 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Theodore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 3/3/2003 7:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | A very relevant quote from another forum:
"In response to the following:>> One of the most unpleasant things about the Gay rights debate is that the Gay community is generally insulting and condescending when confronted with opposing points of view. >>
Oh, good grief. Give me a break. In another section of this forum,
there's a fellow saying that he thinks that Leviticus 20:13 should be
written into law, so that gay people can be executed for the crime of
homosexual behavior. Recently, in another forum, an attack team of
fundamentalists posted over a thousand messages in a three day period.
In those messages, which they claimed represented God's will, they
called homosexuals sick, sinful, deviant, disgusting, distasteful,
degenerate, despicable, abominations. They compared gay people to
alcoholics, child molestors, kleptomaniacs, murderers, thieves,
adulterers, necrophiles, people who commit incest, and people who have
sex with animals. They pointed out that being gay was a choice, a
birth defect, a genetic disorder, a mental defect, mental illness,
emotional retardation, the result of sexual abuse, the result of drug
use, the result of a distant father, the result of a dominant mother,
the result of a liberal attack on the traditional family values, and
(I am not making this up) the result of the fluoridation of our
drinking water.
They blamed homosexuals for spreading AIDS, for moral
decay, for creating the satanist "new age" philosophy, for attempting
to assassinate the Pope, for trying to force a degenerate lifestyle
down the throats of Americans, for trying to recruit little children,
and for perverting the meaning of the bible.
They accused gay people of trying to rewrite the bible, of being
communist activists, of smelling bad (because they don't wash
their hands after fisting), and of sticking rodents up their rectums.
They blamed gay people for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah,
the fall of Rome, and the sinking of Atlantis. (No, I am not making
this up.)
They threatened gay people with eternal hellfire and damnation, they threatened America with God's wrath, including tornadoes, hurricanes, and a liberal congress.
There was a lot more. Gay people have to put up with this kind of crap from
so-called Christians every day of their lives. Gay people are expected
to be patient little saints who behave themselves all the time while
straight people demonstrate their moral and emotional superiority -- by
beating gay people to death at the rate of one every eleven days, by
making gay men and lesbians the single largest target of hate-motivated
assaults in the United States. And then, just to make sure that gay
people understand not to take it personally, these self-same
God-fearing Christians are quick to say: "Don't blame me. I'm just
telling you what God says. God hates the sin, he loves the sinner."
(That's nice. So the sins go to hell and the rest of us go to heaven?)
And when gay people say, "Hey, look, all I want is equal protection
under the law," these self-same good Christians tell us, "You already
have equal rights, you're asking for special rights." (Be specific,
please tell me what special rights I have?)
And when we finally, finally, finally after years and years and years of this kind of crap,actually take a moment to confront it -- we get told that we're the
bigoted ones, that we have no tolerance for an opposing point of view.
Excuse me? Just what IS your opposing point of view? That I sank
Atlantis? That I smell bad? That I stick rodents up my rectum? Is that
your opposing point of view? Would you say a Jew is intolerant because
he doesn't consider the Nazi philosophy "an opposing point of view?"
Would you say a black man is intolerant because he's tired of listening
to the Klan represent racism as "an opposing point of view?" Would you
tell a woman who has been raped that her rapist is entitled to "an
opposing point of view?" What you are arguing for is NOT an opposing
point of view. What you are arguing for is the right to have bigotry
treated with a respect that it should never be given in a rational
society.
Copyright December 22, 2000, by dg. All rights reserved,
except that free distribution via any medium is permitted as long as
author's credit is given and no profit is involved.
Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 3/3/2003 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Theodore. Welcome to our discussion.
quote:
Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
Whether gay or straight we follow Christ because of Christ (who he is and what he has done). I think you will find more helpful answers (helpful in the sense of answering why they personally have chosen to follow Christ in spite of the hostility they experience from Christians) if you address your question to gay Christians. Blessings, Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky
Edited by - Electra on 03/03/2003 2:20:36 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 3/3/2003 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, Theodore, for sharing that quote. Many of those same accusations against homosexuals have appeared in this very forum, and I feel the same way about them as does the person you quote. It is discouraging, and frustrating, and maddening, and quite heartbreaking when one thinks of the impact these constant accusations have on the gay people whom we love.
