Open Theism Discussion Board
  HomeLog InRegisterSearch the ForumHelp
   
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)
 
Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Leila
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
 
   Posted 5/5/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In response to some questions I had about hell and salvation on my “Am I a Christian?” post, PotOnWheel recommended I read Alexandre Kalomiros’ “River of Fire”:

http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm.

It was quite interesting and I have several comments and questions that I would like to make in this new post.

Kalomiros really hit at what has been a fundamental problem for me: how do you love and worship a God whom you believe is a harsh judge and punisher? For the first few years of learning about Christianity, I had been taught if you don’t accept Christ as Savior, then God will send you to a hell of eternal torment and punishment. This has always made me fear God and, as hard as it is to admit, not feel very loving toward Him. I also struggled with reconciling this notion of hell and judgment with Bible verses equating God and love, as well as Jesus’ teachings of love and compassion. I’ve always felt like I was “missing” something.

Kalomiros stated the problem well: “Who can love a torturer? Even those who try hard to save themselves from the wrath of God cannot really love Him. They love only themselves, trying to escape God’s vengeance and to achieve eternal bliss by managing to please this fearsome and extremely dangerous Creator.”

Kalomiros’ description of hell as a state of self-condemnation, not as a punishment from God, really helps to put hell in a better perspective, making it an easier concept to accept.

However, I do have a few questions about this viewpoint that I hope someone (PotOnWheel?) can help me with:

(1) Kalomiros states: “Paradise or hell depends on how we will accept God’s love…it is not an external act but an interior attitude coming from the bottom of our heart…”

a. What does Eastern theology say was the whole purpose of Jesus’ death on the cross?
b. Many people may have hearts fully of love for God; yet not believe in Jesus as Savior. This article, to me, implies that they will rejoice in seeing God’s light -- that they, too, will be in heaven. Am I missing something here?

(2) Kalomiros states that God’s judgment is “nothing else than our coming into contact with truth and light”?

a. What about the Old Testament standard of salvation?
b. Wasn’t that a legalistic system of animal sacrifices that God imposed upon man?
c. What of God’s preferential treatment of the people of Israel?

(3) Kalomiros states that God is “forgiving all transgressions and disobediences…never requites evil for evil…never punishes and never takes vengeance.”

a. So how would he interpret Jesus’ parable on forgiveness (Matthew 18:21-35) where Jesus states that God will not forgive us unless we forgive our brothers from the heart. This is not the unconditional forgiveness that Kalomiros suggests.

b. Or how would Kalomiros explain Jesus’ warning against the hypocritical religious leaders whom he says “will be punished most severely” (Mark 12:40)?

I have a few other questions, but these will do for now. Thanks




Edited by - Leila on 05/05/2003 2:48:01 PM
Back to Top
 

ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member


Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
 
   Posted 5/5/2003 6:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As far as God never punishing and never taking vengeance, has this guy read the OT?
Also, in Romans 12:
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

This implies that there will be some justice - that evil will be punished. However, what this exactly means is beyond me.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell
Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 5/5/2003 7:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see in what he quoted this:

    "God did not create death," continues Saint Basil, "but we brought it upon ourselves." "Not at all, however, did He hinder the dissolution… so that He would not make the infirmity immortal in us."l6 As Saint Irenaeus puts it: "Separation from God is death, separation from light is darkness… and it is not the light which brings upon them the punishment of blindness."l7

    "Death," says Saint Maximus the Confessor, "is principally the separation from God, from which followed necessarily the death of the body. Life is principally He who said, ‘I am the Life.’"18


And I'd like to offer it as a start on your question about:
quote:
Leila 3-b. Or how would Kalomiros explain Jesus’ warning against the hypocritical religious leaders whom he says “will be punished most severely” (Mark 12:40)?


On the one hand, I don't see them "getting off." On the other hand, I don't see God condemning them out of vindictiveness either. Were God vindictive, we all would perish. God is merciful and loves mankind. (oft-spoken phrase in Byzantine liturgies) Where the "hypocritical religious leaders" bring death upon themselves, the "vengence" is accomplished. Where the thief repents, he finds shelter in Christ's wings.

What's more, the quotes also show something of the reason for death to "reign" now. Without it sin would increase. (Think of Jacob Marli versus Ebanezer Scrooge in Dickens "A Christmas Carol", and the respective length of their chains.) The Reformed "Heidelberg Catachism" points this out too. St. Basil says: that He would not make the infirmity (sin) immortal in us."

