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|  Leila Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 93 | Posted 4/21/2003 12:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | As this is my first post on this discussion board, let me introduce myself. I did not grow up in a Christian home. My mother is a believer, but did not impart her beliefs to her children. My father was raised in Iran as a Moslem, although he never identified himself as such. He is a very scientific-minded, stubborn, analytical type who requires hard evidence to believe anything. I would describe him best as an agnostic.
As a child/young adult, I questioned the existence of God and never understood the whole concept of faith through salvation. It wasn't until my late 20s that I made exploring faith a priority and began attending church.
I have been attending church for the past eight years, although I can't quite say when I accepted Christ as my savior. I was baptized at age 30, although in retrospect I don't think I fully understood the significance of the event. I never had a defining moment where I felt spiritually transformed, although I have changed in many areas of my life since I began my spiritual journey. I have really been helped a lot by reading many apologetic books (Thank you, Greg Boyd!) and came to faith through an analytical process.
Since attending church, I have had times when I really felt that God was in my life. During those times I really get into reading the Bible, books on the Bible, listening to worship music, etc. Then there are times (like now) when doubts nag at me and I feel like a phoney-baloney, just going through the motions when I worship.
I think my main problem (although there are a few others I won't get into now) has to do with the notion of hell. I find it very difficult to worship and sing about God's greatness when I think about this concept. This is particularly troubling since I worry a great deal about my father.
I have attempted to talk to my Dad in a non-threatening way about Jesus, but he is very closed to the subject and I honestly can't imagine him ever being open to the Gospel. The few times that I have spoken to him about it I have come away questioning my own beliefs even more. My fear of his death consumes me. I can't conceive of him being eternally condemned to hell. I also wonder what will happen to my own personal relationship with God when this happens.
I believe in an inclusivist view of salvation -- that those who have not heard the gospel will not be held accountable. But I have trouble with the notion that some people - even though they have heard the Gospel -- may not be as open to accepting the message due to their personality, family history, pride, etc. It seems to me that the latter group is just as blameless as the former group with regard to their non-acceptance of Jesus.
I have talked to two associate pastors (from two different churches) about my concerns with my father, whether they believed in an inclusivist view of salvation, and how I can feel more like the genuine, happy, faithful Christian that I so want to be. After each conversation, rather than help me come to terms with my father, both pastors ended up questioning my own salvation and made me wonder whether I should even continue attending church. They both also stated that only an exclusivist view of salvation is doctrinally sound.
At this point, I am still attending church mainly for my children and also with the hope that perhaps, over time, my feelings will change. I also attend a Sunday school class, but I do not feel that I am getting much out of it. It seems no one in the class struggles with questions like I do, and the focus of the class is more on historical events of the Bible, not on theology. I feel like an outsider. My heart is not in it and I struggle with questions that I dare not ask anyone as I fear being judged again.
I am hoping that someone else can relate to what I am going through. I believe in God, I believe in the Bible, and I believe Jesus died and rose again so that I may have eternal life. But all of the questions that I have make me feel like an imposter. I would appreciate any guidance or support that anyone can offer.
Thank you for your time.
Edited by - Leila on 04/22/2003 12:36:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Iconoclast Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1227 | Posted 4/21/2003 5:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila
I believe in an inclusivist view of salvation -- that those who have not heard the gospel will not be held accountable. But I have trouble with the notion that some people - even though they have heard the Gospel -- may not be as open to accepting the message due to their personality, family history, pride, etc. It seems to me that the latter group is just as blameless as the former group with regard to their non-acceptance of Jesus.
Iconoclast
I also believe in an inclusivist view. Although in many ways I don’t think salvation has anything to do with our religious beliefs. On the other hand I do believe everyone regardless of their beliefs, background or current circumstances is confronted with the choice to love Jesus each and every day in the form of the people we come in contact with.
Mat 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
Jesus said that to love Him is to obey his commandment. Jesus’ commandment is that we love one another. Thus, if we love one another then we are obeying Jesus’ commandment and therefore are choosing to love Jesus – whether we know it, as such, or not.
I would define ‘loving one another’ as giving to others at a cost to oneself. Jesus said that man hath no greater love than to lay down his life for his brother.
Because of this I conclude that the only issue is whether we are in the process of dying to ourselves in order to serve others or whether we are seeking to gain our own life at the expense of others.
Leila
I think my main problem (although there are a few others I won't get into now) has to do with the notion of hell. I find it very difficult to worship and sing about God's greatness when I think about this concept.
Iconoclast
If this is because your view is that God will send us to hell if we are “bad” or don’t believe just the right sorts of things then I can certainly understand why you would find it difficult to worship this sort of God. It sounds more like a totalitarian dictator than a God who loves us unconditionally and proved it by dying on a cross. Would any of us give our children over to Saddam Hussein to be tortured for even a few days for ANY reason? Of course not. And do we love our children nearly as much as God loves us? How many of us would submit to being whipped by our children with 39 lashes? How many of us would let our children crucify us on a cross just to show them how deeply we love them? Now some might argue that this is indeed pretty much what happens during the teen years, but still I don’t get the sense that anyone willfully SUBMITS to this kind of abuse.
God is love. Love does not send the beloved to hell. At the same time, Love DOES give the beloved free will and thus allows the beloved to choose NOT to love – else it is not Love. As Greg Boyd has so well articulated in his book Satan and The Problem of Evil: Love Must Be Chosen. Can any of us force our children to love us? If we tried would that be a loving thing to do? Or does Love allow the beloved to separate and go their own way – all the while going to every extreme, even dying on a cross, to woo the beloved back? And if the beloved never returns but goes infinitely far away from the Author of Life, what do we call that place, that state of being? We call it hell. It is total and utter isolation and aloneness.
When we refuse to love others but only seek to “love” ourselves (satisfy ONLY our desires) we can only end up with ourselves and no others. This is hell.
C.S. Lewis describes this very powerfully in his book, The Great Divorce. I would highly recommend reading this. It totally changed my view of hell.
But why would anyone choose total and utter isolation over being with the loving creator of the universe? (C.S. Lewis talks about this in his book.)
An aspect of this horrible dynamic can be seen in someone who is utterly addicted to drugs or alcohol. This person has really "chosen" through a series of smaller choices to seek life by satisfying only their own needs. The result of this we all understand to be a kind of death – a kind of self-imposed isolation, aloneness and misery combined with a powerful denial to realize how their own choices have led them to this state - and a very powerful unwillingness to do anything about it. In fact, any attempt to actually help someone like this is often met with a "shoot the messenger" sort of response and more denial. They tend to blame the person trying to help as the problem as they then try to gain some morsel of worth at their expense. This dynamic can even result in the person trying to help becoming entrapped in a co-dependence cycle though “enabling” behaviors.
The gospel message is that we are ALL trapped in exactly this sort of dynamic to a greater or lesser extent.
So how do we get out of this?
My understanding of the gospel message is that the only way out of our self-centered choice to serve ourselves, and thus the dynamic that results in us ultimately choosing utter isolation, is to love one another. The beauty and power of the gospel message is the good news that we are, right here and right now, totally and completely love by God – no matter what our current state is. While Jesus was dying on the cross he said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” He was saying this about the very people who were at that very moment murdering Him. He loves us unconditionally, just like we love our own children – only much more so.
The gospel message is NOT that we must believe specifically that Jesus was the son of God OR we will be tortured by God for an eternity. The gospel message is that God totally and completely loves us right here and right now, no matter how “bad” we think we are and that He wants to help us learn to love one another unconditionally just like He loves us, SO THAT our joy may be complete. So that we may fully experience the gift that He has already given us for free. The gift of Life.
Leila
After each conversation, rather than help me come to terms with my father, both pastors ended up questioning my own salvation and made me wonder whether I should even continue attending church.
Iconoclast
What did these pastors say to you that made you wonder whether you should continue attending church? Did they not tell you that Jesus loves you unconditionally and that their goal is that the church is a place where you should be able to come and experience His unconditional love?
thanks, Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited by - Iconoclast on 04/21/2003 10:23:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 4/22/2003 3:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
I am hoping that someone else can relate to what I am going through. I believe in God, I believe in the Bible, and I believe Jesus died and rose again so that I may have eternal life. But all of the questions that I have make me feel like an imposter. I would appreciate any guidance or support that anyone can offer.
I think it's admirable that you ask yourself these questions. It shows you care about others.
Who was it said that the unexamined life is not worth living?
You bring up a couple of issues that are near and dear to me as well, the future of my father and that of those who have never had a chance to hear the gospel.
Personally I don't like to talk about heaven and hell as places but as states. Heaven is eternal communion with God, hell is eternal separation from God. Both start before you die. You're either drawing nearer to God or farther from Him. Iconoclast, in another post, said a little bit about character solidification, becoming "set in your ways" that I see in people as they get older. God isn't going to violate anyone's will, if they do not want Him, He will allow them their wish.