Theodore:
Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
Electra:
I think you will find more helpful answers (helpful in the sense of answering why they personally have chosen to follow Christ in spite of the hostility they experience from Christians) if you address your question to gay Christians.
Semeia:
I think it is a fair question to ask ALL Christians, since presumably Christians care about spreading the good news. I think the question itself calls out in us the deep damage that Christian bigotry has done to gays, driving them away from what we know is the very source of life. It is a failure to love of enormous magnitude, at huge cost. Let the question ring out and DEMAND an answer:
Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/3/2003 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | 1st off, there are no gay Christians, because someone who truly knew God would know homosexuality is a sin and therefore would want to please God and would not do what was pleasing to God. Therefore, Electra, since there is no such thing, so there wouldn't be anyone to contact and
2nd, if I wasn't a Christian and the only place I got my idea about Christians was from this bulletin board and how you people see Christians I would never want to be one. Do you guys know any Christians that don't fit the "stereotypical" evil judgmental Christian who walks around condemning everyone in sight? I am beginning to think you people are all a figment of your imaginations. Do you guys all sit around bemoaning the preceived "evils" of the church? Don't you guys have anything better to do?
I would ask the homosexual asking the question if he has seen fit to actually talk to a wide variety of Christians? I would wonder if this person has even truly met any Christians. I can tell you this: I have never meant any of the Christians you guys seem to believe represent the church. The Christians I know love. Perhaps you guys should try and find some...
by the way, that person should check up on his statistics. At the present time, hates crimes against white males collectively outweigh all others...but then that is a statistic that isn't worth mentioning I suppose...
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 3/3/2003 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Semeia:
I think it is a fair question to ask ALL Christians, since presumably Christians care about spreading the good news. I think the question itself calls out in us the deep damage that Christian bigotry has done to gays, driving them away from what we know is the very source of life. It is a failure to love of enormous magnitude, at huge cost. Let the question ring out and DEMAND an answer:
Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
Theodore and Semeia, I’m sorry if my response implied your question is unfair or if it seemed like an attempt to get some straight Christians off the hook for the way they have treated gay people. I too grieve when others are made to stumble (2 Cor. 11:29) and I trust that the Lord will judge those who cause others to stumble (Luke 17:1–2). The question is important for all Christians to wrestle with and provides an opportunity for us to search our hearts and see if we have caused anyone to stumble.
But I want to encourage gay people not to let bigots interfere with your decision to follow Christ—though they make try to take it, don’t give them that much credit. I want to be sure that authority is granted where it is warranted: The people who are in the best position to answer the question, “Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?” are homosexual Christians themselves. And so (without getting myself off the hook of searching my own heart), I humbly refer you to gay people who have chosen to follow Christ in spite of bigoted straight Christians as you seek an answer to this important question.
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
|
BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 3/3/2003 12:06 PM (GMT -6) | | HonorDad: quote:
1st off, there are no gay Christians, because someone who truly knew God would know homosexuality is a sin and therefore would want to please God and would not do what was pleasing to God.
Well, HonorDad, against my better judgment, I am actually going to respond to this. You say -- with a degree of divine omniscience that no believer I know would claim to possess -- that "there are no gay Christians." You support this statement by reasoning that no real Christian would would sin because they know it is not pleasing to God.
I have difficulty believing that you are serious here. Are you a Christian, HonorDad? And if so, are you claiming that you never sin? That you never do anything that you know is not pleasing to God?
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
|
shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 3/3/2003 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Theodore, thank you for sharing that piece. I feel so much for that writer...because I too have taken so much to heart even on this very board on behalf of the gay people in my life that I love and on behalf of many that may be reading as an audience. Reading this board lately has been a painful experience. Reading what that writer wrote is painful as well.
quote:
Semeia:
I think it is a fair question to ask ALL Christians, since presumably Christians care about spreading the good news. I think the question itself calls out in us the deep damage that Christian bigotry has done to gays, driving them away from what we know is the very source of life. It is a failure to love of enormous magnitude, at huge cost. Let the question ring out and DEMAND an answer:
Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
Thanks,
Semeia
Shell: Amen Semeia. That is definitely a question for ALL believers.
