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borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 5/2/2003 3:40 PM (GMT -6)

I guess i didn't really know where to add this thread, but as i was scrolling through some old posts, i ran into someone who called themselves an "inclusivist". following this phrase, and i quote, "that those who have not heard the gospel will not be held accountable." i guess i'm rather bothered by such an idea. the first thing that popped into my head, is why in the world should we go about preaching the gospel. as this view is held by many on this sight, if people have the right to say "no" to God and therefore will go to hell, assuming there are no universalists, than why in the world risk it and go out and preach the Gospel. in other words, if you are only guilty after you hear the Gospel, than why in the world would God have ever revealed Himself to us? why did He make us guilty of sin, when He could have witheld all the Gospel and declared everyone innocent? if someone could shed some light on this i would appreciate it. i just think that if such a view is true, than i'm done sharing my faith and talking to non-Christians, so that i don't become responsible for opening their eyes to the Gospel and damning them to hell.
i hope someone will give me some feed back, cause i guess i must totally not be an inclusivist.
grace and peace,
borg

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/3/2003 8:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick (Matthew 9:12).

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For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead(1 Corinthians 15:21).

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The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8:6-7).

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For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear (Romans 8:13-15).

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because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. (Romans 6:7-14).

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Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men because all sinned, (Romans 5:12)

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For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned [/size=2]through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, a1so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 8:17-21).

For a NON-NIV translation, by a Professor of Theology at a Greek university, see: www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm

The problem is that there is death from the disease of sin, that WE brought into the Creation. God did not do this; WE did. And creation suffers for our sin and groans in waiting for its redemption.

THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION, BORG!

But, if you would share, why do you say that God MADE us sin? (Who in the tradition of the Church--not stray individuals--says that?)

The question, along with the one's you have raised, should, I think, be raised as this:

WHAT'S ALL THIS TALK OF JUDGEMENT?

I'd ask that besides the bad, that we also look at the BENIFITS of judgement. For instance: (1) Evil is cut short, in two ways. Had Adam and Eve not died they would have gotten "worse." And civizations not "judged" soon run rampant!

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The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:18-32).

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 05/03/2003 3:24:05 PM

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 5/3/2003 2:20 PM (GMT -6)

thanks for responding Potsonawheel, but i guess my question wasn't answered too well. my main question, and maybe i didn't do good enough of a job about it, was, "if we never heard the Gospel and we wouldn't be found guilty before God, than why in the world did God reveal the gospel to us in ANYTHING." i'm talking from an inclusivist view, and though i haven't heard that term too often, my understanding of it is, that people who haven't heard of the Gospel won't go to hell because they were ignorant. you bring up a good point in talking about Romans 1 where the creation basically speaks the Gospel. so from that standpoint, no one is not guilty, but guilty, even if they haven't heard of Jesus. so in the age old question about a man alone on a desert island from birth, if He didn't acknowldege God as God, than he is still guilty by the revelation of nature.
this question comes about from the thoughts of people like Pinnock who seem to elude to the idea that maybe Christ isn't the only way to God, if one has never heard of Christ.
when i say God "that God MADE us sin.." i simply meant doesn't it seem as though God is the cause for our damnation. if such a view as held by Pinnock that people who don't know of Christ won't be condemned, than isn't it God who has brought upon us damnation by revealing Christ and Himself to us? does this make sense? maybe my defintion of inclusivism is way wrong, but i thought this is how it is understood.

as to where i stand with God allowing us to sin, i believe i would side with the Supralapsarianism side, which summed up says that God created a world to with the main idea to redeem us. though my ignorance on this topic speaks more in my condemnation of such a view than in my defense.
grace and peace,
borg

"Not to me oh Lord, but to You be the Glory."

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 5/3/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6)

Hey borg,
I think that there has been some good discussion about an inclusive view of salvation on the thread "Am I really a Christian" that is in this section "Questions about Christianity." I think that a Christian inclusivist position would not say that someone who has not heard the gospel is innocent, but that every person will be judged according to what revelation they have received. All salvation comes from God's work in Christ.

Check out the "Am I really a Christian" thread; you'll get a better understanding of the inclusivist position...

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/3/2003 8:09 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
borg

"if we never heard the Gospel and we wouldn't be found guilty before God, than why in the world did God reveal the gospel to us in ANYTHING."

rossfadeinout seems to both not accept that AND also indicate that it does not fit with the definition of "inclucive" that he knows.

borg, I'm just going to say that I don't get to the "then why" part because I don't accept the "if" part. "Guilt" is ontological, not juridical. You asked: "so in the age old question about a man alone on a desert island from birth, if He didn't acknowldege God as God, than he is still guilty by the revelation of nature. " The REAL question is this: If the man spent enough decades on the island, WOULD HE DIE? Physically he would die. Spiritually he is dying too. That's not a "mean" judgement on God's part. Someone wrote that Hell is a prison locked from the inside. John 3 says:

quote:
18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

"He that believeth not" is "judged" by the "darkness" he "loves." He "hates the light." That is the prison he locks himself into.

So I think that we are foolish if we deny the reality of judgement.

Does anyone do that?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 5/5/2003 5:16 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
So I think that we are foolish if we deny the reality of judgement.

Does anyone do that?

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