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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > Divorce and Remarriage as Adultery | Forum Quick Jump
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 4/30/2003 2:04 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Now, I ask you, should the “church” (I use the word lightly) force these two people to divorce and return to the man who wants to sodomize his wife---which according to many of you is easily the most atrocious sin ever committed---and to the woman who kills her own babies? But if they stay married, they are committing perpetual adultery…their marriage bed is pure, their relationship is strong, respectful and loving, they are truly one, but they are damned sinners none the less and certainly unworthy of TRUE acceptance and responsibility.
My answer would be no. Because of the past choices of the parties, such marriages failed and I don't think the pieces can be put back together.
quote:
My point is this, we cannot escape the fact that solving the sin problem is never as simplistic as we would like to make it. The harder we try, the more situational ethics we run into. [John Earp will cringe, but I don’t have any other term for it] Personally, I resent a church’s involvement in my personal life, and their self proclaimed right to judge my worthiness. I believe all believers should be allowed membership—even homosexuals. Leadership? That’s a tougher question, but the same mercy that Jesus uses to understand our hearts and motives is the same mercy we must use. Everyone has a story, if only someone would care enough to understand and listen.
My understanding of membership is that it would require the homosexual to make a public commitment to live his/her life differently and that if it was found out that they were not living up to that pledge then their membership should be rescinded.
They can still attend but not membership. I would say the same for a non-homosexual who has deviated sexually.
Now, there are other serious sins, but I think the potential for sexuality to be abused and to seriously derail a church's ministry is great and so part of the problem of ecclesiastical order is for Churches and our friends/family to be involved in some aspects of our private lives.
I think it is always sad, but still necessary that such things are part of Church life.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/30/2003 3:55 PM (GMT -6) | | I don't mind situational ethics if we keep in mind that it is only a theoretical treatment of the situation from the standpoint of ethics. I think my response to faith on the questions she asked shows that I am not afraid to answer direct questions with respect to situational ethics.
That said, I just don't care for the use of situational ethics when they are obviously an attempt to use a hypothetical situation to force what would be an immoral choice if the situation were a bit different, and when the situational ethic being discussed ignores the power of prayer and the fundamental importance of personal motives when considering morals/ethics. Perhaps the biggest problem I have with situational ethics as in the the scenario you describe is that it by definition cannot rightly judge, as personal knowledge of the individuals involved is severely lacking. All that are listed are some basic facts about the people, but not enough information to make a good judgment.
Thankfully, God doesn't judge us on "basic facts about our life," but rather takes into consideration everything pertinent, and with absolutely perfect wisdom He alone is able to rightly judge. That is why prayer is so important, so that we can possibly hope to have an inkling of the mind of Christ with respect to a particular situation. Like only one spouse going to marital counseling, it seems to me that situational ethics simply are based on insufficient information.
The letter of the law of God can be violated without penalty so long as the spirit of the law is maintained (unselfish goodwill). If one's ox is in the ditch on the sabbath, one may work to retrive it without violating the spirit of the law.
Edited by - John Earp on 04/30/2003 11:15:59 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/1/2003 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast and Semeia,
I have given myself a couple of days to cool my jets, (though they are still a little on the warm side). You are correct, that I came off mockingly and dismissive and rude toward Semeia. I apologize for this. I felt as if I was being dismissed and my response was immediate and reactionary. I should have thought through more carely before posting "WHO CARES!?" and my deleted post. I won't allow this to happen again. I ask for your forgiveness. I'm sorry Semeia.  I love you guys. Peace?
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 5/1/2003 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Earp:I don't mind situational ethics if we keep in mind that it is only a theoretical treatment of the situation from the standpoint of ethics. I think my response to faith on the questions she asked shows that I am not afraid to answer direct questions with respect to situational ethics.
I think the biggest problem with situational ethics is that will we ever truly know that we have exhausted the relevant aspects of the situation that may weigh in on what is right or not?
I respond to this question with a belief in fallibilism. I cannot know with certainty in many issues whether I have truly taken into account everything I should have or given everything its proper weight in the decision.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 05/01/2003 4:19:56 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/2/2003 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Brandon said: Now, fellow grasshoppers, this goes against the standard Protestant position held by John Earp. John’s position, it is maintain, is that in the case of adultery, divorce is permissible, that is, IT IS NOT TO BE VIEWED AS A VIOLATION of the intent of God, because it is allowed by Jesus. The problem is, is that this goes against the tone of the text. God’s design is the permanency of the marriage. Even in the case of adultery, the divine intention has been violated when the couple divorces. It remains a declaration of sin.
John replies:
You misrepresent my point of view, Brahndan-Sahn. I have never once said divorce is not a violation of the intention of God. I have simply and only said that Jesus (who is God) makes an exception to the general rule (and Paul seems to as well, which you seem to have overlooked in my second post in this thread). If you're going to say I believe something please get it right.
Well, I never recieved an e-mail from adiaphora sending me a copy of the deleted post, though I had requested one. I had a response in there for ya John. Anyway, it went something like this.
