Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/6/2003 6:06 AM (GMT -6)

In my view, a good portion of apologetics is about trying to learn and understand as much as possible about the world-view of the non-Christians one is trying to reach. Movies portray important aspects of these world-views in a condensed fashion, relative to books. So I thought it would be a good exercise for us to describe the messages being sent about homosexuality in various films(One can then after give one's Christian response, but I think it is important to try to neutrally describe the basic messages of the films.

I'll start with two french films, French Twist and The Closet.

French Twist is in the mold of the classic love-triangle, but with a french twist. The protagonist is a beautiful Spanish house-wife who had married a successful French business-man. There marriage is happy but, unbeknowst to her, her husband is sleeping around alot. Then, one day the vehicle of a lesbian(probably constitutional) breaks down or she ends up helping with some kitchen appliance that is broken. The lesbian is attracted to the housewife, who turns her down out of devotion to her husband. The husband and his fellow philanderer friend decide as a joke to invite the lesbian out for dinner, after between-themselves making numerous gay-jokes and references to her unattractiveness. The next day in a twist of events, the philanderer friend ends up confessing to the house-wife about all their philanderings, driving her into the arms of the lesbian and getting the husband kicked out of the house.

At this point, it turns out that the husband does love his wife and vows to fight for her, by ending his philanderings and by being willing to share her with the lesbian. As time goes on, he picks up the advantage, even inviting the lesbian's old friends to come and stay for dinner with them with the view to further win back his wife, finally the lesbian strikes up a deal with him. If he impregnates her she will leave.

And so the film could have ended, but then a year or so later, the wife meets the friends of the lesbians on a train and finds out that her husband had given the lesbian a child. Then, in a fit of morality, she insists that her husband and her go to Paris to find the lesbian, invite her and her child back into their household so that child will have a family/father. So after some scenes with them in a gay-bar, the three are reunited once more.

Then in the last scene show the husband implicitly propositioning another male who is implied to be a homosexual.

The point of the film are the following:
1. the wife's affair with the lesbian is no worse than the husband's dalliances.
2. Apparently all females could be bisexual, though they likely prefer heterosexual sex.
3. Acceptance of homosexuality is independent of a commitment to general morality.
4. Down deep, there is ambiguity in all of our sexualities that we could become accustomed to if given the chance.

Of course, both are wrong in no. 1. No. 2 and 4 undermines the determinism argument for homosexuality, although it doesn't preclude the existence of constitutional homosexuals. No. 3 is gay-rights propaganda and reflects how far removed the french/european culture is from a commitment to giving the Bible authority over their lives as the base for morality.

The Closet is a clever film where a mediocre french employee discovers that he is targeted for being fired. In france, getting fired means a significant drop in your lifetime income as it tends to be hard to get a similar life-time post in a corporation afterwards. In his desperation, he turns to his new, gay neighbor for advice. The neighbor advises him to pretend to be gay. Apparently, a couple of decades ago, he was fired from his job because he was gay. The employee does this and saves his job and attracts the interest of a beautiful co-worker, stuns his ex-wife and wins the support of his son. Another co-worker, played by Gerard Depardieu, who initially was quite homo-phobic and quite domineering over his wife, finds that his previous tauntings of the pseudo-gay employee may end up endangering his own job and so he does a 180 and goes to ridiculous extremes to be nice to the guy, ending up with him being in a psychiatry for a spell. Also, along the employee ends up getting beat up by two other homophobic employees. Stands up for his beautiful female co-worker, who almost was fired to clear the way for his promotion. He learns to give up on his ex-spouse and moves on with his life, keeping his job at the end.

Points of the movie:
1. Times have changed and acceptance of homosexuality is now mainstream. They do not face as much unjust discrimination as they have in the past.
2. Those opposed to homosexuals are either brutish homophobes society can do without, or mentally weak.

Response:
1. Clearly, no one should be fired from their job or beaten up because they are a homosexual.
2. Gay-rights activist love portraying their opposition with these images. As they love appropriating the civil-rights banner, though, most A-American leaders of the original civil rights movement are opposed to this appropriation.

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 6/6/2003 6:38 AM (GMT -6)

I , for one, am sick of this issue! If one doesn't have an issue of homosexual struggle in one's own life, I don't see why you have to keep analyzing it - how is it affecting you? There are many varieties of sin in everyone's life - all you can do is make sure you yourself are right with God, and treat others according to the Golden Rule and with respect - and leave the rest up to God!!
Sorry to sound flip - but this issue really bores me after awhile :_)

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/6/2003 6:43 AM (GMT -6)

Well, the traditional notion of homosexuality as being akin to schizophrenia has lost out. It looms large in the cultural wars and I see myself as trying to understand the rhetoric of the gay-rights activists so as to be able to give a well-informed Christian critique of it that will undermine their claims to the high-ground and ability to portray heterosexists as ignorant, hateful people.

In my communication with my gay-rights activist friends, while I was in grad-school, that was the impression they got. They didn't like my position since it was so much less helpful to their cause do to its understanding of the facts and reasonableness.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/6/2003 7:07 AM (GMT -6)

I would also say that, just as learning a nation's language, opens up doors to building relationships with them, so does watching and studying gay-rights movies.