My father is still alive so I still have hope that he will be drawn to Christ.
As for people who are outside the influence of the gospel, I feel for them as well. I've studied Japanese and have alot of friends over there and believe me, I want them to have a fair chance. It saddens me to see the amount of gospel influence there is pent up in this country and the lack of resources to unevangelized areas.
Two things have influenced my thinking about these people (the gospel-less ones). One is the testimony of Villy, a Pakistani Christian woman my wife and I met many years ago. She had grown up in a Zorastrian house and at the proper age was taken to the temple to begin her worship (of fire). She refused, having reasoned in her heart that fire is a created thing. She started seeking God, met some people who taught her to pray to dead 'saints' and stuff and she passed on that, reasoning that she didn't want to pray to dead people. Finally she met people who told her about Jesus. She received the promise God has given “If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me” Deut. 4:29. I think this is instrumental, if people genuinely seek God, they will find Him.
[to be continued]
 I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
Edited by - Laika on 04/22/2003 08:30:00 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 4/22/2003 3:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Many Christians think that the only way someone can be "saved" is by hearing about Jesus because of Acts 4:12 “There is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” But I believe that it means that Jesus is the only salvation even if we don't know who He was. Job is an example. Job didn't know Jesus' name. But Job was righteous (according to God) and Job looked ahead: "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth." Job 19:25
Job was "saved" by what Jesus did, Job didn't know anything about Jesus other than that God would have to send a redeemer Himself, people can't do it themselves.
There are other examples of people seeking God; many of these are documented in "Eternity in Their Hearts" by Don Richardson.
Another one found in scripture is the story of the unknown God Paul encountered in Athens. In Acts, Paul goes to Athens and then Mars Hill, where philosophers used to gather to swap stories. Paul walks around observing the idol statutes they had there and saw a altar to an "Unknown God".
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."
I read about a time when there was a plague in Athens and supplications to all of their gods didn't relieve the plague. The Athenians sent for Epimenides, from Crete, who came to their city and
quote: "took sheep, some black and others white, and brought them to the Areopagus; and there he let them go whither they pleased, instructing those that followed them to mark the spot where each sheep lay down and to offer a sacrifice to the local divinity. And thus, it is said, the plague was stayed. Hence even to this day altars may be found in different parts of Attica with no name inscribed upon them, which are memorials of this atonement."
Their reasoning being, there was a god they didn't know about and supplication to that god would ease the plague. Paul seized on this to explain to them who the unknown God was.
All this rambling is to show that people, when they seek God, will find Him. I believe people will be judged according to how much revelation they have received. If people honestly, truly seek God and act accordingly, lovingly, they too will spend eternity with God, due to what Jesus did, not their own efforts. And if the gospel does come to them, I believe their response will be acceptance of it.
I hope this helps.
 I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
Edited by - Laika on 04/22/2003 08:40:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 4/22/2003 4:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | Leila, I can't really add much to what Icon and Laika have said, except to say that I do know where you are at. I struggled with the issue of the destiny of the unevangelized and the nature of hell throughout college. I went to a Southern Baptist University and most of the professors were Calvinistic and exclusivistic. I was blessed to come into contact with the writings of Clark Pinnock and John Sanders in my research of Arminian scholars, and realized that not all Christians view hell and salvation the way that Calvinists view.
Like Icon, the Great Divorce changed the way that I viewed hell, and I too would highly recommend it. I also think that John Sanders "Through No Fault of Their Own" is a very good presentation of an inclusivist position concerning salvation. However, like Icon said, with freedom to love God comes freedom to reject God and choose seperation from him.
Anyway, I will be praying for you that God will let you continue to see the beauty of his love for each and every individual in his creation.
Ross
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Leila Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 93 | Posted 4/22/2003 9:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I truly appreciate the time you took to help me with my struggles. I’d like to respond to each post individually.
Iconoclast:
I am a little unclear about your view on salvation and have a few questions for you if you wouldn’t mind. Are you saying that we are saved by Jesus through the act of loving one another? How did you come to this view? With your definition of loving one another as “giving to others at a cost to oneself,” wouldn’t we all fall far short of heaven’s gates? And what then was the purpose of Jesus’ death on the cross if salvation merely rested on our actions?
With regard to your notion of hell as a place of isolation rather than a place of torture: I would like to hold this view myself, but I want to be true to the Bible and I am bothered by the references to hell as a terrible, torturous place. How do you hold your position in light of scripture that appears to contradict this view?
With regard to the concept that God does not send people to hell, but rather gives us free will so that we choose eternal separation from Him: Are those who choose not to believe truly making an informed choice, for who would choose hell if they indeed believed in its existence in the first place? Isn’t there choice – to deny Jesus – constrained by their lack of understanding, and therefore not truly free? For example, my Dad rejects the notion of salvation through Jesus but does not reject God. He certainly would never choose knowingly to go to hell, yet he explicitly rejects Jesus. How would the notion that people choose eternal separation apply in this case?
You stated, “The gospel message is NOT that we must believe specifically that Jesus was the son of God OR we will be tortured by God for an eternity.” Yet this is the gospel message that I hear repeatedly and have a hard time dismissing.
You asked about my conversation with the pastors. They were not encouraging to me at all, but repeated the concept that “all are without excuse” and that the road to heaven is narrow and only for the few. One of them implied that if I were truly saved, I would not have such questions and that I would have had an obvious spiritual transformation by the Holy Spirit. I later questioned by continued attendance at church because I did not feel that they were inappropriately judging me and I felt that I may be better off studying on my own.
Thanks for the book recommendation. I will read it and perhaps it will help with my views on the matter. Thanks for your response.
Laika:
You mentioned concern of your father. How do you deal with this? When I think of my dad’s eventual death, I worry not just about him but about what it will do to my faith. If he were to die tomorrow, I would be pretty certain he would not be saved. My dad has stated affirmatively that, while he believes in God, he does not believe that God would send “good” people to hell simply because they do not accept Jesus as their savior. He is also against the notion of having “faith” – he believes everything must be proven definitively. Does worry of your father affect your own personal faith?
Like Iconoclast, you also state a view of hell that is not torturous. Could you tell me how you reconcile your view with Biblical passages to the contrary? Thanks for your input.
Ross:
As you have come to hold your own views on hell and salvation, how do you respond to those who believe otherwise and how do you stay strong in your own beliefs? For me, my faith journey has been a roller coaster ride. At times I’ve felt certain in my inclusivist view of salvation and that hell simply cannot be a place of torture. And then, I’ll read something in the Bible that I simply can’t explain away. Or I’ll hear a sermon that introduces the doubts and uncertainties all over again. I would like to get to a point where I have an unshakeable faith that is grounded in the Bible (and not a product of my wishful thinking), allows me to sleep well at night, and is immune from doubts that others may introduce to me.
May I ask what kind of church you attend? I have concerns that my church may not be the most supportive place for me to be at this time. I would like to explore other options, but I am ignorant about the various denominations and what I should be looking for exactly.
Thanks for the book recommendations and your prayers. -Leila
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 |  scott_jorgenson Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 271 | Posted 4/22/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila,
First, in response to your topic title, I want to affirm that I believe you are a Christian, beloved of God and saved as well! Only God knows the heart, of course, but to the extent any of us finite beings are able to "guesstimate" about any of us, even ourselves, here on earth, I think you have nothing to worry about regarding your own personal salvation. I think the main soteriological theme throughout Scripture is that, while God wants us to know some right doctrine about ultimate reality, knowing exacting doctrine really isn't necessary for our salvation (and thus perhaps that is why systematic doctrine isn't really clear in the Bible, apart from the very basics, such that there is a God). "We are saved not by what we know, but by who we know", thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus - and we know God by responding, in our innermost hearts, positively in humility and trust to that revelation which we have and understand about him, no matter how dimmed by our situation, history and circumstances that revelation might be. From what you say, you have sought God, have even come to know him through Jesus - and whether your doctrine is thoroughly sound; whether you feel accepted by fellow Christians; whether you feel spiritual much of the time; whether you can point to a conversion experience in your life; none of these things matter so far as your security with God is concerned. Or so I believe Scripture is best understood synthetically, from its universalistic-tending passages, to its inclusivistic-tending passages, to its exclusivistic-tending passages.
Second, you really bring forward excellent questions about hell and salvation - ones for which you should be aware (and indeed seem to be aware) there are many competing views in the evangelical Christian community, not all of them tolerant of one another. You should expect criticism from otherwise-well-meaning fellow Christians when exploring certain views in answer to those questions. Generally (1) I've concluded the more conservative views (which I define as deriving largely from biggies like Augustine, Luther and Calvin) - such as exclusivism, hell as unending real torment, etc - are inherently epistemologically more systematic and propositional in their content than less conservative views (eg, deriving from Clement, Arminius, Wesley, etc). They are also (2) historically more prevalent in American Christianity (just based on numbers of followers alone). Thus followers of these more-conservative views do tend, from (1), to presuppositionally believe that right exacting doctrine really matters for salvation; while at the same time they tend, from (2), to be quite sensitive about perceived erosion of their historically-dominant position in our culture. Both these factors combine to make conservatives very interested in what we might call "boundary maintenance" - making sure there is no further slippage in adherence to their complete systematic doctrinal package - and that is why I think you will commonly find intolerance of less-conservative views coming from that direction.
