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Selah

I completely agree and would only add that we can have a taste of it now...(our interpenetration)In Christ. The problem (which I don't get) is retaining it. I think that is what happens in Heaven.

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and

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ModesofThought What seems clear to me is the following:

1. that God relates perfectly with the divine community of Father, Son and Spirit.
2. We are invited to be reconciled with God and know God as we are fully known.
3. This implies profound intimacy and interpenetration of persons with one another and God.
4. God's internal relationship was the prototype for the sexual distinction, our full reconciliation in heaven will be its fulfillment.
5. We are not merely mental or disembodied spirits now or in heaven. So we should expect physically engaging intimacy that is far more profound and interpenetrating than sex here on earth could ever be.

Where are the problems?

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Modes suggests (I'm implying that I disagree with him.) that: 2. We are invited to be reconciled with God and know God as we are fully known.

We will NEVER know God as he knows himself. And we will never know ourselves as God knows us.

And, further, our salvation is IN CHRIST. We do not become equals of Christ. We do become "god" by grace, but NOT by nature. The "by grace" part means that we participate IN the Head, which is Chrsit, by the Spirit. We can, and will, know God personally, directly, but ONLY BY GRACE IN CHRIST.

So, I AGREE more with Selah than with Modes.

And I think that there is some handicap to the word "interpenetration." Remember, "coinherence" is much better. And participating in...

PoW

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/07/2003 9:39:21 PM

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Modes suggests (I'm implying that I disagree with him.) that: 2. We are invited to be reconciled with God and know God as we are fully known.

We will NEVER know God as he knows himself. And we will never know ourselves as God knows us.

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And I think that there is some handicap to the word "interpenetration." Remember, "coinherence" is much better. And participating in...

PoW

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Hello PoW,

I LOVE the word interpenetration (is this a kierkegaard word?)
Here, I looked it up for ya:

interpenetration

\In`ter*pen`e*tra"tion\, n. The act of penetrating between or within other substances; mutual penetration.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


...that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,that the world may believe that you have sent me.

I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.





Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

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And I think that there is some handicap to the word "interpenetration." Remember, "coinherence" is much better. And participating in...

PoW

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Hello PoW,

I LOVE the word interpenetration (is this a kierkegaard word?)
Here, I looked it up for ya:

interpenetration

\In`ter*pen`e*tra"tion\, n. The act of penetrating between or within other substances; mutual penetration.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


...that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,that the world may believe that you have sent me.

I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

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Here's how I do it:
When I seek to love like God does, I penetrate into Him.(or become aware again that I am living IN Christ and He in me) As a result I'm clothed in love (God) then while bouncing around within that (triune love) I allow each characteristic (or facet) of God to penetrate into me (fill me)and penetrate THROUGH me -- out to penetrate others.

This happens only when I'm intentional and that's why I have trouble sustaining it. Make sense?

ok,
love ya,
selah

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WONDERFUL! I get what you mean.

Let me just leave one thing here for you; and its something that perhaps Modes can use too. (from Meyendorff's Byzanitine Theology.) Perichoresis is also (in Latin) "communicato idiomatem." OK, I'll confess; I don't have the latin in front of me--that was memory. But the ENGLISH is simply "communication of idioms." Sounds like SHARING to me!

But then YOU did a nice job too!!!!!!!

Here's what I think that you and Modes can use. St. Maximus the Confessor made a point of how our humanity, the nature of our humanity is good. GOOD. GOOD! So, Christ's assumed human nature, though fallen, was good too. Point being that it was "natural" for Christ's nature to will the same as the Divine will that he shared(s) with the Father. (I'm not sure that the "example" thing that Modes gets from SK even gets off the ground, as their may be no need for it to fly.) Christ did not trash human nature, he healed it. And the message for us is that FOR US TOO it is "natural" to will to do the Father's will.

So, what you say about "being clothed in God's love" is just "GOING NATIVE." Enjoy!!! So, when you say "I allow each characteristic (or facet) of God to penetrate into me (fill me)and penetrate THROUGH me " maybe give it a double check to see whether you are thinking of it as something foreign that is added, or something that the Spirit brings that fits perfectly because it is according to "factory specs." anyways.

Thanks.

PoW

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Paradise, Heaven—In an unprecedented class action lawsuit taking place in the afterworld, Mohammed Atta, Ahmad Al Haznawi and several other suicide bombers have called into question the legitimacy of dozens of “so called” beautiful virgins they were allotted after their death.

“We were promised 72 beautiful virgins if we died as martyrs. I shaved, I powdered and I drove a friggin plane into a building," Atta said. “All I asked for were a few dozen ‘Ji-hotties.’ I don’t think that’s too much to ask.”

Ahmad Al Haznawi agreed. “It’s ridiculous to think we killed thousands of infidels for these dogs,” Al Haznawi said. “Most of them aren't even Muslim and some are wrinkled old hags. That lady over there played Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies.”

According to their lawyer Carl Goldstein, not only were most of the women unattractive, but several of them didn’t appear as virginal as advertised. “I have evidence that at least three of the women may have worked as common street hookers when they were alive. That just doesn’t seem fair.”

Suicide bomber Abdul Hamatas is convinced many of the women lied about their sex lives. “There is no way some of these girls are virgins. No way whatsoever. It was like having sex with a jar of mayonnaise-- if you know what I mean.”

One virgin in question fired back angrily.“I can’t help that my hymen broke during horseback riding lessons when I was 13. Besides, I’m not loose, that jerk just has a small penis!”

When Hamatas tried to execute her for her comments, he was reminded they were already dead.

