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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/29/2002 4:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | markus: I cannot see how one can separate into separate, watertight, independent compartments, those events that God determines and those which are given to us to freely decide. Every single action that we take on our own initiative is not a simple, one-off act, it has untold repercussions that affect the whole chain of future events that interrelate with it…
…I can and do believe that God directly intervenes in this world, and that He also allows some, if not most, action to be our own decision - but I cannot find a way to understand how God can also be [unaware of the future actions we will take], or of the incredibly vast and chain-linked implications that continue beyond them.
But I am not very competent at working these things out alone and I would appreciate some guidance [on] how God could work in such a manner that He remains omniscient, but, at the same time, still ignorant of future events - or have I misunderstood the whole concept (very possible!)?
TIM: Experience is of a different nature for God, than for you or me. How so, God experiences what He knows and we know what we experience. That is, God, you, and me learn  as it were, from this experience. God learns the outcome of what He knows and we know the outcome of what we learn. As for separate, watertight, independent compartments…
I believe,
God is infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows absolutely all those things, which are possible as what is possible, certain as what is certain, contingent as what is contingent, and all those things, which are foreordained as what is predestined conclusion.
Check out this link, you will find my misunderstandings of this topic there…looking forward to your comments
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1312
God’s Love,
Tim
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 6/29/2002 7:57 PM (GMT -6) | | If God already knows every decision that I will make tomorrow then he must know every decision that I will make for the rest of my life. And if he knows this then he must have known every decision I was going to make when I was born. Of course, this then leads directly to the observation that he must have known every decision that every person was going to make from when he decided to create the universe. Which means that the whole thing has already been determined. We are just acting out the script - going through the motions. It is already written.
Think about it. In the billionth of a second it took him to work out the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of decisions and impacts and events and further decisions after he decided to create the universe he knew the whole story. He knew every little thing that was going to happen. Over 15 billion years ago (from our time perspective) he knew that Iconoclast was going to write this sentence. And there is nothing I can do to change that. Because if I do - he already knew that I was going to do that.
Upon further reflection (which he knew I was going to do) it occurs to me that he wouldn't have even had to actually create the thing before knowing how it was all going to work out. Which means that he first designed the whole thing out in his head and mentally modelled all the trillions upon trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power details before creating anything. Then he decided to do it.
if this is true then I have two questions:
1. Do we really have to go through the motions? Couldn't he just create us all in the end resultant state with memories of what we have done? I mean, whats the point?
2. How exactly am I any different than a robot or a billiard ball? Sure I am a really complex robot, but if by a calculation it can be determined exactly what I am going to do and every decision I am going to make then what does it mean that I am created in the "Image of God" (Imago Dei)? And how can I possibly be responsible for my actions because by definition it is definitive that the inputs leading up to a decision are enough to calculate exactly what I will do?
Just throwing out a stream of consciousness here.
Oh, another question:
3. Wouldn't this also mean that God has also already worked out exactly how he will intervene at each point? And therefore does it mean that God is also just going through the motions as well? He already knows each decision he will make at each point because, in fact, he already made that decision in the billionth of a second it took to work it all out.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 6/30/2002 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast,
Great questions, I am sure you have an answer for every one of them  .
markus: I have been trying to understand the basic idea behind Open Theism, which is a new, and very complicated subject for one of so little brain.
TIM: I have been trying to figure it out also, and in my discussions with Greg Boyd and his particular flavor of it, he has not disagreed with my own view; it has made him question his own, from my perspective.
"For all these reasons, I'm inclined (guardians of truth, note, not "resolved" or "teach as doctrine" -- just inclined as a possible theory) to conclude that there is a dimension of our subjective experience that God perfectly KNOWS ABOUT (e.g. in the form of propositions) but does not experience FROM THE INSIDE. He experiences all sins IMPACT on the cross of Calvary, but doesn't experience our WILLING SIN." - Greg Boyd
markus: It appears to divide the unfolding story of humankind into those events that God determines and those where God allows us free choice - but still accepts that God already predetermined the result at the very beginning.
TIM: If you are stating the true premise OV holds, I do not disagree, it is in the particulars of the working out of this premise, that I part with many. Furthermore, ‘Predetermined’ is an inappropriate term or way of expressing the truth of the matter in my mind though.
markus: This sounds very sensible to me to the extent that it adds meaning and purpose to our existence here, but I struggle to understand how God can also be without foreknowledge of our future decision-making - or why He even needs to be.
TIM: I do not believe it is possible for God not to know all possible futures; of, from, or about the free choices of all humankind, from eternity past. Universal knowledge, which is infinitely wise, has the intelligence for COMPLETE foreknowledge. However, I believe,
"God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge."
That is to say, God is relational.
God’s Love,
Tim
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/1/2002 2:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast raises two very good, fundamental questions above, relating to God’s omniscience. And I think it is essential to have a personal answer for these two issues before being able to form any belief concerning God’s foreknowledge of events.
The two questions raised are:
quote:
1. Do we really have to go through the motions? Couldn't he just create us all in the end resultant state with memories of what we have done? I mean, whats the point?
2. How exactly am I any different than a robot or a billiard ball? Sure I am a really complex robot, but if by a calculation it can be determined exactly what I am going to do and every decision I am going to make then what does it mean that I am created in the "Image of God" (Imago Dei)? And how can I possibly be responsible for my actions because by definition it is definitive that the inputs leading up to a decision are enough to calculate exactly what I will do?
Of course, this then leads directly to the observation that he must have known every decision that every person was going to make from when he decided to create the universe. Which means that the whole thing has already been determined. We are just acting out the script - going through the motions. It is already written.
Regarding the first question, Yes, God could have just created us perfect, and not bothered with any of this physical world pre-existence and experience. Equally, He could have prohibited the existence of evil and sin. But on both accounts He didn’t. So the question still is why ARE we here, and why ARE we immersed in sin and evil? But let’s come to that later.
Regarding the second question, It would only be a script if God actually wrote it. Just because He already knows what we will do through perfect deduction, it does not mean He is simultaneously robbing us of our individuality and making those decisions on our behalf. Why would the Bible contain references to God’s anger and disappointments if we were only playing out His own game? No, His disappointment comes from His own unfulfilled hope and yearning that we all would turn to him, and that none would be lost. But He knows that it will not happen because WE choose for ourselves, not God on our behalf! What an incredible gift that is from God – that we may freely choose our own destiny!! And what incredible love is shown by His refusal to interfere with our own decision-making – in spite of His burning desire that all would be saved. How easy it would be for God to artificially keep us all on the right road – but that would not achieve God’s ultimate purpose, in spite of how much it breaks His heart to see people’s waywardness and continuing stubborn refusal to all come to Him.
God demonstrates equally much restraint and patience concerning His will on earth. He could (and surely does) directly intrude into earthly events, but His wish is that his will is implemented via humankind. He craves our prayer so that He may respond, and also that we may understand what He wishes us to do – and that we then do it.
His ultimate purpose (I believe) is to retain our individuality and personality, whilst removing our demand for personal independence that is derived from our pride, ego and selfishness.
It is important to remember that all the decisions we make are based on both external circumstances AND our own reactive and proactive judgement and free-will. So the external “inputs leading up to a decision” are NOT enough to calculate what we will do, it also requires our own internal input - and that is why we are NOT robotic. The point is, though, that God ALSO knows us so well that He also knows what we will do just as well as if He WERE us Himself. And His awareness of our decision-making is a totally different thing to His usurping our own authority over our decision-making. We make our decisions, we are responsible for them, we are accountable for them – God just knows them beforehand. There is a whole world of difference between just knowing what we will decide and actually deciding for us on our behalf. Our decisions will be whatever they will be, regardless of whether God is already aware of them or not.
