 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > The laity's approach to the Trinity | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/6/2002 2:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | I am having tremendous fun with what St. Basil is saying, seriously. However, I am not completely finished with my response, and just wanted to drop this post, to let you know I am still with you buddy, Thanks.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/10/2002 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | My dear friend PotOnWheel,
1Cr 8:6But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Jhn 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jhn 10:30I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 14:20At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
TIM: To me there is only one God; of whom or from who are All Things, ‘The Father’; in, for, and to Him I exist. There is only one Lord Jesus; by whom or through who are All Things, ‘The Anointed One’; by and through Him I exist and live. Although, no man has ever seen the Father, the only begotten Son of God, who is himself God; in the bosom of the Father’s heart, has declared, told of, and explained Him; having made known my Father’s love toward me. If my Father is God, I will love the Son of God also; he proceeded forth or from the Father, not of his own accord nor initiative, neither did he come to man of or by himself; the Father sent him. That I might know the Son and Father are one; that the Son is in the Father and I am in the Son; by this means, the Father’s love is in me, through the Son. God is love.
Scripture simply states the Son is ‘of’ God, and the Holy Ghost is ‘of’ God; ‘of’ God, who is a Spirit, and if this is not the Holy Ghost; then what Spirit is the Father? When Scripture says the Son is ‘of’ God and the Spirit is ‘of’ God, then logically, God is the Father, and the Son and Holy Ghost are ‘of’ Him, and through whom are All Things, the Son?
I had worked through St. Basil carefully up until this point, then I stopped when he said, "Well then did the apostle add "Of him and through him and to him are all things." 39 For of Him, to all things that are, comes the cause of their being, according to the will of God the Father. Through Him, all things have their continuance40 and constitution, 41 for He created all things, and metes out to each severally what is necessary for its health and preservation. Wherefore to Him all things are turned, looking with irresistible longing and unspeakable affection to "the arthur"42 and maintainer" of" their "life," as it is written "The eyes of all wait upon thee,"43 and again, "These wait all upon thee,"44 and "Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."
St. Basil in my mind is trying to turn the equation around to One in All, rather than three unlike persons with one being, so am I.
Furthermore, I truly do not find the Holy Ghost as spooky to comprehend from Scripture, as I do the Son. However, the following passage is primarily where I get the idea, "All Things are ‘by’ the Spirit", more on this next or later.
Zec 4:4-7So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What [are] these, my lord? Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who [art] thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel [thou shalt become] a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone [thereof with] shoutings, [crying], Grace, grace unto it.
I would also like to say more about what I have called, "The Wisdom of Understanding Knowledge", later…to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding (Col 1:9).
In God’s Love,
Tim
Edited by - Tim on 05/12/2002 06:49:12 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/12/2002 2:46 AM (GMT -6) | | To whom it may concern,
Zec 4:6…Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Psa 34:18The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psa 51:17The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Pro 29:23A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Isa 57:15For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isa 66:1-4Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest? For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.
Jam 4:6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1Pe 5:5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Mat 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister…
TIM: To me there is only one God; of whom or from who are All Things, ‘The Father’; in, for, and to Him I exist. There is only one Lord Jesus; by whom or through who are All Things, ‘The Anointed One’; by and through Him I exist and live. Although, no man has ever seen the Father, the only begotten Son of God, who is himself God; in the bosom of the Father’s heart, has declared, told of, and explained Him; having made known my Father’s love toward me. If my Father is God, I will love the Son of God also. [The Son] proceeded forth or from [his] Father, not of his own accord nor initiative, neither did he come to man, [nor become a man] of or by himself; the Father sent him. That I might know the Son and Father are one; that the Son is in the Father and I am in the Son; by this means, [my] Father’s love is in me, through [my brother; His] Son. God is love.
Num 27:16Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
Isa 11:2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 30:1Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
1Cr 2:4And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
2Cr 10:4(For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
1Pe 1:12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Psa 20:6Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.
Psa 33:16There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength.
Psa 44:3For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.