As someone who struggles myself with feeling that kind of judgment from my brothers and sisters in Christ, I feel for you - you are not alone by far in feeling uncharitable judgment from your fellows! I can only recommend you prayerfully persevere and find support in like-minded Christians, both personally (eg in dialogue) and intellectually (ie in reading their writings). And if this must mean changing churches, small groups, or whatever, so be it.
Third, specifically about salvation and the destiny of the "unevangelized": I would encourage you continue to study inclusivism and other wider-hope views. The best book I know, and written to boot by someone sympathetic to inclusivism, is John Sanders' No Other Name. From people like Sanders, it has dawned on me that systematic theology isn't found in Scripture, its inferred from Scripture; and except for the very basics (such as the existence of God) there are usually scriptural passages which tend in different directions or emphases on the same issue, from which a synthesis must be made. The destiny of the unevangelized is no exception, and Sanders deals thoroughly with verses suggesting exclusivism, inclusivism, and universalism, to answer questions you might have. Questions about, for example, how non-exclusivistic views can stand in light of Acts 4:12 or John 3:18. Or questions about, as another example, how inclusivistic views can uphold a "faith not works" soteriology (the answer: because inclusivism requires a heart response, ie a faith response, to the revelation one has, of which works are a genuine outworking but not salvific in themselves - ie this is simply the usual answer to the question of faith/works in Christian theology).
Sanders also makes clear that the "evangelized" are those who know and understand the Gospel message; while the "unevangelized" are those who - for various reasons out of their control - either do not know or do not understand it. If lack of understanding is due to factors truly outside one's control, then one is "unevangelized" - even though one may have had a presentation of "Gospel facts". Thus if this applies to your father, then an inclusivistic (or other wider-hope) view of salvation might give you hope for his salvation, even if he never comes to accept Jesus. But, I think an inclusivist would say, it is also true that other factors can stand in a person's way, factors for which one is personally responsible - and thus if it is these which prevent one from accepting the Gospel, then one is indeed "evangelized" and accountable. The thing is, only God can discern deep into one's heart to tell which obstacles are out of our control and which are imposed by our own sin. Only God knows; we externally cannot say with surety, "Look, so-and-so rejects the Gospel because of certain facets of his upbringing, which is out of his control (or under his control), thus he will (or will not) be saved". But as inclusivists we can hope, even to the point of the person's death without explicit acknowledgement of the Gospel - or so I believe. And so I believe you can have hope for your father, for only God knows his heart and the source of the obstacles confronting it.
Fourth, specifically about the nature of hell: likewise there are a variety of views, and I suggest you look into how those views which do not see hell as a concrete place of real torture (eg the metaphorical view, also the annihilationist view) deal with those Bible verses which would seem to suggest otherwise. The Zondervan book Four Views on Hell might be helpful for you. Nonetheless all views of hell would agree that, whatever hell might be, for those finally impenitent who end there, it is a dreadful thing and one to desperately be avoided. I do not feel that one should seek for alternative views on hell merely in order to somehow lessen its severity, but only to make the best sense of Scripture, in synthesizing its messages about God's love and mercy with its messages about his justice.
I hope these ramblings are helpful. Again, my heart goes out to you.
Best regards,
Scott
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 |  John Earp Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1715 | Posted 4/22/2003 5:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Leila,
Here's how I think both positions (exclusivist and inclusivist) can be reconciled:
All have sinned, either:
1. Against the revelation of God through his creation (ch. 1),
2. Against the revelation of God through the law of conscience (ch. 2).
or
3. Against the revealed word of God (ch. 3).
Therefore, it seems to me that no one will be in hell who has not first rejected what they do know about God and his law. In other words, as far as I have been able to determine, no one goes to hell because of ignorance, they go to hell because of willful rebellion against God and his righteous standards, which they all know through one of the three revelations above. (I also find the idea persuasive that there are in fact different degrees of punishment in hell, just as there are different degrees of rewards in heaven).
As for those who have never heard the gospel, God could also simply reveal himself to a hungry heart, just as He did for Abraham. In Acts 10:34-35 the apostle Peter said, Opening his mouth, Peter said: ¶ "I most certainly understand {now} that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Acts 17:26 and He made from one {man} every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined {their} appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
From the above examples, as well as other passages like them, it seems reasonable to me that IF a total heathen with no knowledge of the gospel were to sincerely seek to know God and live according to the law of his conscience, God would reveal himself to such a one, and would eventually bring the gospel to him. But I think we all will agree that no one deserves anything more than what they receive in the Final Judgment. Anything good we may receive then will be absolutely dependent upon God's grace in Christ.
Please note, this does not undermine the "missionary mandate" at all, as it is still incumbent upon all Christians to "make disciples of all nations," and cannot know apart from divine revelation who is and who isn't wholeheartedly seeking to know God.
My 2 (or 3) cents
john@revivaltheology.net
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 04/22/2003 10:11:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 4/23/2003 3:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Laika:
You mentioned concern of your father. How do you deal with this? When I think of my dad’s eventual death, I worry not just about him but about what it will do to my faith. If he were to die tomorrow, I would be pretty certain he would not be saved. My dad has stated affirmatively that, while he believes in God, he does not believe that God would send “good” people to hell simply because they do not accept Jesus as their savior. He is also against the notion of having “faith” – he believes everything must be proven definitively. Does worry of your father affect your own personal faith?
I'm praying for my father, I'm being obedient to my father, I try and talk to my father about Jesus. If my father dies in his sins, I will be very sad but why should it affect my faith? That's part of the bargain we have with life, there is real joy and there is real pain. "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes"
quote:
Like Iconoclast, you also state a view of hell that is not torturous. Could you tell me how you reconcile your view with Biblical passages to the contrary? Thanks for your input.
I believe separation from God will not be pleasant. Jesus suffered separation from His father while on the cross and it reads as pretty agonizing. That said, I have not 'studied' hell or the state of the unrighteous after they die. I do believe eternal separation from God will be tortuous, but would rather concentrate on the positive aspects of following Jesus.
My issue is with the evangelistic style of "do you want to go to heaven?" or "repent or you will go to hell" type of messages. How about "do you want fullness of life NOW?" instead.
 I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
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 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 4/23/2003 3:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
John Earp:
Here's how I think both positions (exclusivist and inclusivist) can be reconciled:

 I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
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 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 4/23/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | Leila, you asked quote: As you have come to hold your own views on hell and salvation, how do you respond to those who believe otherwise and how do you stay strong in your own beliefs? For me, my faith journey has been a roller coaster ride. At times I’ve felt certain in my inclusivist view of salvation and that hell simply cannot be a place of torture. And then, I’ll read something in the Bible that I simply can’t explain away. Or I’ll hear a sermon that introduces the doubts and uncertainties all over again. I would like to get to a point where I have an unshakeable faith that is grounded in the Bible (and not a product of my wishful thinking), allows me to sleep well at night, and is immune from doubts that others may introduce to me.
May I ask what kind of church you attend? I have concerns that my church may not be the most supportive place for me to be at this time. I would like to explore other options, but I am ignorant about the various denominations and what I should be looking for exactly.
In response, I would say that I wish that I could tell you how to have an unshakable faith that is grounded in the Bible, but unfortunately I'm far from being ther myself. I have a lot of trouble with doubt, sometimes about even if their is a God. But I always come back to the fact that there is no other way to make sense of the reality of meaning, beauty, and LOVE unless their is a morally good God.
Actually I go to a typical Southern Baptist church, where unfortunately these issues are often looked over. Responses like "We shouldn't wonder about those kinds of things" are sometimes given to these questions.
To me it comes down to a question of who God is. John says that "God is love", and this is how I see God. My idea of love came from God, and because of this I am confident that God, being the source of love, CANNOT act in an unloving way! (Now I do realize that God's love is not soft or easy; it is passionate, detrermined to make us who we were created to be.)
Got a couple of questions for you. You said that your dad doesn't reject God but doesn't believe in Jesus. Why does he reject Jesus?
Another question- you have asked how we reconcile our beliefs about hell with what the Bible says. Just because hell may not be "physical torture" does not mean that it will not be horrible. The worst times in my life have been when I hav hardened my heart towards God and others and refused to die to self. These times were, in a limited way "hell on earth" for me. But for a person to be at the point where their will was eternally set against God and love and life, this would be total seperation from God and would be the most horrible reality to live in.