By spending time studying the facts of the issue and the other side's arguments, one can, perhaps, win the legitimacy of your dissenting views and be able to build friendships with them, which will give you the opportunity to witness through your life, at the least.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 6/6/2003 8:53 AM (GMT -6)

RD: you are sooo right! Three cheers for you!!!

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/6/2003 9:15 AM (GMT -6)

I have an ex-aunt is a schizophrenic and, yes, homosexuality used to be considered as similar to schizophrenia.

If you're not interested then don't post.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/17/2003 5:48 AM (GMT -6)

I saw "Kissing Jessica Stein" last night. It reminded me a lot of Seesaw/Bobbie's posts in the Homosexuality link.

Here you have a straight female undergoing a relationship crisis finding her "soul-mate" as a very active bisexual. A relationship which eventually ends due to Jessica not being gay enough, and her friend perhaps wanting more freedom to be with several others.

At one point in the movie, the bi is having an argument with her two male homosexual friends. The first male says something to the effect about homosexuality supposed to be determined before birth and remarks that she has gotten more dick than he ever has. The second guy settles the argument by asking whether he would be able to tell the difference if he or her was giving him a blow-job if the lights were off.

The point is that there are potential ambiguities regarding our sexualities and much of what we do and don't do is based on custom, not genetics or endocrinology. However, the gay-rights community takes a very radical stance against the customs we inherited from the Western Christian tradition. In their view, they are wrong and oppressive(Back when I was in Grad-School, I can tell you that Sociology and Psychology majors could really get going on Gender(as opposed to Sex) and how so much of what we accept is imposed on us...).

Anyways, I like watching gay-rights activist movies because they show how they are manipulating others normative view-points and because it exposes the holes in several of their arguments. Arguments that are often taken for granted by others(such as the focus of pro-gay posters here on this board on the constitutionality of homosexuality, when in the gay-rights community the relative importance of this is much, much less...

I think there is still a need for deliberation on what exactly is the most loving thing that the Christian Church should do wrt homosexuality. The images/messages being broadcast in these movies are quite dangerous.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 7/9/2003 10:37 AM (GMT -6)

Someone should critique the film Bound, the first film made by the Wachowski Brothers on this link.

I don't think I can access it here at home or in MX.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 7/10/2003 9:38 AM (GMT -6)

Yeah, I think people (at least at this site) are burned out on this issue DLW. I think you might want to talk about some other group or sum'n.

Hey I know! How 'bout we pick on BLACKS!?

First, I think they are the inferior race of who was that again? Ham! Go figure. Any guy that goes by the name "HAM" is definitely inferior in MY book. Oh no, that's right! The curse was on one of his sons...Canaan...well, anyway...he (HAM)is a descendent of the black race.

If that is the case, then I don't see how guys like Meph Man can be sooo intelligent. Just isn't possible. I've seen pictures of the Meph Man and by no means does he look intelligent. Ugly maybe, but not intelligent. Therefore, in all actuality, I don't think I was seeing the REAL Meph Man but an imposter. The REAL Meph Man is a white anglo-saxon. Has to be! Look at the intelligence in his writings. I mean, even the grammar is...well...white.

He don't even sound like no black man!

Do you "hear ebonics" in his most intelligent of postings ringing in your head as your lips quiver as you read along??

No brah. Only "proper English" peeps.

Only the white man can speak so eloquently.

I think what this means is that if we are going to evangelize "THEM", we will have to learn their (nation's), language so as to open up doors to building relationships with THEM. This can be done by watching and studying black-rights movies, reading black literature, and studying vocal ability (I must admit, sometimes I get jealous cause they can make their voice sound sauve for long periods of time when they sing i.e. Boyz to Men on "I'll Make Love to You" especially at the end). We will also have to study, more so than any other cultural aspect, DANC'N. Well, maybe some basketball too.

But danc'n is impotent. Cause THATS LANGUAGE. White folk just have no rythm. If white men can't jump, they surely can't dance. They like to think they can, but we all KNOW they can't. Ain't that right Tom?

Opps! There it is!

But after all is said and done, we will try and rescue THEM from their own blackness. I don't want to sound like I have "HAMAPHOBIA," and I really don't think I do. But we will not stay in their culture lest somehow we are perverted or infected by it. And we will have to move THEM out of their culture to the purity of the white race.

How we will change their skin, I'm not to sure of, but I'm work'n on it.

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 7/10/2003 10:47 AM (GMT -6)

Yeah, I guess that's why Hell is the new hot-topic.

I should start a link on whether or not their is homosexuality in Hell.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 7/16/2003 8:33 PM (GMT -6)

DLW: Yeah, I guess that's why Hell is the new hot-topic. I should start a link on whether or not their is homosexuality in Hell.

Doc: Well, while I too am burned out on the gay issue for the time being, I wholeheartedly applaud your heart to fully understand, empathize and offer a plausible and loving Christian response. I would personally have trouble watching the films your analyzing for any other reason than to perhaps get inside the head of gay people. Since I have gay friends, however, I don't feel this need.

And I like your dry humor too.

Doc

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 7/17/2003 5:23 AM (GMT -6)

homosexuality is likely to become the next abortion-topic that potentially subverts the democratic process by looming large and ideologically-divisive in the politics.

Hence, the importance of understanding it as well as possible and sounding a Christian alternative that is truly distinct.

And Doc, thanks!

luv ya,
dlw

I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!

Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.

ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino.

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:56 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual