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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/26/2003 4:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here is a very helpful portion from John F. White's Protestant Church Architecture.

White says: "...Many denominations have, in effect, sold their birthright in worship for a pot of porridge..." So, what's the "birthright?" Here's a few short bits on that subject.


quote:
(from section three of the first chapter)


But there is a less obvious danger in worship centered upon man's feelings; the fullness of Christian worship is likely to become obscured by such an attitude. To make worship largely o dependent upon transient moods, is to concentrate upon only one aspect of worship and to sacrifice the most important aspects. It is tragic how many dimensions of worship have been lost to our consciousness in the last hundred years. Many denominations have, in effect, sold their birthright in worship for a pot of porridge.

Far more is involved in worship than simply our feelings about God and man. In worship our relationships to God and man are constituted so that our whole being is changed. This is not simply a temporary emotional spree but an enduring transformation of our beliefs, our activities, and indeed our relationship to being in general. Writing on the religious affections in the eighteenth century, Jonathan Edwards pointed out that feelings were transient and could not be adequate gauges of a person's relationship to God.19 (19 Religious Affections, edited by John E.,Smith) Worship changes one's being by uniting him to a community of faith. As such, he is placed in a new relationship to God, to his fellow Christian, and to the world. But this new being is not something effected by man's efforts or gauged by his sincerity. He comes into his fullness by being made a member of the community united to God in faith. And this community, the Church, is established not by the efforts of man but by the grace of Christ.

It is important to remember that Christ is present in, with, and through the acts that we perform in worship. According to His will, His work is accomplished through what we do when we gather for worship. The work of worship that we offer can be a means of receiving Christ. Through His grace, the acts that we perform in celebrating holy communion become a means for the building up of His Church. Preaching and listening to preaching are acts of man through which God's Word addresses men. It is indeed misleading to distinguish in worship between acting and receiving for both occur simultaneously. Our giving is receiving. Christ may work in the worship we offer.

The unique quality of Christian worship is that it centers upon the work of God in Christ in establishing a community of those who are enabled to worship Him. It is by the power of God that men are united in receiving what God has done for them. The Pauline metaphor, the "body of Christ," expresses most concisely the nature of the Church. Just as no part of the human body can exist independently of the rest, so Christians cannot exist without the Church. John Calvin was merely echoing a third-century theologian when he observed that he saw no "hope for any forgiveness of sins or any salvation" outside of the Church.20 (20 Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV, i, 4) Christian worship, then, is the worship of those who "are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another."

In this sense we refer to Christian worship as corporate worship, that is, the worship of those who are one body, the body of Christ. This important fact distinguishes Christian worship from all other worship offered in this world. It has a unity which the dimensions of time and space cannot overcome.

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Magneton
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   Posted 3/28/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW,
Great thoughts on worship. It's only in recent years that I've begun to appreciate the scope and importance of worship. In my previous churches, when we came together each week there was more emphasis on learning and committing ourselves to be and do what God wants. You could say there was more focus on the purposes of God than the glory of God.

In the White quote I wonder if would be better (and more consistent with the rest of the quote) to say that the Body of Christ is more than a "Pauline metaphor." The ongoing presence and activity of Christ in a body held together and controlled by his Spirit, as a continuation of the Incarnation, is a powerful concept.

On the place of worship, the closing lines from John Templeton & Robert Hermann's The God Who Would Be Known rather blew me away, and are very appropriate for our present times:
quote:
Just a few months before his untimely death in 1944, William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, broadcasting over the BBC, made the statement,

The world will be saved from political chaos and collapse by one thing only: That is worship.

Then he gave a definition of worship:

To quicken the conscience by the holiness of God,
To feed the mind with the truth of God,
To purge the imagination with the beauty of God,
To open the heart to the love of God,
To devote the will to the purpose of God.


Magneton

"Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair." - Gilbert K. Chesterton
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might-be-don
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   Posted 3/28/2003 7:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
WHAT! No "in the groove" worship band? What about the banners? Dancers? Plastic communion cups? megawatt sound systems? Thousands gathered together? What about IMAG, with giant preacher heads on big screens?