Christians as a whole need to look deep into our hearts for the biases and attitudes that harm others. Each of us need to decide within our hearts how we intend to respond about this issue. Christians make judgemental, rude and unloving comments about gays very frequently. I hear them probably three times a month because I am sensitized to the issue and it hurts me. But how many Christians participate in those comments or hear them and think nothing of it? Biases and judgement, and hurtful statements against homosexuals are by and large acceptable within the Christian community, even applauded if it's Dr. Dobson saying it. Those who want to argue that they just want to do the "right" thing by pointing out a gay person's sin should just try for a period of a few months to sensitize themselves to the statements made by Christians. Are they loving? Do they really have the gay person's best interests in mind? What if a gay person was nearby and overheard the conversation? What if a gay person visited your church, went to a small group? More likely than not we don't even know when this happens.
Discussions like on the "questions" thread drive me nuts because they are always the same. Someone feels compelled to point out the "sin" of homosexuality to someone. Tell them something they don't already know about what Christians think! Be jesus with skin on to them, help the walls fall down, let the holy spirit soften hearts, feel personally responsible for showing this person jesus's love.
Shell
Edited by - shell on 03/03/2003 5:47:59 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/3/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Semeia: Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
------------------------------------
Shell: Amen Semeia. That is definitely a question for ALL believers.
The REAL question is this: Why would any PERSON want to be a Christian?
Its the SAME question for ALL people, "gay" or "straight."
Why would anyone want to be a Christian?
__________________________________________________
Bonhoeffer: When Christ calls a man he bids him "Come and die." | | Back to Top | | |
|
shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 3/3/2003 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Shell: Electra, I saw your last post after I had already posted(I was writing while you posted). I understood what you were saying...
Shell
| | Back to Top | | |
|
shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 3/3/2003 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | POW:
The REAL question is this: Why would any PERSON want to be a Christian?
Its the SAME question for ALL people, "gay" or "straight."
Why would anyone want to be a Christian?
Shell: It is true, we should be concerned how we represent Christ's love to all people...but I think the point being made here is like asking a person of color why would they want to join the Ku Klux Klan. That is how many Christians have represented Christ to the homosexual population. In that respect I think it is different.
Shell
Edited by - shell on 03/03/2003 5:37:35 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Theodore
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 3/3/2003 2:04 PM (GMT -6) | | After reading this forum, I guess I just hoped that by posting that quote, some people might begin to understand what it feels like to be gay with all the hatred and accusations that come against gays constantly, all the time. And what drives it all are morally superior Christians. They are the main force. And so I don't understand why any gay person would be drawn to Christianity when this is the case and I wish that maybe some of the people who speak so glibly and toss out such hurtful accusations here and elsewhere would think twice. And I don't know any gay christians because the people I know were practically run out of the church after they admitted to their homosexuality.
The funny thing is, the devil's arms are always "open" to people, unlike the closed arms of the church. In order to be welcome in church people have to change who they are, but the devil takes all kinds.
I mean, who would want to be apart of any group who says that by definition, who you are is evil?
Edited by - Theodore on 03/03/2003 7:09:15 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/3/2003 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Shell, you quoted me, but then really, really missed the point being made. The point was there, and it was also summarized in the quote at the bottom.
quote:
Bonhoeffer: When Christ calls a man he bids him "Come and die."
Look at this: Why would anyone want to be a Christian?
What does it cost ANYONE to be a Christian. Bonhoeffer answers the question. That is why I said: Its the SAME question for ALL people, "gay" or "straight." See?
And it then comes down to what else I said.
quote:
The REAL question is this: Why would any PERSON want to be a Christian?
What makes death worth it? (Ask Bonhoeffer.) What does that death mean?
