 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | In my interactions with non-Christians, the failure of "Evangelical" Christians to develop habits of political reflection has been a stumbling block for them.
I blame our leaders, since they do not direct us that putting time and energy into such things can be glorifying to God.
They also tend to focus on vaguely defined concepts like "holiness", "love(Personal Relationships, not impersonal rules)" and the "center", all of which tend to emphasize the a-political, not political, nature of spiritual reality(which is what is most important for us Christians).
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW
quote:
In my interactions with non-Christians, the failure of "Evangelical" Christians to develop habits of political reflection has been a stumbling block for them.
I blame our leaders, since they do not direct us that putting time and energy into such things can be glorifying to God.
They also tend to focus on vaguely defined concepts like "holiness", "love(Personal Relationships, not impersonal rules)" and the "center", all of which tend to emphasize the a-political, not political, nature of spiritual reality(which is what is most important for us Christians).
Actually, evangelicals get hammered in the press for being too politically active. Maybe not politcally motivated in your preferred direction, though.
Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through? | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I am a social conservative and an economic liberal.
I believe these two are more complementary than being social and economic conservatives. Since economic liberals are such great champions of freedom of speech and libertarianism.
So yes I may have an underlying objective,
I think we do possess much political power, due to how we tend to vote more reliably than much of the rest of the population.
HOwever, my point has to do with habits of reflection and questioning of current political goals and strategies. Not with whether one votes Republican or Democrat.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW
quote:
I am a social conservative and an economic liberal.
That's interesting because I usually hear people say they're economically conservative and socially liberal. You believe government should "prime the pump" when it comes to the economy?
How does living in Mexico influence your view of socialistic government?
Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through? | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Exactly, economic conservatives do tend to be socially liberal.
I think that having rules that tend to increase gov't expenditures when the economy starts to drop is a good macro-policy.
I also think that gov't funding to fight poverty can be useful, since it gets over the problems associated with voluntarism and may be reliable in the long-run. Povery problems are long-run problems that require long-run answers.
I don't think Gov't is inherently more wasteful the Corporations(which tend to be functionally similar to Gov'ts and potentially quite wasteful as illustrated by Enron).
In Mexico, they have a program called Progresa where they redistribute money to the poor but in ways that encourage more education and better health-practices. It also tries to learn and adapt the ways it does it policies according to what works.
Much of the welfare we have had in our country has refused to learn and adapt in such a manner. Clearly, much of our country could have cared less whether the money we spent on the matter was actually working or not.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/22/2003 10:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Why are evangelicals so inept in general? Such a huge topic, so little time...
| | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/22/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why are evangelicals so inept in general? Such a huge topic, so little time...
We are but jars of clay or sheep easily led astray...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/22/2003 12:28 PM (GMT -6) | | I will say that one of the big reasons for my personal animosity against President Bush is that for people abroad, like in MX, he is the main exposure to Evangelical Christianity.
I don't want Evangelical Christianity to be aligned with the policies of any political leader. That is why autonomy between Church and State is so important to me.
It may interfere with the spread of the Gospel and renewal of Christian commitments, which a country like Mexico especially needs. So much of its problems stem from corruption, people not caring for others, accepting rules for how they drive and treat others.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/22/2003 2:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Here is a prediction:"You will be manipulated politically in the coming year so as to insure your vote for President Bush!"
That is but one of the things they're going to be spending all of that money he is currently raising on.
Numerically, social/religious conservatives easily outrank economic conservatives, though the the two are not mutually exclusive.
As such, they need our votes and how we relate to them will reflect on us with the rest of the country.
My answer is that we need to start developing more autonomy and inculcating habits of the importance of political reflection. How it and even activism can serve ultimately to glorify God and help the spread of the Gospel.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | I cannot muster personal animosity against people I don't personaly, though Michael Moore makes me want to.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/22/2003 8:09 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW: how is Bush unlike any of the other canditates running for office? You don't think they won't be speading their money on votes for themselves?
The only people who are maniqulated in the sense you are talking about are the ones that want to be.
Edited by - honorman on 05/23/2003 01:10:29 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/23/2003 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW: how is Bush unlike any of the other canditates running for office? You don't think they won't be speading their money on votes for themselves?
The only people who are maniqulated in the sense you are talking about are the ones that want to be.
If you are saying that self-interest plays a role in all of the agendas of candidates, I would agree. However, I think one can make distinctions.
Why do you think George Bush is so successful in raising so much money for his reelection? His social conservative views? Not really, he is quite supportive of the freedom of $peech. Abortion, PBA ban doesn't accomplish that much.