When we try to deny God any pre-knowledge, all we are actually trying to do is preserve some kind of personal independence and separation from God. We are fighting against surrendering ourselves totally to God – we are still trying to keep a piece of ourselves for ourselves. And this is exactly what we have to learn to surrender. If we could make even a single decision without God's pre-knowledge then that means there HAS to be a part of us that is hidden from God – that we are capable of thinking something without God’s knowledge – that there IS a hiding place from God’s eyes. Do we believe that? Really?
When considering the reason for our physical existence, I think it is very important to consider first what is God’s purpose concerning the universe that we live in. I doubt, for example, that anyone thinks our physical, mortal world is an end in itself. Therefore, it is purely a means towards something else, something far more important, far more lasting, far more significant. We know something of the nature of God’s coming kingdom, but we do not actually know anything about its purpose or what we are going to be doing there. In the same way that we ponder endlessly about the purpose of life here, isn’t it even more relevant to realize that an even greater purpose lies beyond this physical world? We do at least know that our physical universe is only an interim phase, that has both a beginning and an end – but we also know that God was here before that beginning AND that God will still be there beyond its end.
So the crucial point (for me, at least) is that God HAS to already know the outcome of this physical stage, and that the real issue lies beyond this world, not in its midst. It follows from this, that our transcient physical stage here is for our benefit only, not God’s. It is a stage where we are meant to learn about God’s values of love, selfessness, patience, perfection, goodness and so on. In our present state we are worthless to God, and we need considerable transformation for the next world, where we are to be of value to God in our own right, not as programmed robots. We are certainly made in God’s image, and that image exists inside each and every one of us, but it is buried so deeply and tarnished with such sin, that we have to struggle hard to find it within us – that is core of our mission here. Yes, God could have created us as perfect but would we understand what perfection means without having once witnessed existence within an evil, sinful, selfish environment?
It is human nature to accept the current situation as a “norm”. What is spectacular today is commonplace tomorrow. It takes ever-greater spectacles to continue to impress us. This works in both directions, both good and bad (e.g. scientific advancement and pornography). If we were created directly into the final kingdom, how long would we stay impressed before trying to take personal advantage, neglect duties, and taking everythign for granted – just as we do in this lifetime? Yes, God COULD have created us without these sinful tendencies – but then we WOULD be programmed robots. God wants to live eternity with you as an individual, self-thinking being, not as an automated God replica – but also as a person that can be trusted and has a God-like heart that needs no set of rules to live by. When the Bible says there will be no evil in the new Kingdom, it is because no one brings it with them, not because it is somehow forbidden. If God were to simply ban evil from the new Kingdom, it would mean we are not trusted, that we still would have a leaning towards sin. But the truth is, when everyone is perfected to their own image of God, there can BE no evil, because evil comes from within, not without.
If you were an army commander facing an important battle, would you prefer a unit of war-experienced veterans whose discipline, decision-making and teamwork is based on an inner appreciation of the essentiality of these qualities for survival - or an bunch of energetic, newly trained recruits? Surely, our experiences here are even more essential in building the maturity and character of those populating God’s new world?
God may know already who will be with him in the next life - but we certainly do not! We still have to make all those decisions that lie ahead of us. We still have to decide for ourselves, do we wish to give ourselves to God or not – is that not the whole purpose of having a God that is invisible and yet still tangible? What purpose would there be in God revealing Himself fully to all persons? How would that allow us to find and treasure our knowledge of God? If He were provable, visible, then everyone would simply accept Him and become complacent to Him and remain unchanged and imperfect, within themselves – they would follow God through necessity and not for the right reasons, and thereby still retain the seed of evil potential. It would lie buried in our hearts instead of exorcised through a lifetime struggle with faith and a yearning to see God clearly and to move as close to Him as possible.
But it is OUR decision, each of us alone, whether we do look for God. And what a wonderful, inspiring, thought that God gives us this lifetime to learn these values! A school in which we develop our selves – not for this lifetime, but for the next. We know we cannot succeed here in a world controlled by evil, and Jesus warns us many times that it will be a life full of difficulties and stress. But we are not here to achieve results, we are only expected to allow Christ through faith to change our inner selves, our attitudes, our values. And above all, we are here to find our love of God through deep faith and prayer.
I believe God calls on all people at various times in our lives – and it is up to us whether we recognize it and accept it, or walk away from it. Maybe we often walk away many times without even realizing it before the truth finally dawns. For many people, this calling comes during times of suffering, for often the stars are only brighter and more valuable when seen from the bottom of the well than from the peak of the mountain. When things go well for us and we feel on top of the world, we often forget our need for God.
But rather than limiting our focus to our decision-making today, let us imagine how we will be able to look back on this life from the next lifetime. Project yourself ahead to the time beyond this world, where you can look back and see how God, even knowing how some would continually refuse Him, still allowed them the right and opportunity to decide for themselves! Only then will we realize the true value of what God has allowed us here. We will see the true justice in His judgement. We will see how we justified our own salvation through our belief and yearning, regardless of failings. We will each be filled with thanksgiving and a deep humility for the salvation through grace that God has extended towards us in recognition of our faithfulness. Each will be filled with a deep understanding and love of God’s ways and a commitment to Him through eternity. And all this is a prerequisite of life with God. We will have more freedom there than we could ever imagine now. Afterall, is eternity just for singing and playing harps? I doubt that! There is work to be done.
And what better work can there be than having free responsibility to work autonomously for God with perfection in one’s heart?
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/01/2002 07:37:57 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/1/2002 2:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, Tim for your thoughts. I liked the following very much 
quote:
TIM: I do not believe it is possible for God not to know all possible futures; of, from, or about the free choices of all humankind, from eternity past. Universal knowledge, which is infinitely wise, has the intelligence for COMPLETE foreknowledge. However, I believe,
"God, with an infinite foreknowledge, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge."
Foreknowledge does not mean already executed. So God certainly has every ability to do whatever He likes to guide, correct, etc. Of course, He already knows what HE will do and when, but it is not yet done.
Again, this might sound boring and pointless from God's own perspective, but WE are the reason why all this exists around us. It is WE who are being moulded towards perfection, if we allow it. It is WE who need this process, God is only managing it for as long as it is still required - the "school" will be wound up for good.
As usual, I add the disclaimer that these are only my own views, and I have no wish to try to convert or divert anyone from their own views. I just believe sharing views and insights makes us all much richer. Some opinions may change our own, others may just strengthen those we already have. But in all cases, it makes us challenge our own beliefs and makes us meditate on them more deeply - and thus strengthening and deepening our own faith and knowledge of God.
Surely God appreciates a sincere, questing heart - not just the accuracy of our opinions?
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/01/2002 07:52:04 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/1/2002 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear markus.
I absolutely love reading your post; you expose what I believe is the truth, so clearly.
I believe the call of experience is to risk the peril of life; exposed to injury, loss, and destruction. The price of passage through the state of things, which is the affair; to conduct myself, with what happens well, or ill; attended by the circumstance of events, both fortunate and unfortunate. Instructed by life; the skill of knowledge is taught by use, and is the call to learn. The experience of the trial, the test of the experiment, the effect upon my judgment and feelings produced by the event, is the act of one with all knowledge, the creator. Observation and experiment; made to confirm or disprove under life conditions, determined by the experimenter, that is God. The act and operation of creation; undertaken in order to discover something unknown about life, choice; choice is the subject of God’s experiment; to try me, to know my God, to perceive Him correctly, to prove me, by the trial of the experience.
