Orthodox Church that sacramental penance is necessary for those receiving Holy Communion when they have committed grave sins or when they have been separated from the eucharistic meal for a long time.

The sacrament of penance exists in the Church to allow for the repentance and reconversion of Christians who have fallen away from the life of faith. There are three main elements to the act of formal penance. The first is a sincere sorrow for sins and for the breaking of communion with God. The second is an open and heartfelt confession of sins. At one time this confession was done publicly before all men in the midst of the Church, but in recent times it is usually done only in the presence of the pastor of the Church who stands in behalf of all. The third element of penance is the formal prayer of absolution through which the forgiveness of God through Christ is sacramentally bestowed upon the repentant sinner.

The fulfillment of penance consists in the reception of Holy Communion and the genuine reconciliation of the repentant sinner with God and all men according to the commandments of Christ. From this there obviously follows the necessity of a sincere attempt by the penitent to refrain from sin and to remain in faithful obedience to God and in uprightness of life before Him and all people.

The sacrament of penance, like all sacraments, is an element of the life of the Church which presupposes a firm belief and conviction that Christ himself is present in the Church through his Holy Spirit. A person without the experience of Christ in the Church will not understand the meaning of sacramental penance and the need for the open and public confession of sins. When the Church is experienced as the new life in Christ and as the genuine communion with God in his kingdom already present with men in sacrament and mystery, then not only will sacramental penance and the confession of sins be understood, but it will be cherished as the great mystery of God which it is: the unique possibility for reunion with God through the forgiveness of Christ who has come to save sinners who confess their sins and who sincerely desire to change their lives according to the ways which he himself has given.

From: www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Penance.html

I THINK THAT MY PROTESTANT HERITAGE IS IMPOVERISHED, LACKING IN BABY AND BATHWATER.

I WANT TO HEAR FROM THOSE WHO CAN SPEAK FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. (Not just long links!!!!!!!

)

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/29/2003 09:18:55 AM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/28/2003 6:59 PM (GMT -6)

Electra, here's a good and recent LINK:

www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/documents/Pastoral-Letters/2003-pascha.html

I think that you can sense thre relation.

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 4/28/2003 11:40 PM (GMT -6)

Electra-

I love watching “The Mission.” (Let's watch it in October!) And my favorite scene is when DeNiro carries the armor to the top of the mountain and collapses in front of the Indians whose relatives he had for years either murdered or traded for profit. THEY come over to DeNiro (expressionless, with their swords in hand), look at him (DeNiro isn’t sure whether they’ll slit his throat or throw him off the edge), and then cut his burden lose. THEY set him free. When they all gather around him to embrace him, DeNiro loses it. He weeps uncontrollably (how do you ACT that? Incredible), then come laughter and cries mixed together. A really great scene.

Anyway…

I have had no exposure to penance done the right way, assuming there’s a right way. When I have been confronted with it, I wasn’t impressed (Catholic Pilipinos actually crucifying themselves).

But I’d like to think that there’s some truth to the idea of penance.

The first time I watched “The Mission” I was bad-mouthing Catholics the whole time DeNiro carried his armor up the mountain. “He doesn’t have to do that for forgiveness! Stupid Catholics!” I kept saying. But the scene at the top of the mountain with the Indians was overwhelming. Rent it and watch it. You’ll see.

Here are my thoughts:

If penance is understood in any way as the grounds upon which God forgives me or upon which I am justified in believing myself to be forgiven, then I’m theologically opposed to it. If penance can be understood in other ways, then I’m open.

While we’re talking about penance, let’s consider the practice of “confession” too. Now there’s another thing we Protestants tossed out, but I think there are good reasons for practicing confession. But as with penance, I would be opposed to confessing to others as the grounds upon which God forgives me or upon which I am justified in believing myself to be forgiven.

James tells us to “confess our sins to one another so that you might be healed.” There is, I think, tremendous healing to be found in confessing sin to others, not as a requirement to get God’s forgiveness, but as: a means of disarming the power of ingrained sinful habits (sinful habits feed on us so long as we are silent about them, but “exposing” our struggles and failures through confession cuts into that power and sets us on a path to freedom). I think this is what James is talking about. Confession is the grounds upon which members of the community of faith can be healed.

I’m just wondering if penance also might be rightly used to aid believers in getting free from sin. It’s easily misunderstood and I’d be scared to try it. I wouldn’t want to see any one person in the place of deciding in private what the penance for another believer should be. There’s trouble there I think. There’s safety in the plurality of leaders.