In God’s Love,
Tim
P.S. I will be commenting on these Scriptures, as they pertain to my understanding of the Holy Ghost or Spirit of God; I simply wanted to present them first.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/14/2002 1:55 AM (GMT -6) | | To all of God’s Saint’s,
My first comment on the above Scriptures, as they pertain to the Spirit of God; ‘Father of the spirits of all flesh’.
Psa 20:6Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.
Psa 33:16There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength.
Psa 34:18The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psa 44:3For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.
TIM: The uncaused existing One, the Father of the spirits of all flesh; delivers, preserves, defends, avenges, and victoriously gives, by offering to all humankind; Salvation. My Father will hear me, answer from his holy heaven with saving strength, and rescue me with the mighty victories of his right hand. There is no deliverance, in the abundance of power, of a mans great strength; vain false hope is victory, or safety in my own strength, it cannot save me. Victory is near to the heart, which is broken; God rescues the bruised soul, and saves the crushed in spirit. My own arm cannot obtain through conquering conquest, the victory, nor gain possession by my own strength, the Salvation of my soul. By the right hand of my Father, His mighty presence; His arm of power succeeds; His only begotten Son, the light of my Father’s face; the light of my countenance. Accepted by His favor, my Father’s delight smiles upon me, love, through His Son, my brother, forever, Amen.
Psa 51:17The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
In God’s Love,
Tim
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/16/2002 2:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Pro 29:23A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
TIM: To see myself as rising up, or grown up, and exalted in triumph over the nature of fallen humankind, by my own act of choice, without acknowledging, the Father of the spirits of all flesh; is pride. True dominion of choice, is to first bow low in height, the estimation of my own intellect, and recognize my low station in honor of the Father of lights (Jam 1:17). That I may walk before God in the light of the living, for He alone can deliver my soul from death, and keep my feet from failing (Psa 56:13).
Isa 57:15For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Jam 4:6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1Pe 5:5…be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Zec 4:6…by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 5/19/2002 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Col 1:9…to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 2:2,3That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
TIM: I believe I will just leave this conversation right here, unless someone has some interest in continuing it, let me know?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/6/2002 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm going to try and scan a very, very balanced clip from a classic book by a Russian Orthodox theologian of the last generation, Vladimir Lossky, called "In the Image and Likeness of God."
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/06/2002 7:45:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/6/2002 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Vladimir Lossky’s “In the Image and Likeness of God” (Chapter 4: The Procession of the Holy Spirit , Section 4), pp. 80-83
If personal diversity in God presents itself as a primordial fact, not to be deduced from any other principle or based on any other idea, that does not mean that the essential identity of the Three is ontologically posterior to their hypostatic diversity. Orthodox triadology is not a counter-blast to Filioquism; it does not run to the other extreme. As we already have said, relations of origin signify the personal diversity of the Three, but they indicate no less their essential identity. In that the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished from the Father, we venerate three Persons; in that they are one with Him, we confess their consubstantiality16 Thus the monarchy of the Father maintains the perfect equilibrium between the nature and the persons, without coming down too heavily on either side.17 There is neither an impersonal substance nor non-consubstantial persons. The one nature and the three hypostases are presented simultaneously to our understanding, with neither prior to the other. The origin of the hypostases is not impersonal, since it is referred to the person of the Father; but it is unthinkable apart from their common possession of the same essence, the "divinity in division undivided”18 Otherwise we should have Three Divine Individuals, Three Gods bound together by an abstract idea of Godhead. On the other hand, since consubstantiality is the non-hypostatic identity of the Three, in that they have (or rather are) a common essence, the unity of the three hypostases is inconceivable apart from the monarchy of the Father, who is the principle of the common possession of the same one essence. Otherwise we should be concerned witha simple essence, differentiated by relationships. 19
It may be asked whether, in seeking to avoid the semi-Sabellianism of the Latins, their Greek adversaries did not fall into suhordinationism because of their emphasis on the monarchy of the Father. This might perhaps seem all the more likely to happen, because in Greek patristic literature
16 "For us there is one God, for the Godhead is one, and the Three in whom we believe proceed from and are referred to the One... Thus when we look at the Godhead, the First Cause, and the Monarchy, the One appears to us; but when we look at the Persons in whom the Godhead is, who timelessly and with equal glory come forth from the First Cause, we adore the Three." St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Or. 31, 14; P.G. 36, cols. 148D-149A.