But you say, the above are means to achieve the desired ends. I say no, it's just noise to coverup the turmoil that we live in. We need Jesus to speak, "Peace, be still".

-------
To quicken the conscience by the holiness of God, YES
To feed the mind with the truth of God, YES
To purge the imagination with the beauty of God, YES
To open the heart to the love of God, YES
To devote the will to the purpose of God. YES
-------
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
| | | | | |
YES This is Worship.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse
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Laika
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   Posted 4/2/2003 7:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

WHAT! No "in the groove" worship band? What about the banners? Dancers? Plastic communion cups? megawatt sound systems? Thousands gathered together? What about IMAG, with giant preacher heads on big screens?



I firmly believe the music of Jesus' day was 1970s stadium/prog rock.


_________________________
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might-be-don
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   Posted 4/3/2003 1:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bring on the downbeat, loud and proud... dance..dance....dance...dance..dance.....dance

just don't mistake it for worship, call it having a good time. It's ok to have a good time. It's ok to feel good. Get high.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse
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Magneton
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   Posted 4/3/2003 4:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree, Don. It’s a mistake to equate our song services with worship. Worship involves the whole life. That’s why I like Temple’s definition of worship I’d quoted above:

To quicken the conscience by the holiness of God,
To feed the mind with the truth of God,
To purge the imagination with the beauty of God,
To open the heart to the love of God,
To devote the will to the purpose of God.


To include the whole person, I would add:

To engage the body in the work of God.

To be an instrument used by God (in the spirit of the prayer of St. Francis of Asissi) is also part of our worship.

I’ve always been left a little cold by the standard definition of worship, “attributing worth to God.” It sounds too much like an accounting operation: a sterile entry on a spreadsheet.

For a definition of worship, I like what Gilbert Bilzekian says in Christianity 101:

Worship is the acknowledgement and the celebration of the centrality of God in all of life.

Magneton

“The world is not especially rare in good ideas and good emotions; it is rare in good expressions.” -- Willa Cather
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might-be-don
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   Posted 4/3/2003 5:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

To include the whole person, I would add:

To engage the body in the work of God.


I think I know what you mean, but I prefer a defination of "work of God" as the work God does IN us, not through us. God's work is forming Christ in us. So maybe...

To submit the body to the work of God

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse
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Magneton
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   Posted 4/4/2003 11:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
To submit the body to the work of God

I like that too. As Rom. 12:1 says, to present our bodies as living sacrifices is a spiritual act of worship.

I do, however, believe that God works through us as well as in us, when we minister to the physical and spiritual needs of those around us. This is getting at what it means that we are the Body of Christ. After reading some of Thomas Torrance, I’m starting to view this in a more literal sense than I had previously.
quote:
The church is the body of Christ not because of an external relation of moral resemblance or a mere judicial transaction, but because of a real participation in Christ who is of one being (homoousios with God the Father, but who is also one being with us in his vicarious humanity through the incarnation.

This participation in Christ does not, of course, mean that Torrance conceives of the relation between the church and Christ as exactly the same as the relation the incarnate Son and God the Father. The church’s union with Christ is one of grace and adoption through the gift of the Spirit who dwells in us and unites us to Christ and his vicarious humanity through the mutual mediation of Christ and the Spirit. But it does mean that the church as the body of Christ in Torrance’s theology is no mere figurative expression, but rather articulates a real ontological relation and participation of the church in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
…
The Son of God became one in bodily humanity with us, renewing that humanity for us, making it partake of the Holy Spirit, reconciling and sanctifying that humanity in atoning life and death, resurrecting it and uniting it forever through himself with the Godhead. The bodily incarnation is not a temporary episode in Torrance’s perspective, but persists forever as a divine-human reality in the trinitarian life of God.

Elmer M. Colyer, How to Read T.F. Torrance, p. 172

There seems to be a greater reality to the body of Christ than, say, a student body or a legislative body. With such a real connection with Christ himself, how can I not love the body of Christ and marvel that we can be an integral part of his ongoing work of reconciliation?