Shell, you wrote: we should be concerned how we represent Christ's love to all people.
Perhaps we should consider the reality of "counting the cost" and shedding notions of "cheep grace" (Read Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship.") and not urging the same on others. Revivalist conversions are quick, and "cheep."
True conversions are irrespective of what sins come along with it. No sin is better and no sin is worse. And it is not the sin that is converted; it is the person.
As to what Theodore observed, that it is Christians that hate, that is narrow. That may be what irks. But it does not begin to scratch the surface of prejudices "out there." My experience growing up was that it was those who had committed their lives to Christ that were tollerant -- by looking at the person through Christ's eyes -- and the worldly minded that were biggots.
The "moral superior-ity" is found in many camps. Many, many, many. It comes in many forms, shapes, styles, motives.
The ONLY way away from "moral superior-ity" is death. And that is not cheep. To consider other people as greater than yourself is made possible ONLY by the Spirit of Christ. Burried in Baptism.
"Shall we gather at the River?" | | Back to Top | | |
|
Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 3/3/2003 6:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Theodore,
On this board, you will find people who are sympathetic with gays and you will also find people who are antagonistic.
You mentioned the devil’s “open arms.” The only reason the devil’s arms would be open is to hold people as far apart as possible. Here is one of the devil’s favorite deceptions and most effective means of division: We all tend to focus on examples that confirm our own pre-conclusions. For example, people who condemn gays tend to point to deeply disturbed individuals who also happen to be homosexual and say, “See, this is what all gay people are like!” It is very unfair to gay people to characterize them all according to isolated examples of truly disturbed people. To do so is to believe a lie. It is also possible to point to Christians who are bigoted and abusive toward gay people and say, “See, this is what all Christians are like!” This is also to believe a lie. It is not fair to Christians, especially gay Christians. If you have real or imagined distrust toward another group of people, whether gays or Christians, the devil will feed you with all kinds of examples to confirm your suspicion.
I don’t pretend to have experienced any degree of the abuse gay people have suffered, but I have been accused of not being a Christian—by other Christians. If they don’t have the power to save me—and I don’t see any of them climbing up on a cross for me—they can’t condemn me either. To believe such an accusation would be to grant them more authority than Christ. The truth is, Jesus’ invitation is offered to everyone. Like I said above, in this discussion you will find people who are sympathetic and antagonistic toward your question. But you don’t have to take either side at their word—you can find Christ for yourself. God is faithful, and if you seek, you will find.
I’m sorry to hear about all the gay Christians you know who have been run out of church. If you do a simple search for GBLT-affirming churches in New York City (or wherever you’re from) I’m sure you will discover Christians who would gladly embrace them.
Blessings,
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
|
Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/4/2003 1:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Theodore,
Thanks for the post,
Contending against, being antagonistic or opposing in combat, the temptation to sin in my own life is difficult enough, however, ‘Forbidden Sexual Practices’ are addressed in the Bible and should not in my mind be entirely ignored by any Christian, especially if they are the one’s committing them.
"The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the LORD God gave him this warning…"
And are there any warnings in the Bible against homosexuality, any worth a Christian’s consideration, this has been the debate for the most part, which I have had on this forum, and of course, the unfortunate attacks on one another’s character, for their held position has occurred.
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity... | | Back to Top | | |
|
Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 3/4/2003 7:01 AM (GMT -6) | | I just realized that I may have contradicted myself. I claimed that I did not wish to imply that Theordore’s question was unfair. Then in the next post I talked about unfair ways of characterizing gay people and Christians (namely by reducing all gays or Christians to the most injured and injuring exceptions). I hope that this point does not nullify the sincerity of my first point. It is entirely fair to challenge us to reflect on why a homosexual person would want to be a Christian.
Theodore: After reading this forum, I guess I just hoped that by posting that quote, some people might begin to understand what it feels like to be gay with all the hatred and accusations that come against gays constantly, all the time.
Electra: Me too.
Theodore: And what drives it all are morally superior Christians. They are the main force.