God’s Love,
Tim
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 7/2/2002 6:49 PM (GMT -6) | | markus:
It is important to remember that all the decisions we make are based on both external circumstances AND our own reactive and proactive judgement and free-will. So the external “inputs leading up to a decision” are NOT enough to calculate what we will do, it also requires our own internal input - and that is why we are NOT robotic. The point is, though, that God ALSO knows us so well that He also knows what we will do just as well as if He WERE us Himself.
Iconoclast:
I almost completely agree with what you and Tim wrote. I just think that you are actually presupposing libertarian free-will in all of it. If it is possible to know someone well enough to perfectly determine what decisions they will make then they do not have free-will. They are determined. They are simply a huge conglomeration of billiard balls that God created. I agree that “our own internal input” is required to calculate what we will do. However this input is also created and determined by God. To me it is just part of the overall input that God created. IF God can 100% determine what choices we will make based on this then free-will does not exist – it is a fiction.
Notice that in Genesis it says that God breathed His spirit into us. He gave us free-will. We are responsible for our choices. I do not know how to understand this in any other way than that our choices are real choices – which entails that they may, in fact, surprise God – meaning that God cannot 100% determine what choices we make based on the inputs (including who we are). By definition, if he can, then we don’t have free-will. Everything you and Tim say presupposes that we actually can make real choices that we are responsible for and that are not 100% determined by who we are and our environment. If you believe this is true then by what logic can God possibly know 100% what our choices will be? Libertarian Free-Will requires that God cannot know for sure what our choices will be. It is a logical contradiction along the lines of it being impossible to have mountains without valleys.
Now, if you say it is because God is truly outside of “time” and that He is really just looking ahead in time then you are making an argument about the nature of time. Is this where you were going?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited by - Iconoclast on 07/02/2002 11:53:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/3/2002 12:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast
I certainly do believe in free-will - not just that it exists, but that it lies at the very heart of the purpose of our existence here. Without it we have no identity, no character, no individuality.
I am not sure I really understand what you mean by “If it is possible to know someone well enough to perfectly determine what decisions they will make then they do not have free-will.” Why should knowing what someone will do have to also mean determining what they will do? I believe these are two very different matters:
Example:
I stand on high hill that is surrounded by a single track railway. I see two trains leave from opposite sides of the hill in opposite directions. I know they cannot see each other. I know they will crash – does that also mean that I have actually determined that they should crash? I don’t think so, I have had no direct input to the scenario, I have only foreseen the result based on my total knowledge of all factors.
If God knows everything, including how you work, why can’t He be passively aware of what you will decide in every situation without being actually responsible for your decision?
The main problems for me in the idea that God might not know for sure what our future choices will be, are:
1) it means there are things going on inside us that God is unaware of. That also implies that sin could be tucked away in our innermost free-will pockets that God cannot see. Do you believe there can be anything in our hearts and minds that God is unaware of? How can God be our judge, if there are parts of us hidden from His view?
2) If God is unaware of the outcome of even one future decision, He has to accept a certain degree of uncertainty about everything in the future, as He is unable to see the full impact of that one unknown decision. If you decide to drive to work instead of walk, you impact on the timing and thinking of every single person you meet, who, in turn, interact differently with everyone that they meet. The chain reactions from even the minutest variation in our acts are enormous and can snowball into affecting the future of millions of people. In the above example, because you are in your car, the guy behind you gets caught with a red light instead of passing through green if you hadn’t been there. His life is now 1 min different. Just think how that could change other people lives permanently....
3) It means God is ignorant of who is to be born in the future and when they will die. This does not tie in too well with the Bible’s references to the Book of Life. Whilst I guess this is an area of some uncertainty, these verses do suggest to me that all names were already known before the start of the world, especially as they refer to possibly removing names and not just not including them – but this is perhaps a pretty feeble argument on my part!!
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
....And, no, I am not intending making an argument about the nature of time . I know nothing of that! I do accept that there may be different rates of time passing, but that’s all. But I see nothing wrong with God being capable of looking ahead in the same way we do, with the only difference that His view of forthcoming events is perfect – is this not what prophecy is about?
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/03/2002 05:27:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/3/2002 4:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast and Keith,
Iconoclast: I almost completely agree with what you and Tim wrote, however, if God could determine by 100%, the choices we will make, then free will does not exist, and it is a fiction.
markus: Why should God ‘knowing’ what I will do, have to also mean God ‘determining’ what I will do? I believe these are two very different matters.
TIM: I believe,
God is infinitely wise, with universal knowledge; knows absolutely all those things, which are possible as what is possible, certain as what is certain, contingent as what is contingent, and all those things, which are foreordained as what is predestined conclusion.
God, with an infinite foreknowledge or intelligence, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge.
That is, God is relational, and the relationship I have with God, determined by me, in my mind, is as much as determined by God alone, as being made available for me to have, that is. I believe God simply knows all ‘Possible Certainties’, in this relationship with me as it develops into something perfect, which is His will alone, that is an entirely different subject though.
In addition, I do not believe I am completely in the same place of understanding foreknowledge as markus presents, or the Open View position, as I understand it. I do believe however, all of us here are in a place for a break through, in at least an understanding of one another, if not at least, sharing some of the same beliefs about God’s foreknowledge. Consider what was said, in another post concerning this subject, in response to my belief…
"For all these reasons, I'm inclined (guardians of truth, note, not "resolved" or "teach as doctrine" -- just inclined as a possible theory) to conclude that there is a dimension of our subjective experience that God perfectly KNOWS ABOUT (e.g. in the form of propositions) but does not experience FROM THE INSIDE. He experiences all sins IMPACT on the cross of Calvary, but doesn't experience our WILLING SIN." - Greg Boyd
That is, because God knows Himself, He is ALL KNOWLEDGE; therefore, I believe God knows every possible certain experience of every human that might ever be born. God does not determine who will be born; He simply knows all possible certainties of who might be born.
I am not saying, God learns, orthodox frowns upon that. God experiences the freedom of my choices for the first time when they occur; that is, they become actual. He knows of all the possible consequences of giving humankind the freedom of choice, simply because He is knowledge and cannot help but know. However, I will state again, God is not a prisoner of His knowledge and neither am I.
The following are quotes from previous conversations I have had or read concerning this subject…parenthesis are mine.
"…Take the doctrines (or teachings) of God's foreknowledge and determination separately and look at what the Bible says about each of them. Proving that men have free wills does not prove that God does not have exhaustive (or infinite) foreknowledge." - Abbie
"God knows all things that exist; the question is whether the future exists (predetermined) or not." - Obadiah
"Therefore, in Acts 15:18, God knows all of His works, 1) Some as absolute 2) Some as possible 3) Some as doubtful." - Bob
"For what can scape the eye Of God all-seeing, or deceive his heart Omniscient?" - Milton
"I believe ‘Infinite Foreknowledge’, is the unlimited awareness of all actualities, before only one literally occurs? Prescience or foresight of all possible realities does not determine which one, ‘possibility’, will exist; it simply knows only one will, and God is very aware of its existence, before it actually occurs." - Tim Short
Newcomb commenting on the last quote by me: How does this happen? Where does the claim come from? This isn't scripture, so what support is made for it?
Tim: I offer four elements, not just one, concerning Gods understanding or ‘intelligence as Greg would put it’, of knowing what will happen before it does: possibility, certainty, contingency, and predestination. The following dice story is a word picture, explaining ‘possibility’ only,
Consider the throwing of dice, every few seconds, over a few years, and knowing all of the possible sequences of combinations, which could exist, before actually throwing the dice and such, would be foreknowledge, but not infinite.
Now, when you actually throw the dice every few seconds, over a few years; only one sequence of numbers, out of all the possible known combinations, of sequences, of numbers, would or could exist.