Which scriptures specifically are troubling to you?
Ross
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Iconoclast Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1227 | Posted 4/23/2003 6:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila
I am a little unclear about your view on salvation and have a few questions for you if you wouldn’t mind. Are you saying that we are saved by Jesus through the act of loving one another? How did you come to this view? With your definition of loving one another as “giving to others at a cost to oneself,” wouldn’t we all fall far short of heaven’s gates? And what then was the purpose of Jesus’ death on the cross if salvation merely rested on our actions?
Iconoclast
My view comes from my understanding of what the Bible says caused the whole problem in the first place. Have you ever asked yourself why it is that we need to be “saved”? Saved from what? What sort of trouble is it exactly that we are in? What exactly did we do? Or not do - to be in such trouble that we need to be saved?
I believe that most religious folks would say something like – well, we were bad. We did bad things and we keep doing bad things and God doesn’t like that. God is going to punish us for doing bad things by eternally tormenting us in hell. They would say that we transgressed THE LAW and that God’s justice requires us to pay the full penalty. Which, of course, means being tortured eternally in hell by someone who makes Hitler and Saddam Hussein look like kindergartners (that would be Satan).
I will call this the legal view of what our problem is.
The legal view says that if we transgress THE LAW in any way at all, littering for example, then we are guilty of the entire law and must therefore pay the full penalty of transgressing the entire law. This is the reasoning in this view for why it is absolutely just for God to torture us for eternity in hell for littering.
The religious folks who uphold this view argue that God MUST do this because he is just. But let's ask the question: does this seem just? Would a just God do this? Would a loving God do this? What does “love” even mean if God would do such a thing? Is this how we behave toward our children? Is this how we behave toward people who steal? Is this how we behave toward people who litter?
The legal view would answer these questions saying that God HAS to do this because He is compelled to be just, but fortunately, because He also happens to be a loving God, He has given us a way out. A means of being “saved” from our just punishment. How are we “saved” in this view? The strict legal view says that Jesus was punished FOR us. That Jesus satisfies God’s just requirement for justice. Now, the legal view can’t let that apply to just anyone for that would undermine the very basis of the legal view, so the legal view then says that we MUST believe that Jesus really was the son of God and then of course repent of our sins and become perfect just as Jesus was perfect or else we will still be tortured for an eternity by a loving but let's never forget, compelled to be just, God.
I realize that I may be overstating the legal view a bit. I do this to draw it in sharp relief because, according to the bible it is this very legal view that is at the core of our problem. According to the bible the legal view is what Jesus has come to save us from. What gets so confusing and confused in religion is that we interpret the bible through the filter of this legal view. We are stuck in this legal view. It is the essence of our falleness.
There are two views of what our problem really is:
1. The legal view. 2. The view that says that the legal view itself is our problem.
The second view, which I believe is the biblical view, says that the real problem is that we have become infected with the presuppositions inherent in the legal view and thus interpret everything through the filter of the legal view. The bible calls this “the Fall”. It occurred when we ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The full case for the biblical truth of this view can be found in the books Ethics and Creation and Fall both by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Much dialogue on this topic has occurred on this web-site under the “Ethics” section regarding this view.
Before we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there was no problem. We were in loving union with God, our creator. When we aquired the knowledge of good and evil we became separated from God. We were no longer in loving union. Why? Because we became judgers of good and evil. We became infected with the legal view. We suddenly started judging ourselves as not being worthy of God’s love and thus cut ourselves off from experiencing His love. This is the source of shame. Adam and Eve experienced shame (they realized they were naked and were ashamed) and thus hid themselves from God. Notice in the story that this happened immediately upon eating the fruit and before any interaction with God. The meaning of this is that because of their judgment they were no longer in loving union with God and thus experienced shame. It is equally true to also say that the meaning of this is that because of their judgment they experienced shame and thus were no longer in loving union with God.
The second view also makes sense out of Jesus’ encounter with the Pharisee. The Pharisee is the very essence of fallen man. The Pharisee is the ultimate judger of himself, others and even God. The Pharisee could not encounter Jesus without first determining whether Jesus was good or evil. The Pharisee is that person who is totally infected with the legal view and cannot see anything in any other terms. Jesus was also extremely harsh on the Pharisees and yet full of love and compassion for the sinners of the day (prostitutes, tax collectors and so on).
Jesus said “judge not lest ye be judged” and “the judgment you make is the judgment you shall receive”.
The problem that we need to be saved from is our own judgment of ourselves, others and God. We judge that we are not worthy of God’s love. We judge each other. And we judge God that He causes us pain and unjustly judges us by condemning us to hell for littering.
Salvation comes when we believe that Jesus unconditionally loves us. Why? The only way to really believe this is to die to our own judgment. The only way to truly believe this and KNOW it and actually EXPERIENCE it as the truth is to fully renounce the legal view, to fully repudiate it by refusing to act out of its mandate which is to judge ourselves, others and God.
Look inside yourself. Why is it so hard to believe that God unconditionally loves us right here and right now, just as we are? What more would we ask Him to do to prove it?
Leila
Are you saying that we are saved by Jesus through the act of loving one another? How did you come to this view?
Iconoclast
The opposite of the legal view is love. When we judge others we are incapable of loving them. When we love others we are incapable of judging them. We repudiate the legal view inside of ourselves when we act out of love. The very act of selflessly loving another is an act of repudiation of the legal view. To the extent that we act out of love is the extent to which we die to the legal view within ourselves and actually EXPERIENCE God’s love for us. When we experience God’s love for us we are in that moment in union with God. It is equally true to say that to the extent that we experience God’s love for us is the extent to which we are capable of loving others. Thus to believe that God unconditionally loves us results in loving others. Loving others helps us to believe that God unconditionally loves us.
Jesus said that to love God and to love one another fulfills the law and the prophets. There is only ONE command: love God and one another.
Leila
With your definition of loving one another as “giving to others at a cost to oneself,” wouldn’t we all fall far short of heaven’s gates?
Iconoclast
This very question presupposes that the legal view is true. It presupposes that God’s love and His desire for loving union with us is dependent on us being “good enough.” God proved this presupposition to be totally false by dying on a cross for us when by our own judgment we are not “good enough”. The very problem is our belief that God doesn’t love us unless we are “good enough”. Jesus' death on the cross saves us from this false belief by proving it to be utterly without merit. And yet we all find it so hard to believe. We still want to hold on to the legal view. Why? Because our very identity has become entangled with the legal view. We view our self-worth as being dependent on how “good” we are. To give this up feels like a kind of death. This is why Jesus says that we must die to live. We must die to our false identity which is wrapped up measuring ourselves based on our own evaluation (judgment) of how “good” or “worthy” or how “bad” or how “unworthy” we are.
Leila
And what then was the purpose of Jesus’ death on the cross if salvation merely rested on our actions?
Iconoclast
Again this question presupposes that the legal view is true at least as I understand your question. I hear the presupposition that salvation depends on us being “good enough” or “justified” or some such legal description. And that you are interpreting what I said as though our actions are capable of getting us over the “hurdle” required to meet some legal standard of “not guilty” or “good enough” or “justified”.
Salvation, which is really loving union with God depends only on us stopping our judgment of ourselves, others and God and believing that God loves us and wants to be in loving union with us.
If a person never heard of Jesus but repudiated the legal view within themselves by actually loving others then to the extent they do that they will experience God’s love and be in loving union with Him.
Loving others IS to believe that God loves us. It IS to repudiate the judgment of ourselves, others and God.
To believe that God loves us IS to love others. If you believe something but do not act on it do you really believe it? No. If you believed a rope was strong enough to hold you but were unwilling to climb out on that rope do you really believe that it is strong enough? No.
Jesus’ death on the cross saves us to the extent that we believe that Jesus unconditionally loves us. The extent to which we believe Jesus unconditionally loves us is the extent to which we will ACT on that belief. The extent to which we act on that belief is the extent to which we love others.
To fully, fully, fully believe that God loves us and thus always act out of love is a life-long process of acting on the less full belief that God loves us by loving others. As we continue in this virtuous cycle our minds are renewed and we are transformed into people that fully, fully, fully believe that God loves us. And thus the legal view becomes fully repudiated within us. Personally, I would expect that this process of transformation will continue even after our death. Which one of us acts totally out love ALL the time? Salvation is NOT a question of whether we have achieve some legal “hurdle” or requirement it is a question of direction and growth. Are we growing in love or are we dwindling within the legal view.
Leila
With regard to your notion of hell as a place of isolation rather than a place of torture: I would like to hold this view myself, but I want to be true to the Bible and I am bothered by the references to hell as a terrible, torturous place. How do you hold your position in light of scripture that appears to contradict this view?
Iconoclast
Personally, I cannot imagine a torture worse than total isolation for eternity. I spent several years as a young adult in an isolated depression of my own making. Seems to me that I was able to torture myself worse than anyone else could do.