Electra: Don’t give them that much credit. Though gay people are their target, their actions will eventually result in their own destruction if they do not repent. Though these Christians may convince people that they are a “main force,” they are the most desperate people of all.
Theodore: And so I don't understand why any gay person would be drawn to Christianity when this is the case…
Electra: Jesus has many parables about people who were offended by who the Father chose to include in the kingdom. There is no limit to his love. His arms reach around the world and are open wide enough to include gays and bigots who come to him. I cannot speak for gay Christians, but I encourage you to seek some out and find out from them why they chose to follow Christ.
Theodore: …and I wish that maybe some of the people who speak so glibly and toss out such hurtful accusations here and elsewhere would think twice.
Electra: Me too—for the sake of the gay people and for their own sake.
Theodore: …In order to be welcome in church people have to change who they are, but the devil takes all kinds.
Electra: Do you think that when the devil takes a person he doesn’t change who they are? The devil will do whatever he can to degrade people into shadows of themselves—to injure people and incite them to injure others. Don’t believe him for a second. It is unfortunate when churches require changes of some people before they will welcome them. Churches should be like the men who punched a hole in the roof in order to bring their paralyzed friend to Jesus. Whatever it takes, our job is to bring people to Jesus, who welcomed all—but Jesus also changed all who accepted his invitation. No disciple of Jesus was left unchanged.
Theodore: I mean, who would want to be apart of any group who says that by definition, who you are is evil?
Electra: No one.
Blessings,
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/4/2003 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Electra: There is no limit to his love. His arms reach around the world and are open wide enough to include gays and bigots who come to him.
AMEN!
quote:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
THAT'S THE CENTER OF EVERYTHING.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 03/04/2003 2:11:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/6/2003 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | There is a great deal of difference between sinning and believing that sin is justified in the eyes of God. Think about this very slowly Brett . If you have read me before you'll get my drift. But for you I will reexplain myself.
There are no gay Christians just as there are no adulterous Christians because if a person TRULY (don't forget that word) believes that such a thing is right in the eyes of God than they do not know God. There are no Christian liars, adulterers or thieves. They may commit these sins but they know that such sins are wrong in the eyes of God. There may be Christians who struggle with homosexuality, but there are no "gay" Christians because saying that a Christian is gay implies that that is how God would have them be.
As far as whether or not I am a Christian, that is between me and God and from your words I certainly am not going to convince you (nor do I wish to wish to). Suffice to say that if in disgreeing with you I am not a Christian, I don't have a problem with that... 
Edited by - honorman on 03/06/2003 2:48:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/7/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman
There are no gay Christians just as there are no adulterous Christians because if a person TRULY (don't forget that word) believes that such a thing is right in the eyes of God than they do not know God. There are no Christian liars, adulterers or thieves.
Iconoclast
In other words, to be gay is the same as being adulterous or being a liar or being a thief.
Theodore
What you are arguing for is NOT an opposing
point of view. What you are arguing for is the right to have bigotry
treated with a respect that it should never be given in a rational
society.
Iconoclast
Sometimes I just think we should pause and thank God that the founding fathers of America had the good sense to separate Church and State. Just imagine what it would be like if Jerry Falwell was in charge.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/7/2003 3:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
honorman
There are no gay Christians just as there are no adulterous Christians because if a person TRULY (don't forget that word) believes that such a thing is right in the eyes of God than they do not know God. There are no Christian liars, adulterers or thieves.
Iconoclast
In other words, to be gay is the same as being adulterous or being a liar or being a thief.
Sometimes "in other words" means "I'm just not going to try."
Honorman rather clearly states that to "TRULY" believe that sin is right in the eyes of God is to not know God. He does not distinguish one sin from another in that regard.
I do't understand Icon's meaning when he says: "to be gay is the same as being adulterous or being a liar or being a thief." What's he trying to imply. Part of the problem is a lack of consistent parallelism in what Icon wrote.
When Honorman wrote "no gay Christians" he was NOT saying that no Christians are tempted by those of the same sex, and neither was he saying that none tempted by those of the same sex are Christians. In saying "no gay Christians" Honorman was talking about the ACTION and not the temptation. This distinction should be clear.