God’s Love,
Tim
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 7/3/2002 8:20 PM (GMT -6) | | markus
I am not sure I really understand what you mean by “If it is possible to know someone well enough to perfectly determine what decisions they will make then they do not have free-will.” Why should knowing what someone will do have to also mean determining what they will do? I believe these are two very different matters:
Example:
I stand on high hill that is surrounded by a single track railway. I see two trains leave from opposite sides of the hill in opposite directions. I know they cannot see each other. I know they will crash – does that also mean that I have actually determined that they should crash? I don’t think so, I have had no direct input to the scenario, I have only foreseen the result based on my total knowledge of all factors.
If God knows everything, including how you work, why can’t He be passively aware of what you will decide in every situation without being actually responsible for your decision?
Iconoclast
We are missing each other a bit. Your example is helpful. I agree that just because you know something (which means you assign 100% probability to an outcome) does not mean that you determine it.
On the other hand lets change the example. Lets assume that you were the one who created the single track railway and sent two trains on a collision course just like in your example. In this case who is responsible for the trains colliding? Clearly it is you. You created a situation where there was no other possible outcome than the two trains colliding. There was simply no free will involved. A simple calculation tells you if the trains will collide or not. But you built the situation – you determined the parameters of the situation that led directly to the result.
Now lets say you created the situation where there was NOT a certainty that the two trains would collide. Lets say that you set it up where each train had 100 people on it and the engineer of each train at a certain point could plainly see that he could either save his own life at the expense of the 100 people or he could save the 100 people but only at the expense of his own life.
Now a key assumption here is that you just created these engineers. The question is: did you create them with the ability to freely choose?
If you KNOW for a certainty what the engineers will decide – if it simply a calculation then it CANNOT involve ANY probabilities – and therefore they aren’t really deciding – you, the creator, already decided by how you built them. On the other hand, if you ONLY know what the probabilities are then free will is involved. In order to give us free will God had to build in probabilities into the world. It may be highly probable that I will choose one course of action versus another – but if I can NEVER choose the improbable course then I do not have free will.
markus
The main problems for me in the idea that God might not know for sure what our future choices will be, are:
1) it means there are things going on inside us that God is unaware of. That also implies that sin could be tucked away in our innermost free-will pockets that God cannot see. Do you believe there can be anything in our hearts and minds that God is unaware of? How can God be our judge, if there are parts of us hidden from His view?
Iconoclast
I believe God know absolutely everything about me – nothing is hidden – ever. Your comment presupposes that given full knowledge of my current state God can predict what I will choose. I believe God fully knows my current state but because he gave me free will he does not know for sure what I will next choose – I am actually and literally free to choose. Moreover I believe God loves this – he just loves letting me freely choose. In fact, he delights in seeing the things I choose. He delights in me when I choose to have a child. He delights in me when I choose to have 3 children. He delights in me when I choose to stop having any more children. And he would have delighted in me if I had chosen to have 4 children. God’s will is not singular. God’s will is that I freely choose to love. And all of these can be loving choices. God loves the diversity and spontaneity that free choice brings. Why? Because God is the ultimate free will being and he created us in his Image (Imago Dei). God delights in his choices and he wants us to have the same delight he has.
markus
2) If God is unaware of the outcome of even one future decision, He has to accept a certain degree of uncertainty about everything in the future, as He is unable to see the full impact of that one unknown decision. If you decide to drive to work instead of walk, you impact on the timing and thinking of every single person you meet, who, in turn, interact differently with everyone that they meet. The chain reactions from even the minutest variation in our acts are enormous and can snowball into affecting the future of millions of people. In the above example, because you are in your car, the guy behind you gets caught with a red light instead of passing through green if you hadn’t been there. His life is now 1 min different. Just think how that could change other people lives permanently....
Iconoclast
Yes! Exactly. This shows just how radical and how powerful God is. God accepts – nay – embraces this uncertainty. This is LIFE! Anything less than this is DEATH! Moreover just think now about exactly how incredibly responsible we really, really ARE! This is serious stuff. We hold life and death in our hands – right here – and right now. “What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” One negative comment could push someone over the edge to commit suicide. One careless moment could end the lives of an entire family in a car crash. One smile indicating that you care about someone else could give them hope and encourage them for another day. It was very, very serious stuff that was going on in Noah’s day – God was NOT happy – it was not going well - He decided to do the big REBOOT (thanks again Noah – way to work with God under such a difficult environment). It really does matter what we do. Based on what we do things could be much better here on earth or things could be much worse. It is our choice.
Enjoying the dialogue.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/3/2002 8:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Tim,
Thanks for your valuable post! I understand (I hope!) when you state the following:
quote:
I believe ‘Infinite Foreknowledge’, is the unlimited awareness of all actualities, before only one literally occurs? Prescience or foresight of all possible realities does not determine which one, ‘possibility’, will exist; it simply knows only one will, and God is very aware of its existence, before it actually occurs." - Tim Short
I doubt that many would disagree with you, and it describes very well the infinite depth and breadth of god's knowledge and awareness.
However, I would like to ask you, do you feel that simply having knowledge of all the possible alternatives is sufficient for the Bible to prophecy? How can the great prophets have been given foreknowledge of events to come - and how could God with certainty have wanted such prophecy to hold such a core position of importance in the Bible? Surely, if God were only aware of all the possible alternatives (which would be hugely wide-ranging) all prophecy would have to be on a conditional, "providing that", basis.
Even a very modest computer can be programed with all the possible moves and counter-moves for a game of chess, but does that information give the computer any pre-knowledge whatsoever regarding the course of play or outcome of any single game anyone played?
I would ask you then what possible use could pre-knowledge of all possible alternatives be for God? Or have I misunderstood your point? (please forgive me if I AM on the wrong track!).
I think we sometimes naturally picture God as a separate being external to ourselves, but I don't think that is the case. Whilst it is truly impossible to understand the complexity of a relationship that is both within and without, I do fully agree with you that God is entirely relational with everyone and everything simultaneously. Whilst we have a unique, independent existence of our own (which is an infinitely precious and significant event) there should be no reason to doubt the possibility that God knows us infinitely well, so well that He knows better than we how we will react to any situation.
I guess one reference that points towards this relationship with God through Christ could be:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21
Markus
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/3/2002 10:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast,
Thanks so much for your input. You know, we are actually talking about pretty much the very same thing, and I agree with you about almost anything except the point whether or not God already knows what your freely-chosen decisions will be. In your last paragraph you describe so wonderfully and powerfully both the beauty and the responsibility that go hand in hand with the freedom of choice that God gave us.
I am not any kind of theologian or student of Biblical Studies - my faith is on the street, here and now, in one’s face. And I identify very strongly with what you say about how we can and do affect other people and the world we live in. The course of history IS ours to determine through our own collective choices (with a few divine interventions where appropriate).
But I do not see how this freedom is in any way impaired or constrained by God walking alongside you like a shadow, observing, knowing full well what is going on all the time – and not interfering, even when one’s acts are going to hurt someone else or hurt God Himself so much.
I would emphasise again, how can God prophecy through the Bible’s prophets if He does not yet know what we do? If, as you suggest, God does not know beforehand how many children you will have, how can He predict who will be where, and doing what, at any given time, in order to be able to prophecy?
If God is unaware of our decision-making, then I only see two conclusions, either the final outcome is also not known, or God has to interfere and tamper with things to keep us on course. I don’t feel too comfortable with either of these. The first means that Revelation should not even be in the Bible, whilst the second amounts to post-event manipulative, corrective, undoing of some of our decisions (selected by God) – which in tum becomes an influencing factor upon others’ free-choice. This is no longer freedom of choice, but guided persuasion towards certain targets.
I would respond to a few of your points as follows:
quote:
On the other hand lets change the example. Lets assume that you were the one who created the single track railway and sent two trains on a collision course just like in your example. In this case who is responsible for the trains colliding? Clearly it is you.