The Saint Maximus the Confessor quote, from Kalomiros article, shows the relationship between life and death: "Death is principally the separation from God, from which followed necessarily the death of the body. Life is principally He who said, ‘I am the Life.’"18

Lets see what we can make of that while looking at your other questions.

quote:
Leila 3-a. So how would he interpret Jesus’ parable on forgiveness (Matthew 18:21-35) where Jesus states that God will not forgive us unless we forgive our brothers from the heart. This is not the unconditional forgiveness that Kalomiros suggests.


Unforgiveness towards others is a form of "separation from God" which...death... and if it continues, it becomes enrooted... and harder to root out.

What shall we think? Christ is the judge. When he says (and he does) "...neither shall I forgive you." I belive Him. (I'd better.) But I'm simply "NOT privi" to what is meant when the Creator God says that. Insofar

quote:
Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."


I believe it. But I don't try and put God in human shoes.

quote:
Matthew 18:35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


God forgiving us our sins is His sending his son. It is not an actionless idea. Nor did Christ act alone or will to save alone. Its Trinitarian. If we don't forgive we aren't forgiven. On another thread I refered to Christ as the "aweful Judge." That's true!

quote:
Mark 11:25 "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."


quote:
(3) Kalomiros states that God is “forgiving all transgressions and disobediences…never requites evil for evil…never punishes and never takes vengeance.”


C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce dramatizes people who "get to heaven" and decide to turn around and go back. When someone said "Hell is a prison locked from the inside." that seems insightful.

I've been wondering what is meant, what is communicated in the verse "Vengence is mine." I think that one thing is that God OWNS the status required for vengence; or WE don't. Paul writes: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19)

For the moment I'm keeping two different words in my head, to help me differentiate: vengence and vindictiveness.

This passage from the Prophet seems to say a lot!

quote:
Isaiah 63
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.



There is certainly a "day of vengeance." A terrible day. And in one line both "the day of vengeance" and "the year of my redeemed...come" are mentioned. And just as "none to help...none to uphold" also is presented "mine own arm brought salvation unto me." If I'm not mistaken, that ARM is Christ. There IS "That" Day.


quote:
(2) Kalomiros states that God’s judgment is “nothing else than our coming into contact with truth and light”?

a. What about the Old Testament standard of salvation?
b. Wasn’t that a legalistic system of animal sacrifices that God imposed upon man?
c. What of God’s preferential treatment of the people of Israel?


re:2-a. The OT standard for salvation is ONLY Christ Jesus. The whole thing leads up to Him.

re:2-b. God let the "practices" be used as illustrations while he formed in a called-out-previously-not-a-people what he needed to shape so that the whole world could be blessed.

re:2-c. This sounds like a discussion of "Election" with Calvinism. The "ELECT" is always an office. Good Calvinist preachers know this and say it too. (Not the ones you've heard.) Israel is an "elect" (chosen) people. But that is their "office." It does not make them "children of Abraham." That's a think of the heart -- and God can make anyone to be that!


quote:
(1) Kalomiros states: “Paradise or hell depends on how we will accept God’s love…it is not an external act but an interior attitude coming from the bottom of our heart…”

a. What does Eastern theology say was the whole purpose of Jesus’ death on the cross?
b. Many people may have hearts fully of love for God; yet not believe in Jesus as Savior. This article, to me, implies that they will rejoice in seeing God’s light -- that they, too, will be in heaven. Am I missing something here?



Q 1= Kalomiros states: “Paradise or hell depends on how we will accept God’s love…it is not an external act but an interior attitude coming from the bottom of our heart…”

    As Saint Irenaeus puts it: "Separation from God is death, separation from light is darkness… and it is not the light which brings upon them the punishment of blindness."l7


re:1-a. The Cross is "HUGE."

re:1-b. YOU SAY, AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU: "Many people may have hearts fully of love for God; yet not believe in Jesus as Savior."

What's it mean that they "have hearts fully of love for God." Does it mean that they know their need and dispise their sin, and call out for mercy. That's necessary for anyone who would become a Christian. Your statement sounds -- sorry -- sappy and romantic. If they truly have hearts "full of love for God", then who are we to deny it.

But if they ARE saved by Christ's cross, without knowing about it, then they are still (as in Romans 4) saved the same way as the rest of humanity:
    24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.