But Idon's rejoiner listed persons and not actions: "adulterous, liar, thief." Perhaps that difference is what adds to my confusion.
Honorman, it seems to me, was saying that homosexual sin, theft, adultry, and false testemony are ALL sins. And upon that he built his thesis that to walk in sin is not not "know" God.
The opposite of this is to "Walk in newness of life." And Honorman clearly lays out that holding onto homosexual practice is to pull away from this knowledge of God.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/7/2003 7:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you POW. I could not have said it better myself.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/8/2003 4:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
honorman:
Thank you POW. I could not have said it better myself.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/8/2003 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | POW and honorman, it is really good to finally see you two getting along. I am just happy that I was able to play a part in bringing you together.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
|
jhodgeiii
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 3/15/2003 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | This topic died days ago, but I must rebuke some of my brothers and sisters in this thread...
STOP PUFFING YOURSELF UP by trying to be nicer than God so that you could be better accepted by society. It's very clear in the Bible how God feels about homosexuals. VERY CLEAR. It is to be understood, however, that God's grace extends to the repentant homosexual, just like it did to me, the repentant, formerly wicked sinner.
My gripe is that some feel that calling homosexuality deviant, abominable, punishable by death, etc. is "un-Christian." What? The Bible can call homosexuality abominable and "punishable by death," but we Christians can't???
Believing that being nice and sugary sweet to sinners is misguided and destructive. It takes away from the severity of the sin. It makes people more apathetic and tolerant of sin. We need homosexuality to be re-criminalized. We need homosexuality to be publicly despised. If not, will not the sin abound and more be condemned to hell? If you disagree, how else could we end up with a society filled with homosexual churches? And by the way, how do you think the apostle Paul would react if he returned to Corinth to find a homosexual church? With kindness or judgment?
Lastly, the fact that there is gay-bashing is abominable also, but this is NOT OUR FAULT. The fault lies with the gay-bashers so don't let that argument cast guilt upon you.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
SeanG
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/16/2003 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Before I comment on some things, just because I couldn’t believe some of what I read, I wish to first respond to honorman. This may be the first time I have disagreed with you on an issue of such a religio-political nature. I wish to say that if a homosexual comes to know God, that person may fall into – or struggle – with their addiction that they have had for many a year. Alcoholics and other addiction of the sort, fall into their old ways before finally finding that part in their faith or relationship to beat their addiction… with the help of the Holy Spirit. Remember, it [homosexuality] is much like a obsessive-compulsive disorder (or, compulsive personality disorder), and has its roots in trying to make up for something they are lacking (which most of the time is some sort of family dysfunction). This type of disorder, which was the diagnosis for many, many homosexuals before it became politically incorrect to treat them (and may I say, cure them) for such. Josh McDowell’s, in his audio book, More Than A Carpenter, comments on the type of road it took him to finally beat his skepticism and fall in line with what God wanted for his life. Whereas his dad was healed overnight of alcoholism and was on the straight and narrow from the start. I too have struggled and backslid with my wrong thinking that for many, many years I had become accustomed too. It takes a daily dose of the Holy Spirit to keep my mind on track. My main point is---Homosexuality is a sin like any other sin. It is no worse than the sin of murder ,adultery, or lying. If you are a gossip, you are as sinful as a Gay person. It is sin and needs to be forgiven and overcome like any other sin.
So there is no room for Christians to be self - righteous about this. We are all sinners with our own weaknesses. What is a battle for some is not a battle for others. Therefore compassion is our guide.
We should be as Jesus was to the woman who was caught in adultery. We should not be the first to cast the stone, but keep in mind that he said, " Go and sin no more". So there is that which is sin, and that which is not. We should be ready and willing to call sin what it is -wrong.