Yes, if I had sent those two trains then I would certainly be responsible. But I didn’t say that I had sent them. That decision lay with the train personnel themselves – the point is that, even if I HAD known and COULD have stopped them, I didn’t interfere because it is their own right to decide for themselves that is paramount in the whole scenario – and I need to let them eventually see for themselves what implications their own judgement led to, without them being able to point the finger back at me. This may seem very cruel in some areas of life, but ultimately it is not physical suffering or death in this world that is important – it is the on-going damage or improvement that we do to our spiritual self that is ultimately everlasting.
You say above that:
quote:
I agree that just because you know something (which means you assign 100% probability to an outcome) does not mean that you determine it.
but then I think you are maybe suggesting that knowledge DOES means determination by saying:
quote:
If you KNOW for a certainty what the engineers will decide – if it simply a calculation then it CANNOT involve ANY probabilities – and therefore they aren’t really deciding – you, the creator, already decided by how you built them.
I am not saying that pre-knowledge by God means He has fed into us both a basic operating system and a suite of “FreeChoice” application software that He has already pre-configured for us. Actually, I would be tempted to accept the idea of just the OS, come to think of it . But you are the sole architect responsible for designing, configuring and implementing what you build on top of that OS software.
We are more than a physical being. In fact our physical being is not even relevant in the long term. God is spiritual and so are we. God is not external to our spiritual being, but is within us. I believe although He knows precisely what is going on now and next, He still feels pain, sorrow, joy, pleasure, as we do what we do – just as you describe
You say:
quote:
I believe God knows absolutely everything about me – nothing is hidden – ever. Your comment presupposes that given full knowledge of my current state God can predict what I will choose. I believe God fully knows my current state but because he gave me free will he does not know for sure what I will next choose
If God really does know absolutely know everything about you, how can He be unable to put Himself in your position and know what you will choose to do? – and why shouldn’t He? Just because He is passively there inside you, knowing all there is to know about you, does not mean He is stripping you of your choice – He simply knows, nothing more.
You also say:
quote:
This is LIFE! Anything less than this is DEATH! Moreover just think now about exactly how incredibly responsible we really, really ARE! This is serious stuff. We hold life and death in our hands – right here – and right now.
I couldn’t agree more! Your words brought tears to my eyes. If only more people could take such a responsible and, indeed, creative attitude towards their daily life, our world would be a very different place. I do believe we hold life and death in our own hands – our spiritual life and death. God has given us the right to choose our own destiny. I do not say that we decide if we are saved, He calls upon us and His selection is final, but through His grace and mercy we are actually given the freedom to choose for ourselves whether to accept God’s offer to us – or not. What an enormous gift from God – and most people do not even give it a second thought.
Whilst good works do not count towards our salvation they DO provide a measure of the sincerity of our faith. It breaks my heart to see millions of dollars spent on internet gambling, for example, when vast numbers of kids cannot even eat, go to school, drink fresh water, and sell their bodies for money just to survive.
But this is the world that we humans have created, and are responsible for. Your posting, Iconoclast, reverberates with the life and passion that proves beyond all doubt that we ARE free-thinking, free-choosing beings and that, I am sure, is the very foundation upon which the Judgement process is secured – we WILL have no argument before God as we stand uniquely before Him accountable for our own works.
I would never remove one iota of individual responsibility from our thoughts, words and deeds – that is what puts the LIFE into life. But if you imagine life as a video where God can fast forward based on deduction and knowledge, and then rewind, He is left with full awareness of the outcome - and without any resultant conversion of our free choice into a predetermined scenario.
“I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.” Jhn 13:18
I believe that Scripture is fulfilled and that God is aware of the final outcome, not because God forces, manipulates or pre-determined it, but because He simply knows beforehand, through extrapolation based on total knowledge of all things and all people, what we are all going to do.
Please be assured my intention is not to try to change anyone’s views, but to share opinions and thoughts and understandings. I do not think God is interested in who is right - but who is faithful and how we manifest our faith through our deeds. And in that spirit I thank you greatly for sharing your thoughts here
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/04/2002 03:43:44 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/4/2002 2:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Iconoclast and Keith,
I have taken the privilege to summarize the conversation between us, thus far, with some editing, and further thoughts of my own. Hoping it will help each us further understand the others position and to reconcile our differences.
Markus said, "The OV position appears to divide the unfolding story of humankind into those events that God determines and those where God allows us free choice - but still accepts that the end result was already predetermined by God at the very beginning."
TIM: I do not know if I have got the same impression Markus, that OV’ers, "accept that the end result was already predetermined by God at the very beginning." Predetermination appears to me, to be the exact thing OV’ers attempt to disprove, that is, the Calvinists pre-deterministic view, etc.
Markus says further, "How can there be anything about my heart and mind that God is Unaware of? Moreover, this includes my decision-making as well.
God allows me to make decisions to show or prove my worthiness, attitude, potential, faith, or whatever it might be - but the effectiveness of that is not undermined by the fact that God already knows the outcome.
Who is on trial in this world, not God?
I can and do believe that God directly intervenes in this world, and that He also allows some, if not most, action to be my own decision - but I cannot find a way to understand how God can also be unaware of the future actions I will take, or of the incredibly vast and chain-linked implications that continue beyond them."
TIM: Experience is of a different nature for God, than for you or me, Markus. That is to say, I believe God experiences what He knows and I simply know what I experience. That is, God, you, and me learn as it were, from this experience to an OV’er. They might say, "God is learning the outcome of what He knows and I will know the outcome of what I experience or learn". Learn is an aphorism, which OV’ers use, which is opposed by many, for various reasons. I believe a good definition of ‘God’s experience’, rather than the phrase of ‘God learning’, would reconcile the differences, of the OV’er opponents or the simply confused, such as myself.
Iconoclast said, "If God already knows every decision that I will make tomorrow, then he must know every decision that I will make for the rest of my life. Would this not also mean, God has already worked out exactly, how he will intervene at each point? Therefore, is God not also, just going through the motions as well?"
Tim: I believe God, with an infinite foreknowledge or intelligence, without fatalistic determinism, remains free to make decisions and alter purposes according to His own will and wisdom; He is not a prisoner of His own foreknowledge. That is to say, God is relational.
Markus replies to Iconoclast, "Yes, God could have created me perfect, and not bothered with…experience. It would only be a script…however, why would the Bible contain references to God’s anger and disappointments, if I were only playing out, His own game? What an incredible gift I have from God – that I may freely choose my own destiny! God demonstrates equally, much restraint, and patience, concerning His will on earth. I make my decisions, I am responsible for them, I am accountable for them, – God just knows them beforehand. That is, my decisions will be whatever they will be, regardless of whether God is already aware of them or not.
When I try to deny God any pre-knowledge, all I am actually trying to do is preserve some kind of personal independence and separation from God. If I could make, even a single decision without God's pre-knowledge, then that means there HAS to be a part of me, which is hidden from God – that I am capable of thinking something without God’s knowledge – that there IS a hiding place for me from God’s eyes. It follows from this, [if it be true], that my transient physical stage here is for my benefit only, not God’s.  In my present state, I am worthless to God, and I need considerable transformation for the next world, where we are to be of value to God in our own right, not as programmed robots. Yes, God could have created me as perfect, but would I understand what perfection means, without having once witnessed existence within an evil, sinful, selfish environment?’
TIM: I am not altogether sure, what to make of this Markus, "It follows…for my benefit only, not God’s. In my present state, I am worthless to God…" That is, I believe I am a minister of reconciliation, and my present state is not entirely worthless to God. That is, you may be going somewhere else with it; which I am not completing missing, "I need considerable transformation for the next world…" Your thoughts are somewhat confusing for me to discern though, fully that is. Brackets are mine, to try to help me to connects the dots in my thinking, of what you might actually be presenting; excuse my confusion though, please.