The Chief Cleric in charge of distributing virgins to the martyrs acknowledged the problem and insists they have it under control. “Look, it’s not easy, they die and we only have a couple minutes warning before they’re all like ‘hey, where are my virgins?’ No talk about visiting with Allah or Mohammed or any of their dead family members. They’re acting like a bunch of spoiled, horny brats if you ask me.”

Due to the unrest caused by the lawsuit, heavenly promises to potential martyrs will be modified in the future.

“Beginning in June we are instituting a new policy that will give each suicide bomber two virgins, six women of child bearing years and then the rest will be sort of a grab bag.”

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CAPTION: "Granny also tried to pass herself off as "untouched""

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JCsites Guy

I'll have to read every post in your thread an learn something on this subject. However, I fear that I will be forever scarred by Modes' notion that we'll have a cosmic orgy in heaven. I mean, I get what Modes really meant, but that word picture... Well it just creeps me out

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ModesofThought POW, I appreciate your concern, but I have to say your presentation is far more dogmatic than it than biblical. I really do understand what you are saying and I simply disagree. You might be surprised to find that Greg would differ with me (in your direction) in that he resists making distinctions of will between the persons of God. I may change my mind on this (after all God does this occasionally ) but it would be for biblical reasons (and within the scope of accepted tradition, not simply the majority voice of a given period, but that which is deemed acceptable), not simply dogmatic assertions.

I do reject the two minds Christology. That stikes me as simply confused and makes Christ out to be schizophrenic. I affirm a kenotic Christology which is well represented in the tradition as well. The two minds Christology, among its problems, offers the temptation of deciding for Christ when he was using his divine mind and when his human. The criterion tends to be the impassibility of God. This is deeply flawed if we are to understand that God is the chief exemplification of passion in God's pursuit of the world, not the exception to passion. Rather than appeal to a divine mind when Christ appears to know things that a human cannot know, I think the Bible points us to Christ's relation to God via the Spirit, rather than a direct mind link. We are to imitate Christ in that. If we appeal to a divine mind at these points, imitation is impossible and Christ is not really fully human.

Anyway, I am open to dialogue, but not so much to dogmatic dismissal. No offense taken. Really. But neither do I grant that you represent the tradition accurately, let alone authoritatively.

Blessings brother.
Modes

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Some religions (i.e. Mormonism) do believe there is sex in the afterlife. They believe they will be procreating their own heavens in fact. Which brings to mind that there are MANY versions of the afterlife but only ONE that is true, the one described in the Holy Word of God! There is no mention of sex in the afterlife in the Bible. Obviously, anyone is free to question, wonder, refute, but you might ask yourself, for what purpose? As well, I reiterate, sex is NOT the basis for love. It is not the ultimate in life. If it is, it's a very sad commentary on us all. Tigress, you insinuated that I do not value sex or enjoy it which I felt was somewhat insulting. You also hinted that I am not emotionally involved in it. I am both emotionally involved as much as I enjoy it much moreso than you will be able to know as you are not present during my intimate times nor do you have an awareness of me or my marital relationship. Sex is a beautiful gift given to a married couple. However, to reiterate the gist of my comments, sex is not the center of life nor is it the source or basis of my marriage or love for my wife. If my wife were unable to have sex, I would still love her and be her husband regardless. I have no doubt I would miss the sexual intimacy I enjoy with her, but it would in no way change my love for her. My love for her goes far beyond merely being sexual. I will not miss it in heaven because I will be consumed with worshipping the Lord and the thought of some cosmic orgy is completely degrading, in my opinion, to both the Lord and to who we will be in heaven. While I do hope I will be with my family in heaven, the Bible seems to indicate otherwise (there will be no marriage in heaven). I cannot quite grasp this thought as being a good one but I trust a sovereign, good God whom I trust and believe, and thus, I believe his ways are not my own and it will be good in heaven and the things I cannot understand now, I will perhaps understand then.

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Sex in the afterlife is indeed a frivolous topic, and I doubt anyone would be convinced of the veracity of Christianity if they were to think they would be able to engage in it in heaven!! :)

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That's what you think. You don't speak for the masses. Don't presume to. And who made you the judge over what's a frivolous topic and what's not? God is the one who created sex, and there's no reason to run from wondering whether or not it will continue in heaven. Or do you think that somehow God is offended by these questions? Do you think that He has the same attitude about my honest concerns that some people here have blatantly shown me? I sure am glad God is so much more loving than that!

S.B.G.,
I think that might be part of it, although I received a prophecy from Peggy Riley in a prayer session with her, that I will be receiving a husband sometime in the future, so I'm not all that concerned about having sex one day. I now know that I will be married at some point in my life before Jesus returns - unless He returns before that for some reason. Either way I'm okay with that. I know that a human husband would pale in comparison to Jesus.

Your question reminds me of a funny story! I had a friend named Marcus, a few years back at the first college I attended, and he always said that before he got married he used to be like, "God please let me get married before I die, or before You return!" But then he said that after he had been married for a while he started saying, "Lord, just come!" Actually, I suppose it's not that funny because now they're divorced.

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7

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72 virgins, not 7.

Found this in an old USAToday article: "They also are promised something more risqué: unlimited sex with 72 virgins in heaven. The Koran, the sacred book of Islam, describes the women as "beautiful like rubies, with complexions like diamonds and pearls." In one of the passages of the Koran, it is said the martyrs and virgins shall "delight themselves, lying on green cushions and beautiful carpets."

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Tigress - your attitude and tone towards me and others on here leaves something to be desired. And God did address your question - Christ answered it - he didn't seem too concerned about it.

I believe it IS frivolous - bc there is no way to answer the question. We have to wait and see. In the mean time there's no use speculating.

Only in America, in our sex saturated society would we be losing sleep over a question like this.

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