We must be ready to call all sin wrong and not be afraid to stick to it. It is wrong to covet. It is wrong to hate your brother. It is wrong to steal. It is wrong to have idols. It is wrong not to rest in God's Sabbath. It is wrong to fornicate. It is wrong to gossip. It is wrong to curse a brother. It is wrong not to love God. It is wrong to participate in homosexual acts. It is wrong to participate in sex outside of marriage........
http://www.geocities.com/wellesley/5953/gay.html You know I say this in love and respect honorman, and always keep in mind that now we see dimly, but then we will see as we are seen. You are right though, this person hasn’t met a solid Christian yet, and I suspect, he isn’t looking for such a level headed – logical and loving Christian. This would blow away his accepted bias about us. And he isn’t ready for that, because when he does, his worldview will be challenged.
OKAY, I want to post just a few sentences, as there are many others I could mention, so I can comment on them: “They blamed homosexuals for spreading AIDS, for moral decay, for creating the atanist ‘new age’ philosophy, for attempting to assassinate the Pope, for trying to force a degenerate lifestyle down the throats of Americans, for trying to recruit little children, and for perverting the meaning of the bible…. -- by beating gay people to death at the rate of one every eleven days, by making gay men and lesbians the single largest target of hate-motivated assaults in the United States.” These statements are somewhat laughable. And there is some truth in them as well as some un-truth. I first want to deal with the most politically incorrect part of this, that is, AIDS. “They blamed homosexuals for spreading AIDS…”.
The Centers for Disease Control in 1991 reported that over 90% of all AIDS sufferers are homosexuals, bisexuals, or intravenous drug users. Heterosexuals make up barely 5% of reported cases, but a large portion of this group probably contracted the disease through promiscuous contact with members of the first group. The remaining cases are the result of secondary infections, via the aforementioned contaminated blood transfusions, for instance. In April the New York Times reported that well over 90% of all AIDS cases are male, and they're not getting it from heterosexual contact.
“Anyone can get AIDS” is quite true. However, anyone can also get struck and killed by a passing horse at the Kentucky Derby. The point is that you won't contract AIDS if you don't do certain things. Ultimately it is impossible to separate the genesis of AIDS (originally called GRIDS, or Gay Related Immune Deficiency Syndrome) from its origin and spread within the practices of a significant segment of the homosexual community.
Dr. William Foege, then director of the Centers for Disease Control, stated in the July 4, 1983 issue of Time, for example, that “The average AIDS victim has had 60 different partners in the past 12 months.” It is furthermore disingenuous to claim that moral equivalency exists between those who contracted AIDS via a conscious decision to engage in high-risk behavior and those who contracted it in some tragic accident.
Many sound epidemiologists and sociologists proved that AIDS was being spread sexually through the gay community. Homosexuals reacted to this information with denial. The gay world rejected risk-reduction guidelines that were based on the growing realization that the disease was spreading through promiscuous sexuality involving anal intercourse with multiple partners.
The bathhouses remained open in the Castro, San Francisco’s gay district, and many gay men continued to engage in high-risk sexual behavior through much of the 80’s. Even during the height of the AIDS crisis, when there were no longer any doubts about the origins or risks of AIDS, gay activists in New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Boston opposed any attempts to close the bath houses, which they characterized as “centers of gay culture.” Gay bathhouses in Boston remained open, despite the risks, until 1989.
A major shift took place in the 90’s among the gay leadership. They realized that the deviant self-preservation of the gay community has been counterproductive. Conservative gay authors like Andrew Sullivan and Bruce Bawer, as well as radicals turned moderates like Gabrial Rotello and Michalangelo Signoreli, preached a more temperate gay behavior and rhetoric.
Gabriel Rotello called for “moderation and balance” in gay sexual practices. The real cause of AIDS, he wrote, was the high number of sex partners – on average more than a thousand per year – with whom each “fast-lane” gay man had sex. And after dropping the rates of infections in San Francisco, they seem to be rising again. The San Francisco Chronicle has had a few articles speaking of the drastic increases of AIDS, doubling from a year prior in fact. It seems that multiple partners is all the rave again, and that “bare-backing” (condom-free sex) were responsible for the trend. The Chronicle also documented a new trend where homosexuals were involved in “willful and purposeful infection by both partners – a complex pathology called bug-chasing.” In fact, there are websites where the uninfected people can solicit sex with those who are already infected. Called “gift-giving,” this practice – along with the others already mentioned – adds to the continuing perception of deviance within the gay community. Which would be the correct view, for the most part.