Any thoughts on this literal view of the body of Christ and the continuation of the Incarnation?

Magneton

“We are getting into semantics again. If we use words, there is a very grave danger they will be misinterpreted.” H. R. Haldeman
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/4/2003 12:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
There seems to be a greater reality to the body of Christ than, say, a student body or a legislative body. With such a real connection with Christ himself, how can I not love the body of Christ and marvel that we can be an integral part of his ongoing work of reconciliation?

Any thoughts on this literal view of the body of Christ and the continuation of the Incarnation?

Magneton



This is CENTRAL!

Read the SCEOND essay on this page:

    http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/publications/lifeinchrist/2003/march.html


quote:
. . . Lenten asceticism is an invitation, a call to something greater, more beautiful and more fulfilling than anything our ordinary experience can offer. It is an appeal, made by God Himself, to recognize that He alone is the object of every true desire, every authentic longing we can know.

Insofar as we heed this appeal, we discover that each day of our life can truly be viewed and lived in the "joyful sorrow" of the Lenten spring. We find, to our astonishment and our delight, that every gesture and every attitude can be shaped by a profound anticipation, a profound longing, for the transformation of our lowly body into the glorious Body of Jesus Christ (Phil 3:21).
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Magneton
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   Posted 4/5/2003 11:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(o),
I’m a little confused here. Is this author suggesting that we only gradually become part of the body of Christ as part of a process of spiritual transformation?

Magneton

"They say that God is everywhere, and yet we always think of Him as somewhat of a recluse." - Emily Dickinson
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/5/2003 12:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
(o),
I’m a little confused here. Is this author suggesting that we only gradually become part of the body of Christ as part of a process of spiritual transformation?

Magneton


(o): That does seem so.

How can us Protestant's make sense of that? We have such a tradition, with widely scattered pronoucements (like: "once saved...") that anything less abstract than what we are used to seems, foreign.

As you said, "gradually become part of the body of Christ", or as the article said, "the transformation of our lowly body into the glorious Body of Jesus Christ (Phil 3:21).", does seem to be this foreign talk. But maybe that is just the "native" talk of Christians all along.

I really like this article by the Bethel Seminary prof. R. Rakestraw:

    http://www.bethel.edu/~rakrob/files/THEOSIS2.html


Rakestraw records: "Leech writes that according to Maximus, "deification is the work of divine grace by which human nature is so transformed that it `shines forth with a supernatural light and is transported above its own limits by a superabundance of glory'."

And also: Archbishop Basil Krivocheine, expressing the thought of St. Symeon the New Theologian, writes: Divinization is the state of man's total transformation, effected by the Holy Spirit, when man observes the commandments of God, acquires the evangelical virtues and shares in the sufferings of Christ. The Holy Spirit then gives man a divine intelligence and incorruptibility. Man does not receive a new soul, but the Holy Spirit unites essentially with the whole man, body and soul. He makes of him a son of God, a god by adoption, though man does not cease being a man, a simple creature, even when he clearly sees the Father. He may be called man and god at the same time.


And: "Wesley would agree with both. Whatever his primary understanding, his thought is clear: in the incarnation God adds to himself human flesh, so that human flesh may actually become transformed as it is changed by the very life of God indwelling it.
At the end of one of his eucharistic hymns, Charles Wesley prays:
    Thy Kingdom come to every heart
    And all thou hast, and all thou art."


Continuing: Wesley desires not only God's gifts, but also his life and perfections--all that can be conjoined to human beings. In another hymn he is even more explicit:
    Heavenly Adam, Life divine,
    Change my nature into thine;
    Move and spread throughout my soul,
    Actuate and fill the whole;
    Be it I no longer now
    Living in the flesh, but thou."



THOSE are not explicitly about worship. But as you have centered on, Magneton, we have to recognize the connection between worship and our state and transformation.


Returning to James White, let me see what I can find in the rest of the chapter.