Imagine the problem of your children being infected with the legal view. You know that if you could just get them to stop their judgment for a bit and start actually loving each other then they would be able to experience your love and realize what joy looks like. Unfortunately their only frame of reference is the legal view itself. Your only hope would be to try and influence them through language that they could understand and would be willing to act on. You must enter into their model, their construction, their world view in order to even communicate with them.
The difficulty is that for your language to be understood it must be in the frame of reference of the legal view. If they act on what you say they will come to realize that the legal view itself is the problem. But if they do not act on what you say and remain in the legal view then your language will reinforce their belief in the legal view. Even worse, those people steeped in the legal view will use your words to enforce the legal view on others. This is the problem of the Pharisees. It is why Jesus was so mad at them. Jesus said that they “say and do not do”. The Pharisees refused to ACT on God’s language and then went to enforce it on others as though the legal view were true. They even quoted God as proof text! This is the problem of religion. This is what is happening with many religious leaders and pastors. This may be why your father refuses to believe in Jesus. If all he has ever heard is religious leaders trying to enforce the legal view on him and they SAY that it is coming from directly from Jesus and even quoting Jesus through their own filter of the legal view then your father’s response may be quite rational. If this is true then he has just never heard what Jesus is all about. At the same time we are ALL infected with the legal view to some extent and hear things within that frame of reference. The only way to actually break through that frame of reference is to actually and unconditionally love someone. This is what Jesus did for us. It is why Jesus’ death on the cross has such saving power.
Leila
You stated, “The gospel message is NOT that we must believe specifically that Jesus was the son of God OR we will be tortured by God for an eternity.” Yet this is the gospel message that I hear repeatedly and have a hard time dismissing.
Iconoclast
Yes. It is very hard to dismiss. The legal view is very strong within us. All I can suggest is that you “try on” the second view and see if it “fits” to some extent. I would not recommend trying to fully believe this second view – this would only invite the legal view within you to strongly object – and rightly so. If you “try it on” for a bit and find some things “fitting” a little better than they do now then I would suggest “trying it on” a little bit more to see if more things “fit”.
Have you noticed rossfadeinout’s tag line?
quote:
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis
When we see that Christianity is really all about this notion of the second view and are able to live in this second view then we are able to see much more. More things start to “fit”.
Also, notice my tag line:
quote:
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
The legal view says that we need to gain some form of “merit” in order to measure up or have self-worth.
The second view says that our self-worth is unsurpassable in God’s eyes right here and right now. His death proves how much self-worth we already have in His eyes. Any “merit” we gain won’t increase our self-worth, it is already unsurpassable. The “so-called merit” is itself a reference to the legal view’s false view of merit. “Merit” or loving one another is really a part of the incredible gift we have been given. It IS joy itself.
thanks, Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited by - Iconoclast on 04/25/2003 12:18:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Leila Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 93 | Posted 4/24/2003 10:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks all for your continued contributions to this discussion. It is very helpful to me. In response:
Scott Jorgensen:
First, I want to thank you for your words of affirmation. My previous attempts to discuss issues such as this with so-called experts have left me with many doubts and feelings of inadequacy. I would like to strengthen my beliefs so that I am not shaken or offended by views to the contrary, but until I am at that point, words of understanding such as yours are very helpful and encouraging to me.
As far as finding “like-minded Christians” as you recommend, that is something that I am trying to explore. The Sunday school class I currently attend focuses its discussion on – what to me – are trivial aspects of the Bible, while I feel a need to focus on more big-picture concerns. As I did not start attending church until age 29 and I have found it difficult for me to parse sections of the Bible and fully appreciate and understand them without ever having studied the Bible in a big-picture context. I am more concerned, at this stage, as working through my larger theological concerns. Unfortunately, my church – nor the churches I am familiar with -- does not offer any such classes. Do you think that there are certain types of churches or denominations that might offer more of what I am looking for?
Thank you for the book recommendation. Although I have personally embraced an inclusivist view, it is important to me that this view is scripturally sound and not just a product of my wishful thinking. I will certainly read Sanders’ book so I can see exactly how his views hold up to the Bible.
I do have a question, though, concerning Sanders’ distinction between the evangelized and unevangelized. I have always thought of the unevangelized as those who have never physically heard the gospel or who are intellectually unable to understand it (children, mentally retarded). If I understand correctly, it appears that Sanders’ definition of “unevangelized" would include those who are unable to truly understand the gospel for other reasons (that are equally outside their control). Would this then include factors such as one’s personality (prideful), intellect (need that all be proved by science), family history (to embrace Christianity would be offensive to parents who believed otherwise), negative experiences with the church (money-grubbing televangelists, sex scandals, etc.)? All of these experiences – outside of one’s control – can combine to form a heart pretty resistant to hearing the Gospel. I have an uncle, for example, whose father was Catholic and mother was Baptist. His maternal and paternal grandfathers fought constantly over their religious differences in front of my uncle, creating a real rift in the family, and they both attempted to convince my uncle, through angry, threatening rhetoric, to believe as they did. As a result, my uncle is not a “believer,” sees Christianity as a very divisive, hypocritical religion and he refuses to discuss the issue with anyone. Would Sanders consider him unevangelized? If not, isn’t he equally blameless in his hardened heart? If so, what would be an example of someone who freely rejects Christ? Aren’t we all products of factors outside of our control – our upbringing, intellect, personality, race, socioeconomic status, etc.? I guess the answer lies in your statement that “only God can discern deep into one's heart to tell which obstacles are out of our control and which are imposed by our own sin.”
John Earp:
Thanks for sharing your views. Are you saying then that God reveals himself to us all, only to differing degrees? And that we are then all accountable to God to the degree we have responded to what has been revealed? This seems to make sense with regard to those living in remote areas of the world, but what about those who practice other major religions? Doesn’t this doctrine imply that all but those who actively deny God (atheists) be saved? Would Jews and Moslems who worship God and do not rebel against him be saved?
Laika:
I, too, pray for my father and I have tried talking to him (very carefully and respectfully), but I cannot imagine him every being receptive to Christianity. The reason that I asked if your father’s death would affect your faith is because I am very fearful that mine will. Most of the people I have talked to about this offer very little hope. I fear that his death will be utterly devastating to me and that I may turn away from the church -- or maybe even God – as a sort of a bury-my-head-in-the-sand defense mechanism. What I am trying to do now is to come up with some Biblically-sound doctrine that may offer me hope before this happens. Obviously, my father’s eternal resting place is an issue entirely outside of my control – but my belief about it and reaction to it is not. I’m glad that you feel that your faith will not be affected by your father’s death, and I’d like to be able to get to that point myself.
Ross:
Thanks for your honesty in acknowledging that you, too, are struggling with your faith. Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be able to shake away all my doubts and questions and be able to live an authentic Christian life, or if my overly analytical and questioning nature will prevent that from ever happening.
I have belonged to three different churches myself: two were Southern Baptist and one is a community church (evangelical, non-denominational). While church attendance has helped me feel more spiritual, it does not feed my intellectual needs or answer my questions. I was curious if perhaps you had found a church home where theological questions were thoughtfully and responsibly answered.
In response to your question about my dad: My dad believes in the fact that a man named Jesus lived and that he was a good person with good moral teachings. He is not against Christianity insofar as it provides comfort to some people, or gives them moral guidance and he has been supportive of my attending church. But he is opposed to and offended by the notion that only Christians will go to heaven (if in fact, heaven exists, which he is not convinced of). He does not believe that Jesus was God’s son or that he was resurrected – and that, even if these facts could be proven to him, my dad finds it preposterous for this to be the criterion by which salvation is achieved. He believes if there is a heaven, it is for “good” people and hell is for “bad” people (Hitler, etc.) His parents were devout Moslems who died years ago and I can’t imagine him ever embracing a view that would imply his parents were in hell.
In response to your question about which scriptures specifically are troubling: There are many passages of scripture on hell that trouble and confuse me. For example, Jesus refers to hell as “eternal fire”(Matthew 25:41) and states that there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:42, 22:13) Even if one takes these statements figuratively, to me they still imply hell as not just a spiritually horrible place, but a physically horrible place as well. The Book of Revelation is the most troubling of all with talk of the “the smoke of their torment going on forever, ” “the lake of fire,” etc. I would much prefer to embrace an annihilationist view of hell – it seems much fairer from my limited human perspective -- but I don’t know how I can do that and explain away scriptural passages to the contrary. Your thoughts?
Edited by - Leila on 04/24/2003 3:34:21 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  JET Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2002 Total Posts : 397 | Posted 4/24/2003 11:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: I am hoping that someone else can relate to what I am going through.
All too well.
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 4/24/2003 11:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Iconoclast: This is why Jesus says that we must die to live.
Tom: And if we don't, do we still live?