Obviously, another demographic that spreads AIDS is a needle user. However, almost all the cases of AIDS infection and a heterosexual can be traced back to either a drug addict or a homosexual in origin. By the by, one of my favorite evening conservative talk-show hosts is Al Rantell, on 790 KABC from Monday - Friday, 7:00PM - 10:00PM. Al is a homosexual, and would agree, by and large, with many of the proclamations I made and am about to make.
I highly contend the statistic about a gay person being beaten to death by a heterosexual every eleven days. I would love some references to start hunting this down. We have all heard about the Matthew Shepard case, the gay man who was lured from a Laramie bar by two thugs in the fall of 1998, beaten unconscious and left to die, tied to a fence post in sub-freezing temperatures. However we never heard about a boy named Jesse Dirkhising and the 2001 trial of the two gay neighbors who killed him. According to prosecutors at the trial, the two men became friendly with the boy and his mother, their next-door neighbors, and one day invited Jesse over to their house. During the afternoon, they drugged Jesse, tied him to a bed, shoved his underwear into his mouth to gag him, and added duct tape to ensure his silence. As one man stood watching in the doorway and masturbated, the other raped the boy for hours using a variety of foreign objects, including food. The two men left the boy in such a position on the bed that he slowly suffocated to death.
A Nexis search revealed that in the first month after the Matthew Shepard murder, the media did 3007 stories about the killing. And when the case finally went to trial in the fall of 1999, it was all over broadcast news, received front-page coverage in all the major newspapers, and was featured on the cover of Time magazine. (In all, the New York Times ran 195 stories about the case.)
In the month after the Dirkhising murder, however, Nexis recorded only 46 stories. The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC ignored the story altogether and continued to do so through the March 2001trial of one of the murderers, which resulted in a conviction. (The other assailant later pled guilty.) The bias in what we hear via our news outlets is amazing! Hate crimes can go both ways!
I highly recommend the book Coloring the News, by William McGowan, which will show how the gay community has treated its own when even they start to say that AIDS is primarily a gay disease.
.
I will comment more later.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
|
Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/16/2003 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | jhodgeiii
This topic died days ago, but I must rebuke some of my brothers and sisters in this thread...
STOP PUFFING YOURSELF UP by trying to be nicer than God so that you could be better accepted by society.
Iconoclast
The hebrew word for Satan is “ha-satan” which means “the Accuser”. You might not be aware of this but your statement here is an accusation. You are accusing. An accusation is an attribution with false or no evidence. You are making a vicious accusation with zero evidence. I would recommend that you either retract this horrible accusation or you make your evidence public so that some edification might actually take place – one way or the other.
jhodgeiii
We need homosexuality to be re-criminalized. We need homosexuality to be publicly despised.
Iconoclast
One of the primary attributions that people on the other side of this argument make is that Christians are largely being Pharisaical (self-serving hypocritical judgmentalism) regarding homosexuality because they say things like this regarding homosexuality but seem to have no problem saying that most of the other old testament laws no longer apply. A case in point is the Sabbath day. Do you think we should re-criminalize working on the Sabbath? Do you think we should publicly despise those people who do work on the Sabbath?
jhodgeiii
Lastly, the fact that there is gay-bashing is abominable also, but this is NOT OUR FAULT. The fault lies with the gay-bashers so don't let that argument cast guilt upon you.
Iconoclast
If you teach your kids that homosexuals are criminals and should be publicly despised and they then spit on a gay person do you carry any responsibility for that? Are you OK as long as you are only holding the garments of those who are killing homosexuals out of the self-righteous hate that you have flamed?
Jhn 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
If homosexuals experience your words here as being terribly unloving how then will they know that you are one of Christ’s disciples?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
| 548 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:36 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|