No, he has taken a narrow win and pursued a very aggressive economic conservative agenda and been successful, in part because of the popularity he gained after 9-11.
My simple point is that, while I believe there are some good Biblical reasons for being a social conservative, I think this is autonomous from economic conservatism and that the two often conflict. When the two conflict, as was the case with the debate over whether we perpetually renew the Most-Favored-Nation status of China and take away our stick we had to make China provide religious freedom, economic conservatives win hands down. The reason is that social conservatives are not being strategic in how they use their political capital.
To avoid manipulation, one must understand certain facts about politics.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/23/2003 8:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I think that the role of money is pervasive in affecting the positions that politicians take and what their priorities are.
Clearly, all politicians are affected by this. The difference lies in how much money they are getting. Clearly, one is better recompensed for lobbying for the repeal of the estate taxes(the tax that affects only very rich individuals and the wealth they leave to their families upon dying) than for lobbying against increasing the work-requirements of welfare recipients.
Helping moneyed interests retain or gain more influence is always a lucrative endeavor and the amount raised for reelection does matter. It does increase their ability to manipulate voters.
There is a good paper that shows how states in the US that have caps on personal or corporation donations to politicians do tend to have more competitive elections(I.e., the probability of an incumbent being reelected is lower.).
One fact worthy of note, is that the more politicians can take voter supports for granted, the more they can indulge in serving moneyed interests for a price. As such, the single-mindedness with which evangelicals have pursued repealing Roe-V-Wade has been instrumental in increasing corruption or the influence of moneyed interests in the US political system(See the abortion thread for my ideas on what alternative political possibilities there are for us re:Abortion.).
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/23/2003 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW: I think your personal animosity towards Bush is clouding your mind. If you don't think ANY president would not captilize on what he did right after 9/11 in order to get reelected, then I truly believe you do not understand politics. And I don't see anything wrong with using popularity when you have done well in one area in order to ensure your reelection. But then again, I don't have any "personal animosity" towards anyone (isn't there something in the scriptures about such a condiction?).
| | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/24/2003 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW: I think your personal animosity towards Bush is clouding your mind. If you don't think ANY president would not captilize on what he did right after 9/11 in order to get reelected, then I truly believe you do not understand politics. And I don't see anything wrong with using popularity when you have done well in one area in order to ensure your reelection. But then again, I don't have any "personal animosity" towards anyone (isn't there something in the scriptures about such a condiction?).
George Bush didn't necessarily "do well" after 9/11. How did he react any differently than Al Gore would have done? My point is that he ran as a "compassionate conservative" has gone back on several of his campaign pledges and spent the vast majority of his political capital on a very aggressive economic conservative strategy. Normally, in the US, when you barely get elected, you pursue a moderate course. Pres. Bush did not do this and has been able to get away with it because of the popularity he has gained due to being the president during 9/11.
I already listed earlier some of my reasons for my animosity.
So you would agree with me that Bush's legislative priorities have by far been with economic conservative objectives? If you are an economic conservative then there is less point in us debating, but my point, as stands before, is that Evangelicals do not spend enough time following and reflecting on politics and as such are easily manipulated by their leaders into thinking that certain political actions are a-political, which has led to group-think with economic conservatives benefitting.
Did you know Ronald Reagan never gave a single speech for ending abortion? He did admit to a group of Evangelicals that he had had a salvation experience, but then again as an actor, who would know if he was telling the truth, or just manipulating others for their votes?
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/24/2003 12:36:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/24/2003 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Actually, I think he did very well after 9/11 so I am not willing to concede you that point.
I think ALL people do not spend enough time reflecting politically. Thats why so many actors are taken seriously.
Personally, I hope Bush "gets away," with as much as he can. Again, I have no problem with someone using their popularity to further something they believe to be right, regardless of whether or not they got elected by a slim majority or not.
Your comment on Reagan is more of a reflection on your own cynicism towards conservatives (or maybe politicans in general) than anything Reagan did or didn't say.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/24/2003 2:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Actually, I think he did very well after 9/11 so I am not willing to concede you that point.
Yes, but what did he do that another politician could have done? He reacted to 9-11 in the same manner that most of us did. The man is an able administrator with a competent staff and he has very good inter-personal skills, speaks well and with conviction.
quote:
I think ALL people do not spend enough time reflecting politically. Thats why so many actors are taken seriously.
Some of us need to spend more time reflecting on how to improve our interpersonal skills... . I mean, there are some concrete differences between those that follow politics and are informed and those that aren't. So I think saying ALL people may obfuscate this real difference between peoples.
quote:
Personally, I hope Bush "gets away," with as much as he can. Again, I have no problem with someone using their popularity to further something they believe to be right, regardless of whether or not they got elected by a slim majority or not.