Tom
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 |  BJS Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2001 Total Posts : 587 | Posted 4/24/2003 12:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila, let me first say how much I can identify with your doubting and searching. Second, I would encourage you not to feel wrong for such doubt. Faith would be completely unnecessary without a degree of doubt, no? Anyway, it's great to have you here on board. You articulate questions that many of us have very well.
I want to offer a brief rundown of the annihilationist position that you inquired about. This is something that I've dug into for the same reasons that you seem to be interested in it, and I have found it rather persuasive. Here's a sort of outline that I constructed for use in a group study that I led for a while. Let me know what you think.
__________________________________________________________________
THE CASE FOR ANNIHILATIONISM
1. THE PROBLEM OF HELL
· How are we consistently to conceive of a God who loves and died for every human who ever existed, preserving their existence forever for no other purpose than perpetual torment? As author Clark Pinnock writes:
“How can one reconcile this doctrine [of eternal punishment] with the revelation of God in Jesus Christ? Is he not a God of boundless mercy? How then can we project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness? Torturing people without end is not the sort of thing the “Abba” Father of Jesus would do. Would God who tells us to love our enemies be intending to wreak vengeance on his enemies for all eternity? . . . What would we think of a human being who satisfied his thirst for revenge so implacably and insatiably?”
· How are we to understand the redeemed enjoying untainted bliss in heaven if alongside of this kingdom billions of people and fallen angels will be experiencing excruciating, unending anguish?
· How is this perpetual suffering consistent with the proclamation that God will be altogether victorious, that “all things” will be reconciled to him and that he will be “all in all”? In the words of Philip Hughes:
“When Christ fills all in all and God is everything to everyone (Eph 1:23; I Cor 15:28), how is it conceivable that there can be a section or realm of creation that does not belong to this fullness and by its very presence contradicts it?”
2. ANNIHILATIONIST RESPONSE TO PASSAGES SUGGESTING ETERNAL TORMENT:
· Hell is not suffered eternally; its consequences are eternal. The damned suffer “eternal punishment” (Mt. 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb. 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the saved experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12, cf. 5:9).
The saved do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is eternal in the sense that once the saved are redeemed, it is forever. Likewise, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction, but once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever.
· There is a period of suffering for the damned prior to their annihilation, depending on the severity of their wickedness. This accounts for the various passages that seem to ascribe conscious suffering to those who are judged (Lk 16:19-31; Rom 2:8; 2 Thess 1:6).
· The passages in Revelation that speak of torment being “day and night forever and ever” (Rev 14:10-11; 20:10) are apocalyptic images from a symbolic book that should not be taken too literally. Indeed, even in the book of Isaiah, which is generally far less symbolic than Revelation, God’s judgment is described in everlasting terms in a context where it could not possibly be taken literally. Isaiah writes that the fire that will consume Edom will burn “night and day” and “shall not be quenched.” Its smoke “shall go up forever” and no one will pass through this land again “forever and ever” (Isaiah 34:10). Obviously, this is hyperbolic, for the fire and smoke of Edom’s judgment is not still ascending today. If this is true of Isaiah, how much less inclined should we be to interpret similar expressions literally in the book of Revelation?
3. EXPLICIT BIBLICAL SUPPORT
· The annihilationist view does not depend only on reinterpretation of passages traditionally taken to support the doctrine of eternal, conscious suffering. It is based on biblical material that seems to explicitly teach the annihilation of the wicked. The following are examples:
· Throughout the OT, the Lord threatens the wicked, both literally and metaphorically, with annihilation/destruction/obliteration. See, e.g., Gen. 6:7, 13; 7:4; 19:1-29; Deut 29:20, 23; Isa 1:28, 30-31; 5:24; Ps 1:3-4, 6; 69:28; 34:16, 21; 9:6; Obad 16; Ps 37:9-10, 20, 38; Daniel 2:35; Nahum 1:10; Malachi 4:1; Prov 10:25; 12:7; 24:20.
· Jesus himself repeats the imagery of hell as a consuming fire several times (Mt 7:19; 13:40; Jn 15:6).
· The term consume (esthio) in verses like Heb. 10:27 denotes total annihilation. It is what happens to wood when it is burned up. See Ps 83:14; Joel 2:5; Nahum 1:10; cf. Lev 10:2; Ps 59:12-13; Is 26:11; 33:14.
· Peter seems to explicitly draw this conclusion. When God turned “the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes” he says, God “condemned them to extinction” and thereby “made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly” (2 Pet 2:6). The “eternal fire” that rained from heaven on these wicked cities was a fire that irrevocably incinerated its inhabitants (Jude 7).
· NT association of hell with “death” and “destruction.” See, e.g., Mt. 7:13-14; 10:28; James 4:12; Phil 3:18-19; I Cor 3:17; I Thess 5:3; II Pet 3:7; John 3:16; II Cor 2:15-16; Rom 6:23; James 1:15; James 5:20.
Philip Hughes writes: “It would be hard to image a concept more confusing than that of death which means existing endlessly without the power to die.”
4. SOURCES
· E. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: The Biblical Case for Conditional Immortality (1994).
· Clark Pinnock, “The Conditional View”, in Four Views on Hell (1992).
· Philip Hughes, The True Image: The Origin and Destiny of Man in Christ (1989).
· Gregory Boyd, Satan and the Problem of Evil, Chaps. 11-12 (2001).
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Iconoclast Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1227 | Posted 4/24/2003 12:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom
And if we don't, do we still live?
Iconoclast
Tom, I am a little confused as to exactly what you are asking here.
thanks, Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 4/24/2003 1:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | Iconoclast: Tom, I am a little confused as to exactly what you are asking here.
Tom: Sorry. I wanna try to get back here and post something too. But just to clarify for now; you mentioned Jesus' having taught that "we must die to live." I was just wondering what happens to those who don't "die" this death Jesus spoke of.
Tom
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 |  scott_jorgenson Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 271 | Posted 4/24/2003 1:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila,
You put this to me:
quote:
First, I want to thank you for your words of affirmation. My previous attempts to discuss issues such as this with so-called experts have left me with many doubts and feelings of inadequacy. I would like to strengthen my beliefs so that I am not shaken or offended by views to the contrary, but until I am at that point, words of understanding such as yours are very helpful and encouraging to me.
You're welcome. By the way, I hope I don't sound like some sort of "guru" who has completely figured out how to have surety and confidence in my faith while at the same having open questions, reasonable doubts, and some conclusions that more-conservative brethren castigate me for. I am in your boat :-) but have thought about this a lot and am certainly more comfortable and confident with where I'm at than I used to be. I pray the same for you.
quote:
As far as finding “like-minded Christians” as you recommend, that is something that I am trying to explore. The Sunday school class I currently attend focuses its discussion on – what to me – are trivial aspects of the Bible, while I feel a need to focus on more big-picture concerns. As I did not start attending church until age 29 and I have found it difficult for me to parse sections of the Bible and fully appreciate and understand them without ever having studied the Bible in a big-picture context. I am more concerned, at this stage, as working through my larger theological concerns. Unfortunately, my church – nor the churches I am familiar with -- does not offer any such classes. Do you think that there are certain types of churches or denominations that might offer more of what I am looking for?
Well, unfortunately this remains an unresolved area for me, too. There are several problems I've found in finding such a community.
- Nobody's interested. Most fellow Christians are much less interested in theology and doctrine, in my experience, than they are interested in praise, fellowship, and application (of course I'm not putting those down - they are in fact, I believe, the more important aspects of Christian living - but I am making the observation). Of course these intersect - exactly as in your case, where your concern over your father is an intersection of theology/doctrine with application - but it seems to me that most Christians don't rigorously and rationally think about such things themselves. Instead they either believe what they want, or believe what they've contingently picked up during their lives. People like you and the others on this forum, who actually read and think about theology, are uncommon.
- Making this worse, a large proportion of those people who do concern themselves with theology are highly invested in one view or another. And there are as many doctrinal opinions as there are denominations (more actually). You need a community of people who are not only interested in such issues, but are open and tolerant of exploration among those issues, rather than in having it "their way or the highway". This wittles down the potential population even more.
- The result, I'm afraid, is that I've never found a church in which such a, for lack of a better word, "intellectual" community was predominant and thriving. A church, after all, is typically a body of co-located people who can fit in one building, and thus is necessarily limited to a few hundred or thousand people at most, all living in the same area. This just isn't a population and diversity base big enough, I conclude, for such a community to often thrive. In fact, I now found much more "intellectual" Christian reward in turning to books and discussion forums like this one - specially created for such a community across millions of Christians, a population large enough to support it. Today I turn to church for praise/worship solely.
- Its the same problem with small groups, church classes and bible studies. If group members are close, I find them valuable sources of fellowship and encouragement in application, but not "intellectual" concerns.