AS TO JUDGEMENT www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Judgment.html


THE CROSS

quote:
echoed by St. John of Damascus, the great Byzantine theologian, hymnographer, and dogmatic systematizer in the eighth century:

LIST]Every action, therefore, and performance of miracles by Christ are most great and divine and marvelous: but the most marvelous of all is His precious Cross. For no other thing has subdued death, expiated the sin of the first parent, despoiled Hades, bestowed the resurrection, granted the power to us of contemning the present and even death itself, prepared the return to our former blessedness, opened the gates of Paradise, given our nature a seat at the right hand of God, and made us the children and heirs of God, save the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. For by the Cross s all things have been made right. So many of us, the apostle says, as were baptized into Christ, were baptized into His death, and as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Further Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Lo! the death of Christ, that is, the Cross, clothed us with the enhypostatic wisdom and power of God. And the power of God is the Word of the Cross, either because God’s might, that is, the victory over death, has been revealed to us by it, or because, just as the four extremities of the Cross are held fast and bound together by the bolt in the middle, so also by God’s power the height and the depth, the length and the breadth, that is, every creature visible and invisible, is maintained. This was given to us as a sign on our forehead, just as the circumcision was given to Israel: for by it we believers are separated and distinguished from unbelievers. This is the shield and weapon against, and trophy over, the devil. This is the seal that the destroyer may not touch you, as saith the Scripture. This is the resurrection of those lying in death, the support of the standing, the staff of the weak, the rod of the flock, the safe conduct of the earnest, the perfection of those that press forwards, the salvation of soul and body, the aversion of all things evil, the patron of all things good, the taking away of sin, the plant of resurrection, the tree of eternal life. [15]


quote:
St. Nicholas Cabasilas wrote in his classic work The Life in Christ:

    What could be more precious than this death [upon the Cross], what more awesome? How great a sin had human nature committed that needed so great a penalty to expiate it! How great was the wound that required the power of this remedy! [16]

    He who seeks to be united with Him must therefore share with Him in His Flesh, partake of deification, and share in His death and resurrection. So we are baptized in order that we may die that death and rise again in that resurrection. We are chrismated in order that we may become partakers of the royal anointing of His deification. By feeding on the most sacred bread and drinking the most divine cup we share in the very flesh and Blood which the Saviour assumed. In this way we are joined to Him who for our sake was incarnate and who deified our nature, who died and rose again [17].[/LIST]


quote:
St. Paul himself said of the Eucharist "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come" (1 Cor. 11:26).


Back to Top
 

Leila
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
 
   Posted 5/9/2003 3:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your responses, but I still don’t understand the Orthodox view of how Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross relates to our eternal destiny. The web site you referenced states:

quote:
Thus, man's final judgment and eternal destiny depends solely on whether or not man loves God and his brethren. It depends on whether or not man loves the light more than the darkness -- or the darkness more than the light. It depends, we might say, on whether or not man loves Love and Light Itself; whether or not man loves Life -- which is God Himself; the God revealed in creation, in all things, in the "least of the brethren."


It seems to me that many people could fulfill these criteria –“loving God and his brethren” – yet not believe in Jesus as Savior. Thus, from my limited reading of these documents pertaining to heaven/hell, it appears that the Orthodox view emphasizes our relation to God the Father as the determining factor in our eternal destiny, rather than our faith in Jesus the Son. What am I missing here?



Back to Top
 

PotOnWheel
Registered Member




Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 5/9/2003 4:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
it appears that the Orthodox view emphasizes our relation to God the Father as the determining factor in our eternal destiny, rather than our faith in Jesus the Son. What am I missing here?


I'm not sure what you're missing. Want to help?

The quote you post says: "whether or not man loves Life -- which is God Himself." John 3:16-21 says lots about approaching or running from God. Read that. You say "as the determining factor ... our faith in Jesus the Son." What do YOU mean by that. MY Evanglicalism says that means: "confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead." Same for you? Billy Graham says "repent." He's right. What IS involved in "loving God Himself?"

We CAN'T love only one of the persons of the Trinity. Scripture says so, even. But if you think that you can love Jesus and not His Father you took a detour. (Maybe I misunderstad you there.)

I think that you might find that lots of Pentacostals and Evangelicals grew up thinking that Chrisitians have a relationship with Jesus, and not the Father, and for the Evangelicals of the 50s or 60s not the Holy Spirit either. Wesleyan Methodists had their good Trinitarian hymns; but us Evangelicals "only had Jesus." It verged on "tritheism."

John 3:16-21 says that it all has to do with your relationship with God. God is Tri-unity. Again, those Orthodox explain things well, so here's another link:

    http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html


You get the whole Godhead -- You can't "collect them individually."

Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:03 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads