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“If I’m the one that is inspired in reading the text and giving meaning to it then you have to come down real low with a view of inspiration to fit that. But if you believe that what the biblical author — Mark or Paul or John — what they meant is the word of God and they are inspired in writing this, then I want to know what they meant. I want to know what they meant, not treat the biblical text as kind of an inkblot that each one of us, with good imagination, sees something in it. I think that’s the key issue we’re facing.”

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You ask, "What difference does it actually make to me in making my choice?" Then you take away my ability to respond by saying, "Surely no difference at all ! " You steal your students, "AHA!"

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whereas what I actually wrote was:

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"what difference does it actually make to you in making your choice? – Surely no difference at all ? "

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As you will see, I actually asked you the same question twice rather than answering it for you. There is a significant difference between a "!" and a "?" .

...and you are STILL welcome to answer it: DOES God's foreknowledge or otherwise, actually make any difference to your choice at the time you make it, if you do not actually know whether or not God is aware of what your choice is going to be?

Tim, I feel a little uncomfortable with this student/teacher talk. I am in no way competent to teach anybody anything. I think we only have one teacher and one high priest, and that we are all students to that same one teacher. I doubt that anyone could claim to knowing the whole truth, but I am sure there only exists ONE whole truth. So, at best, we all only have insights into parts of that Truth - but which parts? Who knows? This is why I consider this kind of site so important - it allows us to hear and consider views and discoveries of others, whilst forcing us to think more deeply about our own views by writing them down and when considering the responses and challenges of others.

If what I write provides any impact or inspiration to anyone else, then all credit is to God.

If someone as righteous as Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch can write:

"So pray that I never fall into the trap of impressing people with clever speech, but instead I may learn to speak with humility, desiring only to impress people with Christ himself"

then who am I to try and impress others with my own immature and misguided thoughts? I am still on Paul's milk and have not even tasted the meat yet.

I believe we all share the same situation of being on a journey that either leads to God or not. But that each of our voyages are unique to ourselves. We are given the Bible as a map, and directions through prayer, but it is for each of us alone to decide whether, and to what extent, we wish to use these instruments. But although our voyages are unique we do encounter each other for varying lengths of time as we travel. Sometimes in calm waters, sometimes in the midst of violent storms, sometimes in thick dark fog, sometimes basking in joyous sunshine. During our encounters we may share experiences, dangers, hints, suggestions, understandings - but foolish, I fear, is the person who surrenders his bible and prayer entirely for the "wisdom" of another man.

Tim, as you have transferred the discussion God's foreknowledge to another thread "Would or Could", I'd like to turn to the other issue of "for whose benefit is this world".

I thank you for your verse from Rev. Indeed, uiltimately, everything is and was created by God for His own pleasure. But I don't feel by "pleasure" we mean simply for His entertainment, to occupy Him on a dull, rainy Sunday afternoon. If this world were solely for God's own pleasure, He would not put up with suffering so much at our failings.

Let us go back to Eden. If God was only interested in simple pleasure, why did He not just dump Adam and Eve, and the serpent, and start again? Why deport them to the wild world and force Himself to sit through the agony of watching subsequent generations getting themselves more and more immersed in sin? If all God wants is worship and praise, would it not be easier just to reveal Himself with a savagery that demanded praise from every single being?

There is no doubt in my mind that our life in this physical world is only a transient (but decisive) stage towards God's ultimate purpose. It is in the fulfilment of that ultimate purpose that God's pleasure lies and that justifies His patience in the meantime. Only then will He have reached His ultimate ambition in the company of His chosen people.

Does it not occur to you the similarity between our individual suffering through this life before reaching God, and His own continuing suffering through us all before He too reaches His destination in finally creating the new heaven and new earth?

We often express such horror that God allows such suffering as we see around us, but how often so we stop to think how much God also suffers for EVERY sin that everyone commits. And His fore-knowledge of our sins, only doubles his pain by first knowing what is going to come, and then having to live through it when we actually perform them.

God's graciousness and respect for the essential purpose of our free-will leaves Him a little like the father of the prodigal son. Whilst that father could surely foresee the inevitability of his son's squandering and downfall because of his innocence, ignorance and vulnerability to ways of this the world, and whilst he could also foresee the pain, anguish and remorseful regret that his own son would inevitably come to suffer, he still allowed him the opportunity to choose his own life. But all the time the father kept a home for his son should he ever finally decided himself to return.

Think of the nights of anguish that the poor father went through, knowing of his sons vulnerability, knowing that he could easily be killed or lost for ever, and that he may never see his son again. But so deep was his love for his own son that he gave him his freedom and let him fly - and so much greater was his joy when he finally returned!

God is not going to remove or hinder our expression of our freewill. But oh, how He suffers whilst so many live with their backs towards Him - for, in spite of His love for them, there is no way back until they decide themselves to turn and head home, tired, weary, broken, but wise and truly aware of what real love really means.


For me, the world is here for our benefit, Adam and Eve chose to leave home, but God wanted to give us all a chance to turn around and go back. This world is where we squander the wealth of our inheritance that God has given us - our health, our bodies, our minds - and our souls. And it is surely likely that some "sons" will not make it back.


Markus



Edited by - markus on 07/14/2002 02:00:38 AM

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DOES God's foreknowledge make any difference to my choice at the time I make it, if I do not know whether God is aware of what my choice is going to be?

NO, because I would not know whether God is aware!

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I hear…I have created a God in my own desirable image

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Being a "true" Christian should show. It shows in the things you do, the things you say, and just an over all attitude. Others are going to know what you are, [by] seeing how you are.

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The issue relates, though, to what is actually going on inside that person such that their faith DOES show. My concern is not with those who ARE true Christians, but with those that just live the title as a hollow shell. We talk of living in Christian countries and being Christians but it seems that its meaning has become so distorted and diluted that I no longer feel that “Christian" conveys anything specific – and even worse, has come to mean something extremely lukewarm. If so many people and denominations have such varied views of what Christianity and Christians are, and what they stand for, then I don't feel the term is a reliable definition in communication anymore (except on a very general level).

More worryingly, it also generates judgementalism between followers of different denominations and diversion from the core of faith. People spend more time arguing over terms than thinking about the authenticity that should underly them

Some examples:

Some Christians support baptism at birth, others claim this is meaningless. Some believe baptism is only valid with full immersion whilst many don't think this is necessary.

Some believe in the Trinity and Jesus as a deity, equal and at one with God, whilst others believe the Trinity is a man-made term and that Jesus is not a God. Others believe Jesus was just a man.

Some believe Jesus tells that few are saved, some that many are saved, other that ALL are saved.

Some believe that church-going is an integral part of worship, others think that denominational churches are a weapon of satan.

Yet, ALL these people claim to be Christian.

But perhaps the greatest problem I have with the term Christian is its use by countless lukewarm people who say things like:

"I'm not saying I'm religious or anything, but I do think there is something more to life than this".

"I go to church sometimes, but I don't read the Bible. That's just old history, you don't need that stuff anymore."

"I feel my (deceased) mum is still around me and watches what I'm doing, she's an angel now, just like she always was here."

"All you have to do is lead a decent life and don't bother other people"

"I never sin, I've never stolen anything or hit anyone"

I am not condemning these types of people. All I am saying is that my idea of "Christianity" is very different to theirs and therefore I seek a different term to better identify it. I have no right to tell them they should not use the term "Christian" therefore it is I that needs to find a different term!

So my decision to drop the term "Christian" is only based on its lack of clear definition - not as a protest of any kind. I wanted a term that defined closer for me what my faith stands for. I believe in practical faith based solely on what I understand to be Jesus's direct teachings in the NT - as described directly in the gospels, or as interpreted by Paul and the other writers of the remaining books and epistles. I am not claiming to be correct or to understand anything better than anyone else, it is just the way I try to live my life.

I prefer to try and observe what the Bible says we must and must not do. But we are not controlled by a set of external rules, we also have the gospel written in our own hearts. Therefore, any issue not explicitly determined in the NT can be interpreted according to our own prayer and listening to what we hear inside. For example, the NT does not (as far as I am aware) explicitly say that a man can only marry one wife. But the law against adultery, and the love and respect that we feel towards others, deny polygamy.

But I am rambling again!

In summary, I am not suggesting anyone should drop the title "Christian", and I fully agree with you that calling oneself a Christian does not make one a Christian. Faith is an entirely personal matter. It is just that this term has become too loose and too shallow to define anyhting specific. I simply don't know what it actually means anymore - and therefore prefer to describe myself simply as a follower of Christ (a very unsuccessful one, too!).

I do not mean that anyone should go around shouting, “I’m a Christian” or any other title, but when in discussion with people comprising atheists, agnostics, and other faiths, we identify views and beliefs as Christian, etc. And it is here that the term is quite meaningless for the reasons given above.

But please respond if you feel there are considerations I have ignored - it is always helpful to hear other's views, and I never tire of talking about Christ

Markus




Edited by - markus on 07/24/2002 03:13:11 AM

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If the first chapter of this book is so disputable, is the rest reliable? If I disregard the story of our origins in Genesis and accept modern science's findings of a natural procession to man, it's a short step over the precipice to a complete jettisoning of religion,

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This to me is not so much the work of a great photographer as a Master Artist, whose masterpiece is built up stage by stage, layer by layer, with pleasure and satisfaction at each stage along the way - how wonderful!

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For instance, just as God built the world layer by layer, stage by stage; God also works on each of us and guides each of us stage by stage. God will never be finished with the work to be accomplished in us until we go home. This stage by stage thing is magnificent because isn't it exciting when we have moved on in our journey and look back at where we were! Viewing our progress in Christ as a stage by stage journey takes some of the edge and pressure off of performing and helps to get a perspective on how each disciple of Christ is on a journey that is marked by stages of development.

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Thanks also for this revealing extension of the same theme, I hadn't thought of it in that way as well.

This reminded me of another analogy that I heard that described walking with Jesus as like climbing a mountain. It is often tough-going but as one continues climbing towards the peak, one can stop every now and again and turn to admire the view, which just reaches out further and further and is always more and more breathtaking.

I guess one could also add to this analogy, the problem described by Anewbeginning on another conversation topic, where God is often so hidden. Maybe that is when we are climbing through the cloud layers. Just because we cannot momentarily see much does not mean the scenery has gone away or doesn't exist, it is just screened for some reason. And maybe often that reason is to tell us to concentrate on our climbing technique and not the view - so as not to stumble when we come to tough and challenging climbs ahead of us.

You touch on a very important topic when you mention that we are all at different stages in our progress. I feel very strongly about this, and with the fact that we are often climbing the mountain along different routes. When we see these differences in others we should not immediately classify as to who is right or wrong. I feel these differences should be sources of fresh perspective and be greeted with enthusiasm and interest. We are always so ready to guard and defend our own position as the Ultimate Truth, but it can only ever be our Personal Truth Today.

I am sure whenever we look back as you describe, we can all see beliefs that we defended vigorously in the past that we have now changed or modified.

Of course, there are major issues where we feel it is crucial to defend a position (e.g. baptism at birth or not), but I think it is important to be able to thoroughly share all opinions without stepping over the red line of judgementalism.

Surely, it is whether all parties are genuine, sincere and authentic in their core faith in Christ that needs to be uniform at any one time - not our agreement over peripheral issues, which will all get sorted in time.

Thanks again for your reply, Brandi, you have helped me along my own journey

Markus



Edited by - markus on 07/30/2002 01:45:05 AM

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You touch on a very important topic when you mention that we are all at different stages in our progress. I feel very strongly about this, and with the fact that we are often climbing the mountain along different routes.

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