Yes, but in a democracy we do have competing notions of what is right and if one was only narrowly elected, that means that a majority of the people who vote thought your notions of what was right were wrong. So no, it is not right to pursue an extreme ideological agenda and if it weren't for Bush's luck to be in the presidency when 9-11 happened he wouldn't have gotten away with as much as he has..
quote:
Your comment on Reagan is more of a reflection on your own cynicism towards conservatives (or maybe politicans in general) than anything Reagan did or didn't say.
It is true. He never spent one whit of his political capital on trying to stop abortions. The focus of his presidency was on economic conservative issues, but we elected and reelected him anyways.
That is manipulation... . I am just relating the facts that we are being manipulated and we need to change our habits regarding how we relate to politics so that we can be more informed in who we support. This matters because much of the world is focused on such issues and our apathy regarding them may serve as a block to being able to share with them the Gospel.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/31/2003 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | This is taken from Yesterday's Lehrer NewHour
RAY SUAREZ: That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields and David Brooks of The Weekly Standard. Mark, the president is in Poland over-nighting in Krakow. He'll stop by old Europe and new Europe on this trip. Fence mending?
The president's visit to Europe
MARK SHIELDS: Fence mending. I think the president understands that we have a lot of fences to mend. I just saw an Ipsos-Reed Poll, an international poll, a very respected organization, done this week, that showed by a margin of three to two, the English and the Canadians think that President Bush is a negative influence in world affairs and the European countries on the main continent of Spain and Germany and France, margins of five to one. So he is the United States, and there is, I think, mending of fences to be done.
DLW:My point, as made before, is that GB is representing Evangelical Christianity to the rest of the world and doing a rather good job of it... . This is why I think working hard to cultivate better habits of political reflection is important so as to ensure we will be more autonomous in how we use our political-say-so in this world.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/4/2003 4:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Taken from today's Prism E-pistle...
1.WORKING POOR DROPPED FROM TAX CUT AT LAST MINUTE,
by Ron Sider.
Guess who lost their tax cut? The working poor and
their children.
At the very last minute - in the House Conference
Committee - 11.9 million poor children lost $3.5
billion while the 200,000 households earning over $1
million per year got about $90 billion in tax cuts.
The tax bill just passed included increasing the
child tax credit from $600 to $1000. As a result
middle- and upper-income families will get a check
in July for $400 per child. But not poor working
families. Because of this last minute decision, 11.9
million poor children in working families with
incomes from $10,500-$26, 625 lost their $3.5
billion. Why? To keep the total tax cut package to
$350 billion.
Of course, there would have been other ways to save
this $3.5 billion for the working poor. Reducing the
capital gains/dividend tax cut (which goes mostly to
the richest 15%) just a little less - by a mere 2.3%
- would have preserved the $3.5 billion for the
working poor. This tax cut goes overwhelmingly to
the rich.
Don't be deceived by statements that "91 million tax
payers will receive, on average, a tax cut of
$1,126" (Treasury Department). The tiny group
(one-fifth of a million) of people who make over $1
million a year get an average tax break of $93,500
from this bill. On the other hand, the average tax
cut for households in the middle fifth of all
households is a mere $217 - and 53% of all
households (73 million) get less than $100!
When he signed the bill, the president said that 12
million elderly tax filers would receive an average
tax cut of $1401. But the elderly rich get most of
it. Sixty-three percent of the elderly get less than
$100.
The full tragedy - and moral outrage - of all this
becomes clearer in the context of developments over
a longer time frame. Consider the following:
> American society today is more unequal than at any
time in decades - and more unequal than all other
industrialized nations.
> According to BUSINESS WEEK Magazine, the ratio
between the pay of CEOs in our 365 largest companies
and the average pay of their workers was 42- to-1 in
1980. Now it is 500-to-1!
> Poverty in the United States is growing; it grew
by 1.3 million in 2001 and will almost certainly
grow more in 2003. But because of ballooning federal
deficits, Bush is cutting most of programs for the
poor while giving more huge tax cuts for the rich.
None of us likes taxes, but they sometimes pay for
good things. Federal Pell grants pay college
expenses for children from poorer families so they
can work hard to gain skills to escape poverty, but
their value keeps dropping. In 1965, Pell grants
covered 85% of the cost of four years at a public
university; in 2000, they covered only 39%. If we
want more Pell grants for poor college kids, a
living wage for all who work responsibly, and health
coverage and social security for everyone, we cannot
keep cutting taxes. And contrary to what many
believe, a median family of four in 2001 paid a
smaller share of their income in federal income
taxes than at any year since 1957.