So, if penance can be healing, and if it is not to be viewed as the grounds upon which we are forgiven or upon which we may justifiably believe ourselves to be forgiven, what might it’s purpose be?

Might penance be, like confession, a way to break the power of habitual sin, a way to “squeeze out” the infection, a way to drive the dagger into the heart of our sinful habits? John says, “He who suffers in his body is finished with sin.” Nobody willingly suffers for something they don’t believe in and love. Willingly suffering in my body (penance) may (like public confession) bring us to a crossroads with respect to our struggles with sinful habit. It weakens our “toleration” for sin. It involves the whole person, BODY included, in repentance and the struggle to live free from sin.

DeNiro didn’t climb the mountain to “get” God’s forgiveness, he climbed the mountain to “stake his claim” (so to speak). Penance might be understood as erecting a memorial of sorts that always stands in our memory to remind us of how awful sin is, to warn us, and to encourage us to keep celebrating our freedom. And it can have awesome healing powers (like it did with DeNiro) when at the end of penance for public offenses we meet the offended party(ies) who are waiting to cut us loose.
(Problem is: Communion is already the memorial that reminds us of the awfulness of sin and of our freedom from it. Are we theologically justified in erecting other memorials in addition?)

OK, DeNiro was forgiven without penance. He could have converted, done a few weeks of discipleship, and then boarded a boat headed for Spain without ever encountering those Indians and having that experience. But wow, what an awesome freedom and joy was his for meeting them.

Maybe this is it: Penance doesn’t get us forgiveness from God or others (provided they’re believers and have already forgiven us), but it:

I wouldn’t know HOW to administrate such a thing and I’d be VERY suspicious of those who tried it! But I like what it did for DeNiro on the mountain top.

Tom

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 4/29/2003 2:06 AM (GMT -6)

Oh yeah, I wanna add a third point to my closing (a) and (b) above: Penance must...

c) always be entered into voluntarily. (Church leaders cannot discipline somebody because they refuse to engage in penance.)Gotta run. I'm scheduled to climb up and down our house stairs 30 times on my knees.

Tom

(my penance face)

Edited by - TGB on 04/29/2003 07:09:39 AM

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/29/2003 2:26 AM (GMT -6)

John Earl hits another homerun:

quote:

I think repentance is the better concept. Both a turning from sin and a turning to God, a condemning oneself and a justifying of God, presenting ones filthy sins to a holy God that we may be renewed into the image of God that has always been the divine purpose for our lives.

Penance to me is repentance AND restitution. Did you cheat on a test as a youth and now the Holy Spirit brings this up? Write a letter to your teacher and ask forgiveness (as my wife did).
Did you steal a beer glass from a bar in your earlier days and now it's staring at you from the shelf? Take it back to the bar you stole it from (as I did). Unfortunately, you almost never hear about restitution in churchs. If the Holy Spirit brings it up, go for it. If it's within your power, just do it.

See Luke 19 for what Zacchaeus did.

quote:

Exodus 22:1. It says this: “If a man shall steal an ox or a sheep or kill it or sell it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep.” So Zacchaeus, you see, was pretty much operating on Exodus 22:1 principles, that restoration was required. Forgiveness did not remove the need for restitution.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/29/2003 4:22 AM (GMT -6)

GREAT POSTS, Laika, Tom, Electra, and John Earl!!!

I played with the "media" on a paragraph that I quoted above. You all have HIT ON some of the things in it, and added more insights too. Here's a 'replay':

quote:
There are three main elements to the act of formal penance. The first is a sincere sorrow for sins and for the breaking of communion with God. The second is an open and heartfelt confession of sins. At one time this confession was done publicly before all men in the midst of the Church, but in recent times it is usually done only in the presence of the pastor of the Church who stands in behalf of all. The third element of penance is the formal prayer of absolution through which the forgiveness of God through Christ is sacramentally bestowed upon the repentant sinner.