Markus continues with his reply to Iconoclast, ‘Yes, God COULD have created me without these sinful tendencies – but then I WOULD be a programmed robot. God wants to live eternity with me as an individual, self-thinking being, not as an automated God replica – but also as a person that can be trusted and has a God-like heart that needs no set of rules to live by. If God simply banned evil from the New Kingdom, it would mean I am not trusted; that I still would have a leaning towards sin. Surely, our experiences here are even more essential in building the maturity and character of those populating God’s New World.’
TIM: I do not know if I agree with every proposition you are making here and there, Markus. If I remember, I will approach such ideas some other time though, not now, because it is somewhat off the subject of pre-knowledge, as you call it.
Markus further replies to Iconoclast, ‘God may know already who will be with him in the next life - but I certainly do not! I still have to decide for myself, do I wish to give myself to God or not – is that not the whole purpose of having a God that is invisible and yet still tangible? What purpose would there be in God revealing Himself fully to all persons? How would that allow me to find and treasure my knowledge of God? When things go well for me and I feel on top of the world, I often forget my need for God.
Only then will I realize the true value of what God has allowed me here. Each will be filled with a deep understanding and love of God’s ways and a commitment to Him through eternity. And all this is a prerequisite of life with God."
Markus said to me, "So God certainly has every ability to do whatever He likes to guide, correct, etc. Surely God appreciates a sincere, questing heart - not just the accuracy of my opinions?"
TIM: I believe observation and experiment is God’s part, and is to confirm or disprove me under life conditions; determined by the experimenter, which is God. The act and operation of creation is undertaken in order to discover something unknown about my life, namely choice. Choice is the subject of God’s experiment; to try me, so that I might know my God, in order to perceive Him correctly, to prove me faithful or not, by the trial of the experience; the experiment of God.
Iconoclast says, "If God can determine by 100%, what choices I will make, based on this then, free-will does not exist – it is a fiction.
I do not know how to understand this in any other way, than that my choices are real choices – which entails that they may, in fact, surprise God – meaning that God cannot determine by 100%, what choices I make…If you believe this is true, then by what logic can you determine, God possibly knows 100% of what your choices will be? Libertarian Free-Will requires that God cannot know for sure what our choices will be."
TIM: The problem I see Iconoclast is not how can God know 100%, of what my choices will be, it is that I believe God sees beyond 100%, in order for their to be true choice. Markus and me have the same dilemma as you, only in reverse, that is, how can God, from where all knowledge arrives to me, not know. I go beyond where Markus does I believe and say God knows 1,000,000,000,000% and more, of what my choices will be; does this make any sense?
Markus says, "The main problems for me in the idea that God might not know for sure what our future choices will be, are:
1) It means there are things going on inside me that God is unaware of. That also implies that sin could be tucked away in my innermost free-will pockets that God cannot see. Do you believe there can be anything in my heart and mind that God is unaware of? How can God be my judge, if there are parts of me hidden from His view?
2) If God is unaware of the outcome of even one future decision, He has to accept a certain degree of uncertainty about everything in the future, as He is unable to see the full impact of that one unknown decision. 3) It means God is ignorant of who is to be born in the future and when they will die."
TIM: God is relational, and the relationship I have with God, determined by me, in my mind, is as much as determined by God alone, as being made available for me to have, that is. I am not saying, God learns, orthodox frowns upon that. God experiences the freedom of my choices for the first time when they occur; that is, they become actual.
"…Take the doctrines (or teachings) of God's foreknowledge and determination separately and look at what the Bible says about each of them. Proving that men have free wills does not prove that God does not have exhaustive (or infinite) foreknowledge." – Abbie
"God knows all things that exist; the question is whether the future exists (predetermined) or not." - Obadiah
Iconoclast responds to Markus: In order to give us free will God had to build in probabilities into the world. It may be highly probable that I will choose one course of action versus another – but if I can NEVER choose the improbable course, then I do not have free will.
TIM: The idea of probabilities or ‘Possible Certainties’, is the bridge where Markus, you and I may cross in understanding, understanding that we are all actually saying the same thing differently. Markus, I believe you might need to start seeing the propositions or prepositional aspects of God more clearly and Iconoclast, you might need to go somewhat further with possibility, being completely in or of God’s mind; just my suggestion.
Iconoclast continues: I believe God knows absolutely everything about me – nothing is hidden – ever. Your comments Markus presuppose that given full knowledge of my current state, God can predict what I will choose. I believe God fully knows my current state, but because he gave me free will, he does not know for sure what I will next choose – I am actually and literally free to choose. Moreover, I believe God loves this – he just loves letting me freely choose. God’s will is not singular. God’s will is that I freely choose to love. God loves the diversity and spontaneity that free choice brings. Why? Because, God is the ultimate free will being and he created us in his Image (Imago Dei). God delights in his choices and he wants us to have the same delight he has.
God accepts – nay – embraces this uncertainty. This is LIFE! We hold life and death in our hands – right here – and right now. It is our choice.
TIM: I do not believe God predicts what I will choose; God simply knows for sure what my options are, and is able to interfere with my choices, if He chooses. God sees things pretty much, black and white, concerning my choices, in my mind. That is, it is either in His will or out of it. As Christians, I believe God works in each of us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure, that is, this conversation is of His divine calling.
Markus responds to me: Surely, if God were only aware of all the possible alternatives (which would be hugely wide-ranging) all prophecy would have to be on a conditional, "providing that", basis.
I would ask you then, what possible use could pre-knowledge of all possible alternatives be for God? (Please forgive me, if I AM on the wrong track!).
TIM: I offered four elements, not just one, concerning Gods understanding of knowing what will happen before it does: possibility, certainty, contingency, and predestination. Possibility and contingency work somewhat hand-in-hand as so do certainty and predestination. Prophecy is most often thought, to fall somewhere between certainty and predestination, which is true, however, some of God’s prophecies were and are contingent, upon the choice of the individual.
Markus to Iconoclast: If God is unaware of our decision-making, then I only see two conclusions, either the final outcome is unknown, or God has to interfere and tamper with things to keep us on course.
If only more people could take a responsible and, indeed, creative attitude towards their daily life, our world would be a very different place. I do believe we hold life and death in our own hands – our spiritual life and death. God has given us the right to choose our own destiny. What an enormous gift from God – and most people do not even give it a second thought.
God’s Love,
Tim
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/4/2002 7:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tim,
Thanks for your hard work in making such a summary. I am deeply affected that you would have even spent so much time considering anything I have written - thank you for that wonderful compliment.
I will think longer before replying to you, but I would make one quick point concernign my own perspective:
You mentioned, "Hoping it will help each us ....to reconcile our differences."
I would just like to say that I do not personally find it necessary to reach agreement, the reward for me is in learning other people's views on similar subjects and exprssing my own - this way we all grow in our own understanding - even if they travel along different rails, at least for a time.
But, of course, it is always a great, mutually satisfying, experience to all come to the same conclusion as a result of positive discussion
In this particular case, I do not feel agreement is at all an issue as, whether or not we believe in God's fore-knowledge, we all accept full responsibility for our own decisions, and also recognise the far-reaching responsibility we carry towards ourselves and others, and the vast implications of all the decisions that we DO take.
Actually, it is the issues surrounding precisely that topic of how we lead our lives that I was aiming to discuss under this heading - maybe we can drift gradually in that direction from here?
Markus
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/6/2002 6:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Keith,
I would like to make this post concerning the subject of foreknowledge, as I drift, since it does play a major role in professed Christianity. In the sense particularly, of accepting full responsibility for our own decision of Christ or rejection, thereof.