President Bush claims to care about the poor, and I
believe his faith-based initiative offers an
historic opportunity to empower the needy. However,
the poor need both effective faith-based social
services and fair economic structures. They need a
living wage, health insurance, educational
opportunity and social security - and all that costs
tax dollars that are rapidly disappearing as Bush
gives one huge tax cut after another to a rich, tiny
minority.
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/7/2003 11:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is a quote from a biography of Reagan that I took down once, but neglected to cite the source. It describes how Reagan finessed social conservative issues that didn't fit with his economic conservative libertarian world-view..
When he was compiling Reagan's radio addresses for publication, Martin Anderson found himself wondering how often Reagan had discussed abortion. He searched 1,044 scripts and found exactly one speech on the subject. In it, Reagan justified abortion to protect the health of the mother or in cases of rape, thus falling well short of the right-to-life hard line. As governor, he signed one of the most liberal state abortion laws, and as president he did little directly to challenge the essentially permissive state of American law.
Yet Reagan was always treated by the anti-abortion constituency as a kindred spirit. This is another Reagan lesson Bush seems to have taken on board: if you have underlying credibility with the advocacy groups, you do not have to undertake quixotic efforts on their behalf.
Friends say that on abortion, gay rights, school prayer and other culture-war issues, Reagan's sympathy for the religious right bumped up against his hands-off view of government, and against his reading of the public mood. Bush, like Reagan, understands that Americans like a good example, but they won't abide a scold. He has thus managed to champion both ''traditional'' values and ''inclusiveness,'' and when the two are hard to reconcile -- on gay rights, for instance -- he avoids the issue.
Note: credibility or being vaguely for an issue doesn't translate into spending your political capital into making legal changes on the issues a reality.
This illustrates why an uncritical acceptance of the categories of conservative and liberal have tended to lead to the manipulation of social conservatives into selling their votes for far less than they are worth.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/7/2003 2:12 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW
When he was compiling Reagan's radio addresses for publication, Martin Anderson found himself wondering how often Reagan had discussed abortion. He searched 1,044 scripts and found exactly one speech on the subject. In it, Reagan justified abortion to protect the health of the mother or in cases of rape, thus falling well short of the right-to-life hard line. As governor, he signed one of the most liberal state abortion laws, and as president he did little directly to challenge the essentially permissive state of American law.
Yet Reagan was always treated by the anti-abortion constituency as a kindred spirit. This is another Reagan lesson Bush seems to have taken on board: if you have underlying credibility with the advocacy groups, you do not have to undertake quixotic efforts on their behalf.
Friends say that on abortion, gay rights, school prayer and other culture-war issues, Reagan's sympathy for the religious right bumped up against his hands-off view of government, and against his reading of the public mood. Bush, like Reagan, understands that Americans like a good example, but they won't abide a scold. He has thus managed to champion both ''traditional'' values and ''inclusiveness,'' and when the two are hard to reconcile -- on gay rights, for instance -- he avoids the issue.
You are too young.
Reagan addressed abortion AS PRESIDENT on TV. He embraced that such a death was a death AND that it merited grieving. I saw it on TV. | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/7/2003 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/8/2003 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | manipulation.
It is one thing to say something on tv to your potential voters, another thing to spend your say-so on capitol hill to actually make a change in the rules.
Reagan and other pro-lifers have been murderous in their inability to be pragmatic over the last 20 plus years, resulting in next to no change taking place in abortion laws after an incredible amount of political activism.
Its time for a change...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/8/2003 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW, you really need to do your research without the aniomosity (misspell) towards those you disagree with. It is totally clouding your judgment...
| | Back to Top | | |
|
DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/9/2003 6:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Honordude, I could take your response more seriously if you backed up your statements.
If you are at root saying that it involves judgment and you would judge differently. I guess I can't dispute that, but because of my training, I do like to focus on the facts. The predominant role of economics in many political dealings is a fact that goes beyond me and my own judgement.
As I see it, we social conservatives have been having the wool pulled over our eyes and I would like to see things change. But that requires for us to act with more autonomy from the Republican Party.
In 1999, when John McCain was running against GWB in the Repub Primaries, pro-lifers supported GWB in the N.Carolina primaries even though McCain has a near perfect abortion record. Why? He was for CFR which would put restrictions on pro-life lobbyists ability to sway legislators with contributions.
Our leaders are being coopted. They are not acting with autonomy from the current leadership of the Republican Party. I can go on with concrete examples if you wish...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
| 41 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 12:50 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|