- Finally, I should say my entire church history is with Protestant non-denominational churches. Precisely because such churches are non-denominational, they - I think - tend to de-emphasize theology and doctrine because, lets face it, they're divisive. They're the reasons for many, if not most, of the denominations. Perhaps a denomination would offer a better, more "intellectual" environment, but I don't have experience with that. I would certainly suspect that moderate and liberal mainstream denominations would be more tolerant and affirming of you, but then they might also be spiritually barren, offering psychology and works and philosophy but not "living water". Perhaps a self-professed "confessing" or similar more-conservative church, within a moderate (like Presbyterian Church USA) or liberal (like Methodist or Episcopalisn) mainstream denomination, would be a place to look for acceptance? You're still left with the fact that most Christians, IMO, aren't intellectually interested in theology/doctrine, though.
quote:
Thank you for the book recommendation. Although I have personally embraced an inclusivist view, it is important to me that this view is scripturally sound and not just a product of my wishful thinking. I will certainly read Sanders’ book so I can see exactly how his views hold up to the Bible.
I do have a question, though, concerning Sanders’ distinction between the evangelized and unevangelized. I have always thought of the unevangelized as those who have never physically heard the gospel or who are intellectually unable to understand it (children, mentally retarded). If I understand correctly, it appears that Sanders’ definition of “unevangelized" would include those who are unable to truly understand the gospel for other reasons (that are equally outside their control). Would this then include factors such as one’s personality (prideful), intellect (need that all be proved by science), family history (to embrace Christianity would be offensive to parents who believed otherwise), negative experiences with the church (money-grubbing televangelists, sex scandals, etc.)? All of these experiences – outside of one’s control – can combine to form a heart pretty resistant to hearing the Gospel. I have an uncle, for example, whose father was Catholic and mother was Baptist. His maternal and paternal grandfathers fought constantly over their religious differences in front of my uncle, creating a real rift in the family, and they both attempted to convince my uncle, through angry, threatening rhetoric, to believe as they did. As a result, my uncle is not a “believer,” sees Christianity as a very divisive, hypocritical religion and he refuses to discuss the issue with anyone. Would Sanders consider him unevangelized? If not, isn’t he equally blameless in his hardened heart? If so, what would be an example of someone who freely rejects Christ? Aren’t we all products of factors outside of our control – our upbringing, intellect, personality, race, socioeconomic status, etc.? I guess the answer lies in your statement that “only God can discern deep into one's heart to tell which obstacles are out of our control and which are imposed by our own sin.”
Well, I think you've answered your own question. We humans can't define the answer, only an infinite God can. But this shouldn't be a surprise to us. For example, you say you've always thought of the unevangelized as being those, like children and the mentally disabled, who are physically incapable of understanding. If you think about it, though, even this is imprecise. Is a 2-year old incapable of understanding his "badness" and that Jesus loves him? What about a 4-year old? Six? Ten? When exactly is that "age of accountability" (something found nowhere in Scripture, by the way) anyway? Can it even be a precise age, or is it different from one person to the next? Even for a single person, is it a precise moment - "poof, now I'm accountable, yesterday I wasn't" - or is it an emergent property, developing over time? If you answer all these questions the only way I think possible - that the "age of accountability" does not exist as such, but is something that emerges gradually over time within each individual according to no fixed law - then you already realize that the answer to "when is a person saved versus not" is something that in each precise case only God knows.
Looked at another way, this answer makes sense, because any way we could frame a precise answer would essentially lead to legalism. (And does patently lead to a sort of "salvation legalism" or "doctrinal legalism" in those churches that emphasize a formula for salvation.) And that is in complete contradiction to the spirit of the Gospel and Jesus' own ministry. (Are we saved by explicitly knowing about and believing in him? Or by loving God, the greatest commandment? Or by loving our neighbors - "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me"? Jesus gives all these answers, with different emphases in John than in Matthew, for example. The answer seems to be an imprecise one that synthesizes together what Jesus said - something I think is best done by inclusivism.)
Now, I expect that while there may be some comfort in this for you re: your father, I also know that it doesn't answer your question, "yes, your father is saved regardless". It may give hope, but not certainty; and the flip side of hope is risk. To the extent personal factors standing in the way of one's acceptance of the Gospel, like pride, are sin rather than circumstantial (and they're usually thought of as sin, though I'm open to the idea of circumstances being such that God overlooks them), then there is risk, and the inclusivist view can't remove that. I don't think God wants to either - whatever the merits of inclusivism, I think it seems clear from the Gospels and especially the Epistles that God's primary salvation plan - the one he prefers his children to follow - is the one that includes coming to know Jesus. Inclusivism is a back-up strategy, never unambiguously taught. But as an inclusivist, I think that even as there is risk, you can also have hope for your father.
Incidentally, I think many of us have loved family members too with which we have the same issue - I know I do. For them, I take comfort in this, and hope you can too.
Scott
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 |  John Earp Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1715 | Posted 4/24/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila,
Thanks for your response. My best answers to your questions are below in bold; your questions I have taken the liberty to break up in order to respond one by one (not in bold).
(Begin Quotes from earlier post):
Thanks for sharing your views. Are you saying then that God reveals himself to us all, only to differing degrees? And that we are then all accountable to God to the degree we have responded to what has been revealed?
Yes, that is what I gather from Romans 1, 2, & 3.
This seems to make sense with regard to those living in remote areas of the world, but what about those who practice other major religions?
As I understand it, this would depend on how well informed they were of the gospel, and how obedient they were to the light they did have
Doesn’t this doctrine imply that all but those who actively deny God (atheists) be saved?
As I understand your question, no. Active denial of God would include "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" (as in Romans 1) through willful sin against what moral light one possesses. Active denial of God would include those described in Romans 2 as disobeying the law of their own God-given conscience. And of course, denial of God would include those who disobey the revealed Word of God (as depicted in Romans 3). As you can see, this puts everyone in desperate need of God's mercy. Or, as Paul said, "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Would Jews and Moslems who worship God and do not rebel against him be saved?
I would have to conclude, with the clear testimony of the New Testament, that those who reject Jesus Christ as LORD (e.g., Muslims and Jews who reject Him) would by definition certainly not be free of the charge of rebellion against Him.
The essential thing is that all have sinned by their own choice and are therefore worthy of condemnation; no one can ever possibly "deserve" a chance at heaven. If any find themselves in hell, it only will be the righteous judgment of God against the individual's own choice to sin against the light she did have. If any find themselves in heaven, it will only be because of the unmerited favor of God. It's all by grace.
If this sounds Calvinistic, it certainly isn't meant to be; I'm about as anti-Calvinistic as can be, but I do find the idea that anyone can "deserve" (or, merit) the grace of God to be totally antithetical to both Scripture and Reason.
To sum up, I find Scripture and Reason to demonstrate that all have a chance already through the degree of revelation that they DO possess, don't deserve a "bonus" chance, and cannot rightly say they don't deserve hell. All have sinned and therefore all deserve hell. However, if any persist in seeking after God, God will reveal himself to them, as He did for example for Cornelius's household in Acts 10.
Hope this helps clarify my point of view for you.
God bless,
John
P.S. This all begs the question of the atonement of Christ as a factor in God's final judgement of individuals. But that is for another post, another time.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 04/24/2003 11:32:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Iconoclast Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1227 | Posted 4/24/2003 5:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom
you mentioned Jesus' having taught that "we must die to live." I was just wondering what happens to those who don't "die" this death Jesus spoke of.
Iconoclast
My understanding of the biblical narrative on this is that those who don’t “die” to the legal view, who never repudiate the legal view in any way, end up having the legal view grow and grow within them until they “commit the unforgivable sin”, which in the second view is just a point of no return. The “unforgivable sin” that Jesus talked about was when the Pharisees saw Jesus do an act of pure love (healing someone) but SAW it as evil (from the power of Beelzebub). This is the point of no return from the legal view. It is when we see pure love but our legal view filter is SO strong the pure love looks like pure evil to us. When this happens how can we possibly find our way back? Everything that love does to woo us back looks and feels like a horribly evil attack. Once this complete solidification happens then the person is eternally separate from God. Not of God’s choosing but of their own choosing: “the judgment you make is the judgment you shall receive”.
The bible refers to this eternal separation as eternal torment. There are two ways to interpret this from the second view:
1. Being eternally separate from God is utter isolation and is felt as such by the person who is eternally separate. Perhaps the torment is the isolated individual castigating themselves for eternity or nursing some grudge for eternity.
2. The biblical language is God speaking to us in OUR frame of reference (the legal view) in order to influence us to ACT on his command to love one another. The underlying truth of this speech would be that it is FAR better to die to the legal view and experience the joy of God’s love than to dwindle away into nothingness.
I don’t see strong evidence in the bible for one view over the other.