This is Iconoclast from another thread:
…God only knows the future as a set of possibilities with probabilities [possibility]
…God can decide which probabilities he would like to assign [certainty]
…Prophecy is simply God deciding what he is going to make happen [predestination]
And sometimes only with conditions attached - IF you do this THEN I will do the following [contingency].
I also do not think that this in any way limits God's omniscience. God knows everything that there IS to know. The future IS NOT yet. So we are not saying something about God's omniscience here, we are just saying something about the nature of the future.
TIM: I can agree with Iconoclast on this, Keith, and you have already in a sense, I thought! That is, I also believe God does not know any one future, which will occur with 100% accuracy, except for predetermined prophecy and the certainty of divine intervention.
God’s Foreknowledge, concerning my free choices, is simply the awareness of all possible actualities, I might determine, before only one literally occurs. That is, ‘God’s Prescience’ concerning my choice, between all possible realities, ‘does not determine which one, possible choice, I will make’, except that it is, either in His will, or out of it.
God’s Love,
Tim
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/7/2002 8:39 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't really think we are in agreement about this, but I really don't see that it matters too much in the practical sense of how we choose to live our lives.
I do agree that "God’s foreknowledge, concerning my free choices, is ....the awareness of all possible actualities, I might determine, before only one literally occurs."
But I ALSO believe that He ALSO knows which of these free choices I am ultimately going to take. This knowledge has no bearing on our freedom, it does not interfere with our own thought process, it does not replace our own responsibility for our ultimate decision.
It does NOT mean the future has already happened, it simply means God already knows where it will eventually end up - and who will have eventually accepted his offer to spend eternity with Him.
If he only knows all the possible actualities, all that means is that God faces a hugely complex spider's web of possible interlinked decisions - a divine "spaghetti junction" if you like - with no idea along which particular tram lines the future will actually, eventually work out - what possible use is that, unless God is also going to keep tampering and fiddling around to "get it right" and eventually "home in" on prophecy.
Although God may know all our decisions beforehand, it has absolutely no impact on us as we travel through our own, individual lives. He walks beside us, interacting with us. When we pray, He reacts. When we sin, He notes. When we believe, the whole heaven cheers. It is happening live, real-time - and we are the driving force (most of the time, at least). God talks to us, calls to us, waits to use us - but it is us that has to respond to those calls, it is OUR decision, regardless of the fact that God already knows how we will choose.
This pre-knowledge, born of God's infinite knowledge and existence within you does not make us a glove puppet, reacting to the workings of God's fingers. We may just as well forget God's pre-knowledge for all the good it could do us. We are the driver's of our own destinies.
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/08/2002 05:25:26 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/8/2002 1:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Keith,
I am not going to be, to goshdern danknambit stubborn with you Keith, because I like you too much; life is either a re-enactment before God or a reaction to Him. You appear to fall on the side of reacting to the creator and others in love, which is fine enough for me. Hey, I am still developing the following, what do ya thunk…
The Way, it is a manner or means of acting or doing a thing, leading me from one thing to another, toward an ultimate goal.
The Way, it is a distance in a direction of movement toward the truth, about the location of its ultimate goal and of knowing its origin.
The Way, it is a freedom to do, as I would like along its path, with a course of conduct in reaction to the conditions, about the state of affairs.
The Truth, it is in accordance with the knowledge of awareness, about the fact of actuality, the benefit of a life’s interest.
The Truth, it is the real state of affairs, about reality accepted, as corresponding to what is honestly represented, and the resulting state of obligation.
The Truth, it is in firm reliance upon the dependability of a future hope, the ultimate goal, which the confidence of faith can be placed without misgivings.
The Life,
You say that you believe God knows the free choices I am going to make, ultimately. Is that from eternity past or in the present? Because if you are speaking in the present and from not eternity past as merely a possibility, then I have little problem with your suggestion. You say that God’s knowledge has no bearing on my freedom, although I believe it is my freedom to choose, from only what he knows, or He chooses to reveal to me, of what He knows.
You say God’s knowledge does not interfere with my own thought process, though it is His knowledge that created the thoughts I may choose from. If you would say, God’s knowledge of all things does not replace my responsibility for my own decisions, ‘among the possible’, I would then agree. However Keith, I believe God is about the business of the possible and that without it, that is the possible, there is no freedom to choose.
Your kind of thinking annoys the logic of many, not including mine  , because such thinking is ultimately, the foundation for fatalistic determinism. That is, if God knows ‘actuality’ before it occurs, then that is all that can occur, and this conversation is merely a re-enactment of God’s pre-knowledge, rather than a reaction to one another’s knowledge of God and each other. If I say, God knows all ‘Possible Actuality’ before it occurs, then this is indeed a true reaction I am having with you in a true relationship, which God knew could of happened from eternity past. I love you, keith!
God’s Love,
Tim
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/8/2002 3:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you once again Tim for contributing to this discussion – I really do appreciate your taking such a strong interest in this.
You say above:
quote:
..I believe God is about the business of the possible…
Actually, the business that God is really concerned with is YOU, Tim – and equally much every other person that has ever been, and will ever be. Behind all our talk of possibilities, probabilities, and certainties, there is God hoping for us just to at least hang on to our faith – maybe its good to remember that whether or not He is aware of our future is not ultimately a real issue for us at all – it is just a topic of debate without any possible conclusive answer. True faith is the core issue!
I believe the Bible DOES point to God’s foreknowledge, but even that seems to be open to debate, so I’ll leave that alone, I'm sure its been thoroughly discussed already elsewhere!
You say that “life is either a re-enactment before God or a reaction to Him” - I certainly don’t hold with any re-enactment, so if that makes me reactive, then I’ll go for that . Certainly I am reactive to God’s call, and I am very reactive to seeing God around me in nature and people. But I would like to think I am proactive in at least some of the things that I choose to do.
Yes I DO believe God knows, and has known, all the choices you are going to make, using your own freewill, right from the start of creation of the physical world. I really do not understand why God’s ability to lok ahead has to always be associated with any kind of pre-determinism. Knowing your decisions is not the same thing as making your decisions. They are totally divorced from each other (except where God may wish deliberately to interfere). But I do accept what you say, that our freedom to choose is limited by what He chooses to reveal to us. I fact, in response to your raising this point, it occurs to me to say that He definitely DOES limit what is revealed to us – and for our own best interests, I think! I doubt any one of us could stand the shock of knowing everything! So, if you wish to say that we have a controlled environment within which we may exercise our freewill, then I think that sounds extremely plausible
I agree that if God knows ‘actuality’ before it occurs, then that is all that can occur, - but not BECAUSE God knows it. God’s knowledge of it is NOT the driving force that determines the actuality, it is only passive knowledge of it. What happens is what happens, and it is all that CAN occur simply because it IS what occurs, because it IS what you and me decide ourselves to do. God’s pre-knowledge is not a directive factor in what will be (except where He wishes to be).
When you drive around town, you develop an ability to instinctively “know” what other drivers are going to do. Even without any signals you can often predict when someone is going to change lanes, turn left or right, jump the lights, etc. That pre-knowledge is totally isolated from the other driver’s actions and yet you have some fore-knowledge of thier decisions. I don’t say God works in exactly that way but it illustrates the non-connectivity between 3rd party knowledge and personal activity.
But we needn’t feel too stressed over this. Whatever one believes, our daily life is filled with what we can only see as choices at the time, where we alone make the decisions. Whether or not that is an illusion, or total or partial freewill, pre-known or not, is no longer relevant when it comes to the task of actually taking those decisions!
When you mention The Way and The Truth, do you mean Jesus as the Way and Truth (i.e. from the seven “I am’s in John’s Gospel))?