Word-searching "transform":

quote:
Far more is involved in worship than simply our feelings about God and man. In worship our relationships to God and man are constituted so that our whole being is changed. This is not simply a temporary emotional spree but an enduring transformation of our beliefs, our activities, and indeed our relationship to being in general. Writing on the religious affections in the eighteenth century, Jonathan Edwards pointed out that feelings were transient and could not be adequate gauges of a person's relationship to God.19 Worship changes one's being by uniting him to a community of faith. As such, he is placed in a new relationship to God, to his fellow Christian, and to the world. But this new being is not something effected by man's efforts or gauged by his sincerity. He comes into his fullness by being made a member of the community united to God in faith. And this community, the Church, is established not by the efforts of man but by the grace of Christ.
16 Religious Affections, edited by John E.,Smith (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959).


Please notice that "by the grace of Christ" does not use the "unmerited favor" definition of "grace" -- but means the "energies" of God. (Both Calvin and Eastern Orthodoxy use it that way.)


THAT SAID, HERE'S SOMETHING NEW FROM WHITE:



quote:
This corporateness in Christ is expressed in Christian worship by two distinct disciplines, personal devotions and common worship. It should be made very clear that personal devotions and common worship are both corporate in nature. In personal devotions one does not approach God as the "alone with the Alone," but as a member of the body of Christ even though the other members are not physically present. Likewise it should be remembered that personal devotions and common worship have always been regarded as complementing and depending upon each other. Neither discipline is superior to the other; both suffer when one is neglected. They do, however, have some quite different characteristics aside from the corporate nature that unites them.


Note that these are both forms of "CORPORATENESS IN CHRIST," even though one of them is con individually and the other is done together in a group.

That's interesting.


Keep it up, guys!


Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/05/2003 5:33:54 PM
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Magneton
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   Posted 4/5/2003 3:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Concerning “the transformation of our lowly body into the glorious Body of Jesus Christ (Phil 3:21)”:

First of all, Phil. 3:21 deals with our transformation into his likeness, not with becoming part of the body of Christ:

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. Phil.3:20-21.

I also liked the Rakestraw article, but the issue of divinization or theosis is, as he says, about people becoming like God, and not about Christ continuing to be incarnate in the world. It’s about the nature of humans, not Christ and his body.

The understanding of the Incarnation that I’m getting from Torrance (you’d like him (o), he draws heavily on the Greek Fathers) goes this way: Christ became part of this world and of humanity by being born into it, inheriting the same susceptibility to illness, injury, and exhaustion that we do. In other words, his body was not perfect. The incarnation was not a transient event, but rather Christ continues to be incarnate in his followers, who bear God’s Spirit within them. The body of Christ is an ontological reality, not merely an association of people with a common purpose. Again it is not a perfect body; there is a great deal of weakness and dysfunction. Yet amid this weakness and dysfunction, he does his work in the world through this body, while transforming us into his likeness. The fact that his work on the cross was accomplished through ultimate vulnerability and weakness is an indication of the way he continues to operate, through the weak things in this world (see the Torrance and Omnipotence thread for more on this):
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1889

Magneton

“If God speaks to man, he undoubtedly uses the language of mathematics.” - Henri Poincare


Edited by - Magneton on 04/05/2003 8:44:37 PM
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might-be-don
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   Posted 4/6/2003 2:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
I do, however, believe that God works through us as well as in us, when we minister to the physical and spiritual needs of those around us.

Absolutely, God works through us. But, I would say that's our response to the work of God in us.

God shows us his love, we respond to Him(worship) and to others(service). Love God and love one another.

peace and love, don

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"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/6/2003 5:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Absolutely, God works through us. But, I would say that's our response to the work of God in us.

God shows us his love, we respond to Him(worship) and to others(service). Love God and love one another.

peace and love, don



Great, Don!


Add to that the activity of the Holy Spirit, "constituting" the Church as Christ's Body.


quote:
And enable us whom thou hast placed in this thy service, by the power of thy Holy Spirit, blamelessly and without faltering, with the witness of a clean conscience, to call upon thee at all times and in every place, that hearing us, thou mayest be gracious unto us in the multitude of thy goodness.
. . .