17 ”St. Photius compares the Trinity to a pair of scales, in which the needle represents the Father, and the two platforms represent the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amphilochia qu. 181; P.G. 101, col. 896.
18 “St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Or. 31, 14; P.G. 36, col. l48D.
19 “The one nature in the Three is God; but the union (^vcooiq) is the Father, from whom the others proceed and to whom they refer, not so as to be confounded but rather to have all in common with Him, without distinction of time, will, or power." St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Or. 42; P.G. 36, col. 476B.
one often finds the idea of causality applied to the person of the Father. The Father is called the cause (cciTicc) of the hypostases of the Son and the Holy Spirit, or even the "God-head-source" (TTT^yaioc OsoTriq). Sometimes He is designated simply as "God," with the definite article 6 OEOC;, or even as auroO'soc;.
It is worthwhile to recall here what we have said before about the negative approach characteristic of Orthodox thought—an approach which radically changes the value of philosophical terms applied to God. Not only the image of "cause," but also such terms as "production," "procession," and "origin" ought to be seen as inadequate expressions of a reality which is foreign to all becoming, to all process, to all beginning. Just as relations of origin mean something different from relations of opposition, so causality is nothing but a somewhat defective image, which tries to express the personal unity which determines the origins of the Son and the Holy Spirit. This unique cause is not prior to his effects, for in the Trinity there is no priority and posteriority. He is not superior to his effects, for the perfect cause cannot produce inferior effects. He is thus the cause of their equality with himself.20 The causality ascribed to the person of the Father, who eternally begets the Son and eternally causes the Holy Spirit to proceed, expresses the same idea as the monarchy of the Father: that the Father is the personal principle of unity of the Three, the source of their common possession of the same content, of the same essence.
The expressions "Godhead-source" and "source of the Godhead" do not mean that the divine essence is subject to the person of the Father, but only that the person of the Father is the basis of common possession of the same essence, because the person of the Father, not being the sole person of the Godhead, is not to be identified with the essence. In a certain sense it can be said the Father is this possession of
20 "For He would be the origin (drpy^) of petty and unworthy things, or rather the term 'origin* would be used in a petty and unworthy sense, if He were not the origin of the Godhead (Tf)<; ©£6Tr(TO(; APX^) and of the goodness contemplated in the Son and in the Spirit: in the former as Son and Word, in the latter as Spirit which proceeds without separation." St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Or. 2, 38; P.G. 35, col. 445.
the divine essence in common with the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that he would not be a divine Person if he were only a monad: he would then be identified with the divine Essence. Here it may be useful to recall that St. Cyril of Alexandria regarded the name "Father" as superior to the name "God," because the name "God" is given to God in respect of his relations with beings of a different nature.21
If the Father is sometimes called simply God—6 e£6<; or even ocuTo5£5(;—nevertheless we cannot find in orthodox writers expressions which treat consubstantiality as participation by the Son and the Holy Spirit in the essence of the Father.22 Each Person is God by nature, not by participation in the nature of another.
The Father is the cause of the other hypostases in that He is not His essence, i.e. in that He does not have His essence for Himself alone. What the image of causality wishes to express is the idea that the Father, being not merely an essence but a person, is by that very fact the cause of the other consubstantial Persons, who have the same essence as He has.
21 Thesaurus, assert. 5; P.G. 75, cols. 65, 68.
22 Such a concept may be found in the works of Ongen, e.g. Commentary on St. John 2, 2; P.G. 14, col. 109. On this subject the excellent work of Th. Lieske, Theologie der Logosmystik bet Off gen (Munster, 1938), may be usefully consulted.
(The scanning operator apologizes that his device can’t read Greek. But aren’t all those substitutions creative on its part?)
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/06/2002 2:47:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/6/2002 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | | That is as balanced as I can imagine writing on such mystery as being. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/6/2002 5:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, that which underlies all outward manifestations; material of which all things made; substance of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; mental entity of my existance; loves.
| | Back to Top | | |
| 85 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:02 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|