If so, then I see these as showing Jesus for what He is, not for what He offers us. I mean, He doesn’t show us the Way, He IS the Way. And He doesn’t tell us the Truth, He IS the Truth. I feel this is a very important point, as it states how essential it is to meditate on Jesus’ words as reported in the Gospels and try to live according to them – and nothing but them. This is certainly no easy task initially – and I think impossible without giving ourselves to Christ fully and totally.
It demands relinquishing totally our dearest possession, i.e. “me”.
After we leave the security of our parental homes, society teaches us to fend for ourselves. We have to learn to become independent and trust our own judgement and values. It is “me” against the rest of the world - which is the foundation of our pride and ego.
Then along comes Christ and we have to learn to regain that same childhood parental reliance and presence in all we do. Without letting Christ into each and every move we make, we cannot hope to remain in the Way or the Truth.
This is a great start to a new direction in conversation here – and one with practical relevance to our daily lives – tell me more, Tim
Markus
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/8/2002 9:17 PM (GMT -6) | | There is an interesting comment on another thread asking:
quote:
is your basis and understanding of your relationship with Christ apart from having to exegete the scripture?
Just how important IS the Bible in finding, building and maintaining a relationship with Christ?
If everyone who is in faith had reached that state of faith only by previously studying scripture out of, e.g. curiosity, then I doubt many would have found their faith.
In spite of our fast lifestyles, filled with all kinds of daily pressures, when we stop and look inside, (or when we are stopped by some other emotion such as suffering), it is not difficult to find a vacuum that never seems to be filled. Discontent in an atheist environment is only kept at bay by the constant renewing of material possession and recycling of money. As soon as our moneypower drops below the level sufficient to drive this constant turnover, we start feeling restlessness, frustration, boredom, envy, irritation, anger, etc.
What and why is this hollowness inside? This void that cannot be filled, only ignored by constantly occupying ourselves with other thoughts?
People often seem to think of God as an external being that they have to reach out to. But it seems to me that God is inside, and that we are actually afraid to look inside us to find Him. We are too frightened to even look deep inside our own selves. We wear our pride and our ego as our armour both in our attack and our defence. That armour gradually becomes us, and we need never look beneath it until the day comes when it is inevitably cracked open and broken.
But what do we find when we are forced to look deep inside? God wrote His laws inside our hearts, and we can feel and find them without first requiring a Bible study course. There are many good people who devote their lives to helping others and sacrificing their self-interests who also say they have not found God. We can all find our sense of value, right and wrong, fairplay, honesty - but there is still something more...
One can also find great peace and presence in a nature environment. It is difficult to avoid noticing the great design work and harmony that dominates the world of nature, where there is no such thing as waste. We can witness the intensity of the inner life force that drives both animals and plants to fight desparately for survival - and ask where does such a force come from?
Then, when one has both felt the void inside and seen the beauty outside, one can pray. Even through prayer alone, one can find faith and understanding - but can we be sure of what we feel? Can we always divide with confidence, the truth from all the other suggestions that start to infiltrate our conscience as soon as we start practising prayer?
Then we can read the Scriptures. Through these we find the confirmations of what we have been feeling and finding. We find explanations. We find the story of the human race. We find its purpose and its destination. Most of all, we find how we should translate our inner beliefs into our interaction with the world and people around us.
Certainly, faith can (and I believe usually does) come without prior Bible study, through an inner searching and prayer. But can faith be attained JUST by reading the Bible? a book? - I doubt it. Certainly one can become very knowedgeable ABOUT a faith - but is that faith?
A picture comes to mind of the various congregations established by St Paul. Sure, they had the OT scriptures, although I doubt many were so familiar with them, and they were not too helpful in supporting the new covenant that Paul brought to them. The books of the NT were not yet written and would not be brought together as a recognised canon for another several hundred years -Yet they believed. They believed on what Paul told them, and through their prayer and sharing their inner knowledge and feelings of love and community.
Even during the following generations, there was no recognised NT and yet those early Christians had a faith so burning that they willingly suffered persecution and violent death rather than deny their faith.
We have the benefit of the NT, an historical perspective, the writings of earlier great thinkers, computers, concordances - and yet, how many of us would be prepared to go THAT far for Jesus today?
Can exegesis of scripture alone provide us with a strength of faith so great that we too would give up our lives before surrendering our faith?
It is a good exercise for everyone to occasionally stop and ask from where DOES their faith originate.....
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/09/2002 02:25:00 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/9/2002 1:59 AM (GMT -6) | | You are the real thing, Keith,
So you are reactive too, huh, then let us react my brother. Because, I also believe that certain topics or the systematic study of the Bible, can lead to ignoring the teachings of Christ, in the practical application of a persons everyday life.
And no, what I am developing in the way, truth, and ultimately life statements above is not from the seven "I AM’s in John’s Gospel". They are three simple definitions of the terms presented, which might be used to lead someone to Jesus. I also agree in relinquishing my totally dearest possession, as being "me", that is, all my will for His. I also like your understanding of the parental reliance in all that I should do, like a child, coming before my true living Father, God. So to tell you more, OK Keith…But I have not the time presently, pick it up latter guy type person.
God’s Love,
Tim
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/9/2002 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Soul brother,
When you say:
quote:
I also believe that certain topics or the systematic study of the Bible, can lead to ignoring the teachings of Christ, in the practical application of a persons everyday life.
.. it reminded me of a fairly recent conversation with the Rector of a training school in St Petersburg, for new ministers.
He asked for prayers for two things:
1) Money to complete their new dormitory for students from all over the ex-USSR
2) That the new courses being planned would still allow the students sufficient time to maintain and nurture their spiritual development alongside their studies - a canny observation.
One CAN easily lose it amongst the books and the analyses.
For sure, we'll never know it all in this life, but I guess the next one is long enough for anything
Take it easy, there's no rush, it's summer and hot(at least in this hemisphere)!
Markus
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Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/9/2002 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | legacyministry.org/
For Empiress and Markus, I mentioned Rich Mullins and St. Francis. Here's one sight that gives you an idea of what the "Kid Brothers" are up to.
Sorry for the horribly long delay in posting this.
Terry
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/9/2002 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Terry,
I appreciate your efforts
Markus
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/9/2002 8:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Today, a nine year old boy will die.
He never got to read any magazines. He never knew any "isms". In fact, he never really got to know what it's like to eat.
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me." Mat 25:40
Markus
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markus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100
| Posted 7/11/2002 1:20 AM (GMT -6) | | On another conversation thread there is the question, "Does this prove that racism is rampant?"
Maybe, maybe not. But either way, rascsim is only one of the many forms of unloving that we need to recognise and overcome in order to become more like the person Christ wants us to be.
Maybe you've seen it before, but here's a little something I found that describes a few of these:
The Cold Within
Six humans trapped by happenstance in black and bitter cold.
Each possessed a stick of wood, or so the story's told.
Their dying fire in need of logs, the first woman held hers back
for on the faces around the fire, she noticed one was black.
The next man looked cross the way at one not of his church,
and couldn't place upon the fire his beloved stick of birch.
The third man sat in tattered clothes; he gave his coat a hitch.
why should his log be put to use to warm the idle rich?
But the rich man just thought about the wealth he had in store,
and how to keep what he had earned away from the lazy poor.
The black man's face only sought revenge as the fire passed from his sight,
for all he saw in his stick of wood was a chance to spite the white.
And the last man amongst the group did naught except for gain.
Giving only to those who gave him more was how he played his game.
The logs held tight in death's still hands was proof of human sin.
They didn't die from the cold without, they died from the cold within.
Markus
Edited by - markus on 07/11/2002 06:23:05 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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