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

. . .

...we call upon thee and pray thee, and supplicate thee: send down thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.

. . .

Having asked for the unity of the faith and the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commend ourselves and each other and all our life unto Christ our God.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/6/2003 5:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
The understanding of the Incarnation that I’m getting from Torrance ... (draws heavily on the Greek Fathers) goes this way:
    Christ became part of this world and of humanity by being born into it, inheriting the same susceptibility to illness, injury, and exhaustion that we do. In other words, his body was not perfect. The incarnation was not a transient event, but rather Christ continues to be incarnate in his followers, who bear God’s Spirit within them. The body of Christ is an ontological reality, not merely an association of people with a common purpose. Again it is not a perfect body; there is a great deal of weakness and dysfunction. Yet amid this weakness and dysfunction, he does his work in the world through this body, while transforming us into his likeness. The fact that his work on the cross was accomplished through ultimate vulnerability and weakness is an indication of the way he continues to operate, through the weak things in this world...



I like: The body of Christ is an ontological reality, not merely an association of people with a common purpose.

I'm guarded on the view, that seems to be above, that the Church has "a great deal of weakness and dysfunction." I think that there is truth that the suffering of the Church contributes somehow to the "bearing of one another's burdens." Obviously it is ONLY Christ that is our Mediator and Savior. But we do also pray, and the saints pray, and the angels pray. So there has to be an opening for our sufferings to contribute. But my "guarded-ness" is placed so as to make room for the presence NOW of the fulness of Christ even though there is partiality now. Its like with Communion. We do not participate in a broken piece of Christ. No matter how big or small the bread... it is the full whole of Christ that we participate in. Likewise, "weak" and "disfunctional" on the outside, inside the Church has the "Life of the World." By the Spirit we have Christ. And the Church manifests Christ. This is not just a half-full versus half-empty issue. Its a all-or-none issue. I guess that is why the "incarnational" term is so good. The radicalness of it. God's presence with men!


So, to this:

    "The fact that his work on the cross was accomplished through ultimate vulnerability and weakness is an indication of the way he continues to operate, through the weak things in this world..,"


I'd add:

    "...his work on the cross was accomplished through ultimate POWER. AND... he continues to operate, through IN POWER ... in this world."

    Trampling down death by death. And to those in the tomb BESTOWING LIFE.



Romans 4:23-25 "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification."

And in liturgy the Church says: "REMEMBERING" this saving commandment and all those things which came to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again...

The Church can "remember" something that has not historically happened to it yet BECAUSE the Church already participates, through the Spirit, IN Christ's life.

(Ask St. John Chrysostom, or John Calvin!)



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 04/06/2003 11:01:10 AM
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Magneton
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   Posted 4/7/2003 5:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Good posts, Don & PoW.

The reality of God’s participation in the world by incarnating himself in his Word and in his people is awesome indeed. The understanding of the Body of Christ as a tangible reality – an organism, knitted together, empowered and guided by the actual presence of the Holy Spirit changes how I view the activity of God in the world. I agree, PoW, that we have ALL of the Spirit of God, who provides the “nourishment” and power that we need to function as “cells” in his body. Ongoing spiritual transformation from the dysfunctions we find in each of us is necessary if the body is to be healthy.

To put some substance to spiritual transformation and also to the statement that worship involves our whole life and total being, I really like the balance of Richard Foster’s approach:
http://www.renovare.org/journey_spiritual_formation_groups_disciplines.htm

This summarizes the six Christian traditions we all need to practice, as discussed in Foster’s Streams of Living Water.

Magneton

Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence. Spanish Proverb


Edited by - Magneton on 04/07/2003 10:13:18 PM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/7/2004 2:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(Good thread.)
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/23/2004 6:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 3/31/2004 11:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmmm........