I realize that you never once said that divorce is not a violation of the intention of God. In other words, you believe that it is a violation of the intent of the Creator. You have always said that. But I don't think I have misrepresented your view, I just don't think it has been clearly thought through all the way. My contention is that IF Jesus "OK'd" or allowed for divorce (at least on the basis of adultery) then it is a non-violation of divine intent no? Jesus seems to be saying that divorce is only allowable in the case of adultery and that this (idea, divorce only in the case of adultery) goes all the way back to the intent of the Creator according to this view.
Either way, you still have not responded to the point that I make and that is by saying that Jesus said divorce was only for adultery that we then locate him within the conservative school of the Shammai interpretation. I contend that that would be a new legalism and therefore I would disagree with it.
I have looked at various scholars on this specific point. None of them, it seems to me, deals with this. They mention it in their writings, but they seem to pass over it quickly. In my opinion, it is a major point.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com
Edited by - BBBCanada on 05/02/2003 12:50:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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adiaphora
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 123
| Posted 5/2/2003 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Well, I never recieved an e-mail from adiaphora sending me a copy of the deleted post, though I had requested one.
Sorry Brandon. I sent you the deleted post as soon as I received your request. I haven't gotten any error messages, so I didn't realize you had not yet received it. I'll try sending it again.
adiaphora
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/2/2003 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sorry Brandon. I sent you the deleted post as soon as I received your request. I haven't gotten any error messages, so I didn't realize you had not yet received it. I'll try sending it again.
adiaphora
Is your thingamajigger not working again? 
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com | | Back to Top | | |
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adiaphora
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 123
| Posted 5/2/2003 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is your thingamajigger not working again?
Wasn’t your thingamajigger the issue last time?
adiaphora
p.s. Did you get your post yet? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/2/2003 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | Evidently thingamajigger is not a sensitive word. | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 5/2/2003 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is your thingamajigger not working again?
Apparently Tom is not the only person on board who speaks Jaberwocky.  Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/3/2003 5:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Is your thingamajigger not working again?
Wasn’t your thingamajigger the issue last time?
adiaphora
p.s. Did you get your post yet?
Ummm...noooo...not that I know of? It was your thingamajigger that was not working. I remember having problems with my dinglehopper, but then I switched over to my whozits and whatzits because of that. Apparently you are not aware that I sent you back an e-mail stating that I recieved my post, therefore, it MUST be your thingamajigger! 
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/3/2003 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Apparently Tom is not the only person on board who speaks Jaberwocky. Electra
"Jaberwocky"...oh-my-goodness...rolling eyes...
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com
Edited by - BBBCanada on 05/03/2003 10:32:26 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/3/2003 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | So. No one wants to take on my interpretation of divorce AS adultery? Guess it means I MUST be right...Hee, hee, hee...
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/3/2003 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 5/4/2003 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon
I should have thought through more carely before posting "WHO CARES!?" and my deleted post. I won't allow this to happen again. I ask for your forgiveness.
Iconoclast
Thank you Brandon. I very much appreciate you saying this.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 5/4/2003 7:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So. No one wants to take on my interpretation of divorce AS adultery? Guess it means I MUST be right...Hee, hee, hee...
Brandon, since no one is taking a shot at this I'd like to ask a question that's been on my mind. As you know I've been VERY busy lately so I haven't had much time to read through many of the threads so excuse me if this has already been addressed ... As far as I understand the bible I don't "think" that there are verses that address the issue of abuse within marriage and the permission therein for divorce yet common sense would tell me that if I were counseling a person who was being abused I would definitely tell them to get out. However, as far as I can recall the bible gives permission for divorce specifically on the gournds of adultery but not abuse. Hmmm? Are there verses that I am missing that talk about abuse/divorce? If so, what are they?
Thanks,
trosie
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/4/2003 9:46 PM (GMT -6) | | One of the books I'm currently reading is "And Marries Another" by Dr. Craig Keener. Very interesting and so far. Anyone else read this?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/094357546X/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/104-8336858-9262316?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/5/2003 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Just a couple of things.
Iconoclast said:quote:
Thank you Brandon. I very much appreciate you saying this.
Your welcome. But how is Semeia doing? I think I REALLY hurt her feelings. I hope she is fine.
John, I like a lot of Keener’s stuff. TGB (Tom) knows him personally and was instrumental in Keener meeting his first wife. On page 13 of “And Marries Another” Keeners says, quote:
Matthew summarizes Jesus’ teaching AS A SUMMONS TO REPENTANCE in light of the coming kingdom of God.
And
quote:
Some people in Jesus’ day wanted to bring in the kingdom by force, but Jesus warns that the kingdom belongs to the meek, the merciful, the peacemakers, the oppressed who continue to love. THIS IS THE TRULY REPENTANT, UNSELFISH LIFESTYLE HE DEMANDS OF HIS FOLLOWERS…
Keener sounds something like Helmut Theilicke here. There’s a lot of “repentance” material going on in those texts.
Trosie said:quote:
As far as I understand the bible I don't "think" that there are verses that address the issue of abuse within marriage and the permission therein for divorce yet common sense would tell me that if I were counseling a person who was being abused I would definitely tell them to get out. However, as far as I can recall the bible gives permission for divorce specifically on the gournds of adultery but not abuse. Hmmm? Are there verses that I am missing that talk about abuse/divorce? If so, what are they?
Your question seems to me to be more of a practical concern. First, I would not want to take a WOODEN position on this (where specifically does it say divorce because of abuse? This is what I’m saying about legalism). At the same time, I agree with John to an extent, the “abuse analogy” is situational, therefore, the circumstances surrounding the abuse may be quite complicated. So much so, that recommending divorce may not always be the best route to take. Separation may be better for the time being. I would say that this is something only the abused spouse can decide. In the mean time, spiritual leaders can offer guidance to those who are considering divorce and those considering plugging away at it.
Ideally, we would like to see marriages restored. And it is certainly not “beyond the bounds” (HA! Good one!) of God’s ability to infuse even the sickest of relationships with grace. We can expect “surprises” from God. However, we need to be honest about divorce as an option. Staying married is not always possible and as a part of Christian discipleship, we should help people to live the way that Christ would want them to live “under the circumstances,” in love, meekness and forgiveness. We will need to explain that divorce involves sin as a falling short of any ideal involves sin. And we will also have to explain that each person is responsible for the decision that they make and that they should seek divine guidance as to the finality of divorce. And so, we should pray with them as well.
Could the church do better in this area? Well, we have come far, but yes, I still think it could be better.
Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 5/5/2003 5:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, Brandon. I was NOT saying that I would definitely say divorce but I would say separation. Perhaps I came off wrong. My interest was finding some bible verses that speak and address the issue of abuse within marriage/divorce as it does adultery. Do you have any particular verses for me?
Someone asked me for some specific verses a while back and I have not been able to do so. This got me to thinking about this whole issue...
Thanks,
trosie
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/5/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 5/5/2003 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks so much, Brandon! So, from what I gathered from that article the strongest verses dealing with this issue would be Mark 10:12 and Matthew 5:28,32.
Blessings,
trose
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kmills
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 6/15/2005 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | I used to be very judgemental on the issue of homosexuality. That is untill I found out that someone close to me was gay. I realized that my love for this person had not changed at all. I have been praying that this person would come to christ for many years. I do not know why as christians we outwardly or inwardly we put sin into groups. We feel or believe that certain sins are worse than others.
After realizing this I have begun to love people the way God loves them. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/16/2005 1:38 AM (GMT -6) | | BBBCanada said...So. No one wants to take on my interpretation of divorce AS adultery? Guess it means I MUST be right...Hee, hee, hee...<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> Brandon "Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."-- Darwin Hobbs<a href="http://www.darwinhobbs.com" target="_blank">www.darwinhobbs.com</a>
I probably should know better than to jump in in the middle of this, but hey ... I'm a slow learner at times! And besides, I was just having a conversation with some friends a couple of nights ago. The woman is determined that if you divorce and remarry--that you've committed adultery. I do not believe this. If that were the case, then the marriage bed is defiled, and there is no forgiveness and everytime you "engage" as a married couple, you would be committing adultery, right? Isn't this exactly what the enemy wants? For us to live in fear and hopelessness and shame and ... on and on it goes!
I know that marriage is His plan, one man and one woman until death ... but we live in a fallen world, and I do not judge someone whose marriage has failed. Most believers that I know in this situation are grieved that their marriage did not work, and have sought forgiveness, and God has brought someone wonderful along, and, like it or not, they are so much happier "the second time around." Of course this is individual. God treats us as individuals and He alone knows our hearts. Man (woman) judges the outward appearance, but God knows the heart and desires truth in our innermost being. I believe that we should stand united for marriage, one man and one woman for life, but I also believe that we need to offer love and support when that perfect plan isn't realized. I have friends who are together again after a painful separation, but they are not working on their problems. Their marriage is a ticking timebomb. There was physical and emotional abuse and I am very concerned for them. We stand by them and pray for them and love them, but unless they face the difficulties in their marriage, I'm afraid they're going to destroy each other. It is this dear lady who believes that remarriage would mean adultery.
I think this is more complex than most people realize. I don't have all the answers; I look to Jesus and know that He understands each heart, each situation, and that He loves and keeps loving when most have thrown in the towel.
God bless,
Jo-Anne
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
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VisitingAgain
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 8
| Posted 7/15/2005 9:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne said: "The woman is determined that if you divorce and remarry--that you've committed adultery. I do not believe this."
JoAnne, I didn't read the background of the "woman" and have only read this page of posts, but how do you explain the verses in the Bible that say if a person remarries it is "adultery?" I know there are no "easy" answers to this, but if we do not believe that remarriage is adultery, then what do we do with those verses? Toss them out? Consider them not literal? If they are "figurative," what does "adultery" represent in the figurative sense? I too struggle with the issue of divorce and remarriage, but cannot deny what is in scripture and it says that a person who remarries "commits adultery." So again I ask... if you don't believe this, how then do you handle this verse (other than to dismiss or ignore it as if it is not there... but it is there... a couple of times in a couple of differnet books of the Bible). | | Back to Top | | |
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