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Vexen
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 55
| Posted 1/21/2002 9:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | This thread is a response to This Message. Click to read it in a new window. This response is to the post by Greg Boyd, I have started a new thread as the content certainly warrants it!
Doc:
"All scholars (liberal and conservative) agree that I Corinthians was written in the early to mid 50’s. This is about 20 years after Christ’s death."
Yes, this would make sense after the few years he sent in that area, especially Corinth, making an exceptional number of converts and followers, both Jews and non Jews in many areas (with notable exceptions of Athens).
Doc:
"Now note what Paul says about the resurrection in I Cor. 15
...
Note, Paul’s reminding these folks of something that a) they were taught some years before and b) which he himself had received."
On a side note, what scriptures (verse) is Paul referring to in 15:3? The only cross ref I can find is Hosea 6:2?
"1Cor. 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."
Which 12? Hadn't Judas killed himself? I don't think the new member had been chosen until later?
Yes, the resurrection stories were well known in the Roman Empire and across Europe. Most Roman religions contained strikingly similar resurrection and god-man stories. Such as Mithras (Mithraism was the most popular religion in the Roman Empire before Christianity), but most notably that of Osiris-Dionysis.
Similarities include:
[*]God was his father after sexual intercourse with a virgin woman.
[*]He was born in a cave or cowshed
[*]He was prophesized by a star in the heavens
[*]He converted water to wine, could not perform miracles in his home town, baptized people in water, rode into a city on a donkey whilst the inhabitants waved palm leaves
[*]He had 12 disciples
[*]He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about Mar 21.
[*]His death was a sacrifice for the world, he was hung on a tree or stake, descended into hell.
[*]3 female followers visited his cave. He later ascended into heaven.
[*]He was called the "son of god", and "god made flesh"
(Bullet points copied from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm)
Egyption in origin, the Osiris-Dionysis cult was very successful in the Roman Empire, and is dated before 2000 BCE, it is an example of one of the oldest godman religions.
My question to how Paul could have claimed Jesus appeared to "the 12" is that he was basing his stories on Osiris, that of course there were 12.
Doc:
"In other words, the resurrection tradition was already well established as sacred tradition at this time and its only 20 years after the event. By historical standards, this is extremely close."
Yes, I agree that this tradition was well established, and that Paul's writings are some of the earliest and most compelling evidence for his beliefs in Jesus.
Doc:
"Vexen, do you think Paul was making all this up? Cephas (the original name for Peter again showing the antiquity of this tradition)"
Yes, the tradition was old and familiar, I do not believe (and it would be foolish to say!) that he made it up.
I snipped the other references to the amount of believers... I do not doubt that there were many hundreds of believers by that time.
Doc:
"You can live life with the faith (faith = what you are willing to ACT on) that Jesus did not rise from the dead, or faith that he DID rise from the dead. It's faith because you, whatever you decide, it will go beyond the evidence. And its faith because, whatever you decide, the stakes may be high (if Christians are right, eternity hangs in the balance). So the question is this, which "faith" has the best evidence for it?"
Yes, I agree that whichever I choose to believe (as faith) goes beyond the evidence. I have started life simply not knowing that people believed a man could rise from the dead, the Son of God, no less, and I am currently (for the past 5 years or so) looking in to the matter with seriousness.
If I have been convinced wrongly by those pesky atheists that I do not need Jesus, then do you think it has potential to result in an eternal problem for me? If God exists, and I see him when I die and see that he is good, I will willingly accept him. Until that time or until my conversion, I am unsure.
I have heard many compelling arguments from Muslims (I have debated with multiple religions) too, that unless I accept Muhammed (pbuh) as God' final and most true prophet, then I will not be allowed to enter Heaven. I simply don't want to commit to something when there are so many options, whilst I am unsure!
Doc: "Look forward to your response."
Doc, I respect your opinions and enjoy your intellect and grace, bear with me if sometimes my arguing style goes over board! I do not believe that Christ did not exist, I expect that his life story has been intermingled with older pagan myths, but that he did exist, but it is very hard for us to see his true life or message. I love debating, already on the Free Will discussion with Empiress you have came up with answers that I have not thought of before!
Respectfully, Vexen.
--
Vexen
http://www.vexen.co.uk
Edited by - Vexen on 01/21/2002 3:02:34 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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