Compared to Tom's and others posts, though, what I clipped above is LACKING. Isn't it. The element of relationship to other men and women, and the community needs more emphasis. In the quote above, though, it IS there -- kind'a quietly. Let me give it emphasis; it says: "At one time this confession was done publicly before all men in the midst of the Church, but in recent times it is usually done only in the presence of the pastor of the Church who stands in behalf of all." I think this is saying, and emphasizing, that confession and forgiveness is 'pipelined' or 'channeled' THROUGH the Body of Christ by the Spirit. Gotta plug in! To my Protestant ears what did Matthew 16:19 sound like everytime I heard it or read it? ("And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.") OK, it sounded like the King James Version. But the idea really seemed strange. But there it is. True? I highly think so. And what our Orthodox brethren are saying about it seems very worth considering.

So, BESIDES (in itself worth emphasizing) "a sincere attempt by the penitent to refrain from sin and to remain in faithful obedience to God and in uprightness of life before Him and all people" is also emphasized "to remain in faithful obedience to God and in uprightness of life before Him and all people." Holiness before God AND man. (This recalls Luke 2:52: "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.")

And to that the quote also adds: The sacrament of penance...an element of the life of the Church...presupposes...that Christ himself is present in the Church through his Holy Spirit.

"What you do to the least of these..." and "Lord when did we see you..." pop to mind--don't they? (You all have done a GREAT job in literally "fleshing" this out! "Incarnating" (?) it.)

The quote goes on to develope this a bit more:

quote:
When the Church is experienced as the new life in Christ and as the genuine communion with God in his kingdom already present with men in sacrament and mystery, then not only will sacramental penance and the confession of sins be understood, but it will be cherished as the great mystery of God which it is: the unique possibility for reunion with God through the forgiveness of Christ who has come to save sinners who confess their sins and who sincerely desire to change their lives according to the ways which he himself has given.

This restored relationship WITH CHRIST by His Spirit then truely becomes our experience of the Church in its true nature. Not an organization. Not a cultural institution. Not a routine. Not a mutual support contract. We experience what Mother Theresa did: Christ in our hands. "The great mystery of God" Reunion with God through the forgiveness, with sincere desire to change results in uprightness of life before Him and all people. By the Spirit we become knitted into the Body of Christ.

I think that we might do well if sometimes we thought of "election" as a process: becoming part of the elected/chosen/anointed/messiah-ed one.

Here is another LINK for any who want to follow it. It is by Frederica
Mathewes-Green and describes an annual service of mutual forgiveness-asking she participates in at the Orthodox Church her husband is Priest at. (She writes for Christianity Today, does work for Veggie Tales, and "appears" on NPR.)

Forgiveness Vespers
www.frederica.com/orthodox/ofeforg_mrb.html
(From the book, Facing East: A Pilgrim's Journey into the Mysteries of Orthodoxy, Part II: Lent, Chapter 5 Cheesefare Sunday, Forgiveness Vespers)

I see another topic by her on Repentance too. Here it is:

Whatever Happened to Repentance?
We've come to think our faith is about comfort. It's not.
www.frederica.com/orthodox/repentance.html
(first appeared on Beliefnet.com, Sept 16, 2001.)

.

Electra, what do the Lutherans do?

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/29/2003 10:55:07 AM

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/29/2003 5:18 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Compared to Tom's and others posts, though, what I clipped above is LACKING. Isn't it. The element of relationship to other men and women, and the community needs more emphasis. In the quote above, though, it IS there -- kind'a quietly. Let me give it emphasis; it says: "At one time this confession was done publicly before all men in the midst of the Church, but in recent times it is usually done only in the presence of the pastor of the Church who stands in behalf of all." I think this is saying, and emphasizing, that confession and forgiveness is 'pipelined' or 'channeled' THROUGH the Body of Christ by the Spirit. Gotta plug in! To my Protestant ears what did Matthew 16:19 sound like everytime I heard it or read it? ("And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.") OK, it sounded like the King James Version. But the idea really seemed strange. But there it is. True? I highly think so. And what our Orthodox brethren are saying about it seems very worth considering.

PoW, isn't there something in the Levitical Law against mixing fonts?

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 4/29/2003 5:42 AM (GMT -6)

I'm inclined to agree with you, Laika! But I can't resist this:

quote:
PoW, isn't there something in the Levitical Law against mixing fonts?

"Come thou FONT of every blessing..."

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/1/2003 6:20 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Whatever Happened to Repentance?
We've come to think our faith is about comfort. It's not.
http://www.frederica.com/orthodox/repentance.html
(first appeared on Beliefnet.com, Sept 16, 2001.)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/3/2003 10:36 AM (GMT -6)

I' M S O R R Y

for not attending to this thread.

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