On the inner-liturgy/outer-liturgy issue, where sometimes the words or actions race past you before you know what has come, leaving the real you in their wake. Or, having engaged a part of the liturgy it isn't given its "space" to work. This is more than just the old issue of whether the silent prayer is too long, too short, or the Goldie Locks Special. The issue is whether we can do the "work" of the liturgy (remember James Whites remarks?).

. . .


On that point, the Orthodox Vespers service follows the outline Creation--Fall-Redemption. And the Matins service (which sometimes is connected to it) goes in reverse order. In Vespers the parts are all addressed with Psalms and other scriptures composed with hymns (sticheria, that explains and amplifies the revealed meaning of the Psalms and Gospel narrative, etc.). But they are also capped off by _boisterous_ anthems that you just really want to sing with gusto.

"The Hymn of Creation" is Psalm 104: "Bless the Lord, O my soul, blessed art Though, O Lord. O Lord my God Thou aret very great. How glorious are They works O Lord, in wisdom hast Thou made them all." (Functions like the "Our hope is in the name of the Lord who made the heavens and the earth..." in Reformed services.)

The Fall anthem is Psalm 1: "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, Alleluia, Alleluia! For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of thw sicked will parrish, Alleluia, Alleluia! Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice in Him with trembling, Alleluia, Alleluia! Blessed are all who take refuge in Him. Alleluia, Alleluia! Slavation belongs to our God, They blessijng be upon Thy people. Alleluia, Alleluia! Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and unto ages of ages, Amen. Alleluia, Alleluia! Alleluia!" That, and the "Lord I call upon me hear me" liturgy serves very nicely as the "confession of sins."

And the Redemption anthem is the 'Lux Hallarion' "Oh Gladsom Light of the holy Glory of the immortal Father, Heavenly holy blessed Jesus Christ. Now that we have come to the setting of the sun, and behold the light of evening, We praise God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For proper it is at all times to worship Thee with boices of praise. O Son of Gos and Gover of Life, Therefore all the world doth glorify Thee!"

POINT IS, that when the first two are taken care of, not just in the outter liturgy, but done--as it is--effectively in the inner liturgy, you really are ready to worship THROUGH the third, as a "transparent window" (an oral icon).

the fourth anthem (There are some really good prayers too!) is the Nunc Dimis (?): "Lord now letYour sevant depart in peace, according to Your word, for my eyes have seen Your salvation, which You have prepared before the face of all people, a light to enlighten the Gentiles, and to be the flory of They people, Israel." Without the other three you COULD NOT pray this sung prayer! How could you "see" God's salvation in Christ without knowing confession? And how could you know confession without knowing the Creator and that his creation is good?

Everything is connected.

But the liturgy, the tool of the WORK of worship has to be a ladder for our worship to climb!

SOME THOUGHTS.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/26/2006 10:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Golden Telephone

A man in Topeka, Kansas, decided to write a book about churches around the
country. He started by flying to San Francisco, and started working east
from there.

Going to a very large church, he began taking photographs and making notes.
He spotted a golden telephone on the vestibule wall and was intrigued with a
sign which read "$10,000 a minute."

Seeking out the pastor he asked about the phone and the sign. The pastor
answered that this golden phone is, in fact, a direct line to Heaven and if
he pays the price he can talk directly to God. The man thanked the pastor
and continued on his way.

As he continued to visit churches in Seattle, Austin, Michigan, Chicago,
Milwaukee, Boston, New York, Orlando, and all around the United States, he
found more phones, with the same sign, and the same answer from each pastor.

Finally, he arrived in Iowa. Upon entering a church in Iowa City, Iowa,
behold, he saw the usual golden telephone. But THIS time, the sign read:
"Calls: 35 cents."

Fascinated, he asked to talk to the pastor. Reverend, I have been in cities
all across the country and in each church I have found this golden telephone
and have been told it is a direct line to Heaven and that I could talk to
God, but, in the other churches the cost was $10,000 a minute - your charge is only 35 cents. How can this be?
.
.
.
.
.
The pastor, smiling benignly, replied,
"Son, you're in Iowa now.....it's a
local call."


 
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