My current guess on what is most probable comes from the time when Jesus said that God could raise children of Abraham from these rocks combined with the Genesis narrative of us being made from dust. It suggests that we ARE “rocks” that God has awoken and given a sort of provisional life. Enough life to be able to choose whether to “go through” the pain and gain eternal life OR to choose NOT to “go through” the pain and sink back into the unconsciousness of being a “rock” again.
The caveat to this is that it may be that out of love God is unwilling to “annihilate” us against our will even if we have chosen eternal separation from Him. Thus He may allow people to forever “torment” themselves in isolation. Now this “torment themselves” may only be a valid perspective from the point of view of those who have learned to experience God’s love and His joy. From the point of view of the person who has chosen eternal separation it may look quite different. They may be living in some total fantasy of their own creation. Imagine a very aged person who is isolated, angy and bitter and is gaining some semblance of existence through the endless replay of some long ago but not-lost grudge they continue to nurse. From our perspective they are living in total torment of themselves. It IS a kind of hell. From their perspective they may be just fine.
thanks, Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 4/24/2003 11:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | Leila-
Nice name. My secretary’s name is Leila.
I can identify with your struggle. My Dad was an atheist his entire life. Now 79 and dying with cancer, he’s in his last months. I’ve shared Christ with Dad, as has our entire family, lots of times. I actually do think Dad now believes in God and has come to terms with God. Things he says kinda hint at that. But if I push the discussion too much he tells me to “Kiss off!” (using slightly different words).
I also love Muslims and have now spent over half my life here in the Middle East.
I also have a good friend, a follower of Jesus from a Sunni background, who lives in St. Paul and who is presently asking about his mother the same questions you’re asking about your father, except his mother died a year ago. A Muslim to the end, she lived with him in St. Paul for at least 20 years, up until she died of cancer, never having accepted Christ or expressing any interest whatsoever in him. Jalal is a very kind and loving person. He shared Christ with his Mom in word and deed. When she died he was devastated and he continues to struggle. Is Mom in hell? Would God do that? She wasn’t a murderer, didn’t steal or cheat, was honest, and faithfully raised her children as a single mother. But she rejected Christ.
My friend was, and is, in crisis over this. He no longer identifies himself as a “Christian.” I asked him, “Well, what about the vision of Christ you had that brought you to Christ 30 years ago? Was that just false?” He says no, it wasn’t. Christ did appear to him. “Do you repudiate the Cross? Do you no longer personally trust in Christ? Is that what you’re rejecting?” I asked him. He said, “Oh no. I will never do that.” “What is it then?” I asked. His basic answer was that it’s his Mom. To continue being a Christian, he feels he has to believe that she is now in hell in torment. And he simply can’t do that. The words won’t come out of his mouth. So, he no longer wishes to identify himself with a faith that requires this of him.
I won’t bore you with the details, but we discussed some of the issues that have appeared on this thread. I’d like to pass on basically what I told him.
Let me just say too, Leila, that your comments, history, and attitude only make sense to me if it’s true that you ARE a believer, and a caring and loving one at that.
First, I don’t think inclusivism has anything to do with your struggle, and I wouldn’t waste time looking there for answers regarding your Dad. You said your Dad had heard of Christ. You shared your faith on several occasions. So he doesn’t qualify under inclusivism as “the unevangelized.”
Inclusivism isn’t the belief that all the unevangelized automatically “make it” on account of their not having heard of Jesus. It’s the view that they may still be saved without hearing explicitly of Christ provided other things fall into place. Like what? Well, the “faith-principle” still applies. Even John Sanders admits that the unevangelized must still have a clear understanding of their need, must abandon all self-reliance and dependence upon works-righteousness, and must cast themselves in trusting faith upon whatever understanding of God they have.
The "faith-principle" applies universally. It applies to you Dad, and you, and me, and all of us. Whatever may justifiably account for your Dad's rejection of Christ, it remains true that he has enough light and truth to respond in faith. He can cry out if he wills to. Only God knows if he has.
I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with inclusivism. My point is, there’s nothing in inclusivism that will give you rest concerning your Dad.
If conceding that salvation is, on inclusivist terms, “possible” makes one an inclusivist, then, OK, I’m an inclusivist. But unfortunately I don’t find that this overwhelms me with a sense of hope and optimism for the world’s unevagelized. There’s still Romans one, where, it seems to me, Paul expressed his belief in the universal failure of humanity at even this minimal, inclusivist level.
Seems to me that if Paul possessed the hope that the world was populated, even sparsely, with people who found salvation via the general revelation available in creation and conscience, his argument here would look very different. The context of the chapter is perfectly appropriate for him expressing such a belief had he held to it. I can hardly imagine him not expressing such a belief if he held to it. Paul does not at all appear optimistic about the likelihood that any will find salvation on such grounds, even if it is, technically speaking, “possible.” Quite the opposite. He concludes his discussion with a rather sobering and depressing reality: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." Yes, inclusivists have answers for why such passages don’t rule out a bright optimism regarding the lost. I don’t see it myself, but I hope they’re right.
Secondly, if you cannot worship a God who sends people to an eternal hell, then give up belief in hell. I mean, if for whatever reason (right or wrong) you are faced with choosing between believing in “God and no hell” or “No God and no hell,” then by all means choose “God and no hell.” That’s a no-brainer! I’m sure God would agree (even if there is an eternal hell).
At the same time, thirdly, it would be foolish and wrong of you to base YOUR faith in God and relationship to him on arguments about the state of your Dad’s belief and future destiny, or on the arguments against eternal conscious punishment. The debates are ongoing and will be for some time, and any of us could be wrong. We’re not staking our faith in God and in the Jesus who died for the world on our being RIGHT about exclusivism or inclusivism or hell.
Fourthly, trust God with your Dad. You still cry and doubt and wonder. But you can rest and continue to grow in faith. God doesn’t ask us to determine people’s fate. That’s not our job, and we’re simply not up to it. Your sense of peace and assurance concerning your Dad should not rest in your Dad, nor in some doctrine about hell or annihilation (about which any of us MIGHT be wrong), but in the loving character of a God who hung on the cross for us. THIS should be enough for you. Whatever happens to your Dad, you can know that God will do the right thing, the just thing, the most loving thing. If this is not enough for you, then you’re probably trying to do God’s job for him. I try to do this constantly. I do it because I need a proof for a view that admits my Dad and Muslims I love who refuse the gospel into heaven.
We don’t like not knowing. And when we don’t like not knowing, perhaps it’s usually because we’re not trusting. But when I lay down at night I have to admit to myself that I really don’t know, that there IS no one full-proof argument for exclusivism, inclusivism, post-mortem evangelism, or annihilationism, and then my fear and anguish come back. So, I’ve learned that I won’t find rest regarding the unevagelized or my loved ones who are less than explicit believers in Christ in believing this view instead of that view of hell or in believing there is no cognitive critical mass (so to speak) to salvation. Our inability to come up with final, full-proof answers to these theological questions is what makes holding any one view an impossible source of assurance for us regarding the unevangelized and lost.
Look at God hanging on the cross, pursuing humanity, loving us to the bitter end. When I do that I say to myself, “I can trust a God like this.”
If I have doubts about the interpretation of texts which describe what the future holds for the unevangelized or for others who rejected Christ but may not have really understood him (or for whatever reason may have been unable to accept him), I need not have doubts about the God who knows what the truth of those texts really is.
And in the end the truth of the texts in question reflects the God who suffers in love for us on the cross! We all win even though we don’t know who is more theologically right on the issues! Yay!
So, there’s no need to abandon your faith in that sort of God simply because you don’t know the answers about the fate of the unevangelized or the nature of hell. He knows! And the one who knows is the one who died for us. Pray for your Dad, express your and God’s love for him as often as possible, let him know you’re here for him, then back off and trust.
Tom 
Edited by - TGB on 04/25/2003 04:33:05 AM
Edited by - TGB on 04/25/2003 05:02:19 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 4/25/2003 12:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Leila: My dad has stated affirmatively that, while he believes in God, he does not believe that God would send “good” people to hell simply because they do not accept Jesus as their savior.
Tom: I don't see that this belief in itself would disqualify anybody from heaven. You can't go to hell for mistakenly believing God will not send a certain class of people to hell.
This particular belief of your father's has nothing to do with his salvation. What matters is where HE peronsally stands in relation to the faith-principle in light of whatever truth about God your Dad's history and knowledge render him responsible for in God's sight. And only God knows that.
Leila: He is also against the notion of having “faith” – he believes everything must be proven definitively.
Tom: Then on what grounds does he claim to believe in God at all? He believes in God but is against the notion of faith? How does he do that?
Tom
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 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 4/25/2003 6:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom: they're not secretaries, they're "professional assistants." It's Professional Assistants Week."
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 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 4/25/2003 6:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | honorman: It's Professional Assistants Week."
Tom: In America maybe, but here they'll still plain old Secretaries; and they never get a single day dedicated to them! 
Tom
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