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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Questions about Christianity > I'll remove this title until Adiaphora deletes it. | Forum Quick Jump
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|  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 6/9/2003 7:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
I'm not saying YOU'RE frivolous - but I believe that the discussion is frivolous, that is my opinion. Since it's already pretty much agreed that reproduction will not take place in heaven, then sex would be only for physical pleasure and/or intimacy. Both of those things I do not believe will be necessary in heaven - as I don't think our "new" bodies will have biological urges for orgasms in heaven nor do I think we will have emotional needs for family either. But be that as it may, we can't know the answer or even begin to guess, so i think it is frivolous.also know people who find it blasphemous to think of orgies in heaven - but I will refrain from judging you and saying that you've committed a sin by bringing THAT up....
Christ answered the Saduccees question but also, in my opinion, answered yours by default. They were concerned with who could possibly be this woman's husband in the afterlife if she'd been married 7 times? Jesus told them- don't you understand, she won't be married to any of them. In my mind that means she's not having sex with any of them either. It would be a stretch I believe to say that marriage is abolished, but yet nonmonogomous sex is now suddenly ok in heaven.
Anyway this topic is tired.
It's interesting to note that much of what's always discussed on this whole discussion board, i.e. predestination vs. free will, and all sorts of other topics are things which we cannot "know the answer or even begin to guess..."either. Are they frivolous, too? If you answer no, then my question, was not frivolous either as it's no different than any of the other that you don't object to. And just because some people think that this topic is blasphemous, doesn't mean it is. It's merely a question, not an all-out assertion. If questions were blasphemous, then all of us would be guilty of it.
I'm sorry to have irritated you with my inquiry and speculation. I happened to think the discourse was interesting. I'm sorry to have offended anyone.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  DLW Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 2457 | Posted 6/9/2003 8:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | One good rule of thumb is to consider whether going back and forth on a topic, even one that has been discussed frequently in the past, is whether it is likely to come up in discussions with non-Christians. By going over these issues again, we familiarize more and more Christians with them. This familiarity may prove useful in sharing with others.
Abortion, Homosexuality, Free-Will and Predestination do come up in conversations with non-Christians. Whether there will be sex in heaven doesn't. Although, much of the discussion about the ideals of sexuality were in fact interesting and important for us to consider.
dlw
ps. JCSites, it fills my heart with Joy that we never use judgment(or was that discernment?) concerning the validity of the posts on this discussion board. After all there is no other ideal besides liberality of discourse guiding us regarding how this space should be used. 
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth, From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth, From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 06/09/2003 1:12:12 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 6/9/2003 8:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Oh, yeah. I forgot to apologize for posting all those other "A favor..." messages on the other forum boards. I didn't realize that would be such a faux pas, but you're right - if everyone did it, it would get pretty chaotic. Sorry about that. Actually, I was really hoping to get Greg Boyd's insights on this topic, but I guess he didn't have anything he wanted to say about it. Oh, well. Maybe he just hasn't had time to read any of the boards lately.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  JCsites.com Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 169 | Posted 6/9/2003 11:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress,
The board does have a feature where you can e-mail members directly. Assuming they've entered their real address or updated it.
Just go to the members directory and find Dr. Boyd's member profile, then click on the link to his e-mail address and send him a message.
Just wanted to let you know of this capability to speak to other members directly if you want.
I'm sure Dr. Boyd gets tons of e-mail, but I'm also pretty sure that he does his best to answer every message he gets. I bet it takes a while though. I suppose I shouldn't speak for him 
Anyway, just want to give you some support regarding your question. I gotta think that nearly all of us have asked ourselves some form of that question. That in itself makes it absent of frivolity. 
My opinion? People in our little community are cranky these days!!! I hope we all can calm down a little and be civil. Just because we don't know the true identity of everyone on this board, doesn't give us the right to treat eachother more harshly than we otherwise would.
Come on gang. Give peace a change. War (or personal attacks) what is it good for? Make posts not war.
Peace out
JCsites guy
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 |  DLW Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 2457 | Posted 6/9/2003 1:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | Well, I guess sex sells for links.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth, From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth, From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Christian Registered Member
 Date Joined May 2003 Total Posts : 78 | Posted 6/9/2003 5:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress, I am not certain what to say to you at this point or if to say anything at all. I would like to echo JCSites about the crankiness and comments such as "Grow up" and "who made you the judge?" I do not think those types of comments are necessary nor do I believe they would be so boldly stated if this were a face-to-face discussion. Perhaps we ought to only say things we would say if face to face with the person or persons.
Yes, Tigress, I did say that sex is not the most important thing. Certainly it is a wonderful thing and important as well. Procreation would be impossible without it. However, there are those, as I suggested, who either cannot or do not desire sex. There are also those who are single, as yourself, and live fulfilled lives without sex. In fact, I suggest that the mindset of sex being such an important part of life alienates single people (those who remain celibate until married), indluding widows and widowers. Among nonChristians, being a virgin is an embarrasment. This is because our society views sex as an integral part of life and to forgo it is unheard of. Far be it from us to think in such a way. There are some who will never marry and never have sex. Does this mean they are unfortunate and pitiable souls? Is this in essence what we are saying when we say that heaven certainly cannot possibly be a place without sex? These mindsets contribute to society's view of celibate singles/widows being less whole as those in sexual relationships. I believe it was Reasonable Doubt who posts ago mentioned the fact that Jesus never experienced sex. He also did not feel that he missed out. He had a relationship with God that none of us has experienced (being that he is his son and knows God as being one with him) and he had no need for sexual relationships.
Again, I must reiterate, perhaps for my own self, that sex is not THE most important thing in a marital relationship. I believe I can speak for my dear wife when I say that although she is female, sex is not the most important part of our marriage for her either. This is not a matter of being male or female although I do hear your comments and agree that men have more capability of committing sexual acts with less emotion or involvement than a woman. But to say men are not at all emotionally involved is certainly a stereotypical view of men, and not a surprising one as media portrays men as sex-crazed idiots. It is an inaccurate portrayal and there are many men who are insulted that they are stereotyped as not valuing sex because they are men.
All of us fall under the lies of Satan and one of his lies is that sex is a proof of love, sex is not to be sacrificied for any reason, sex is at all times right. Young people believe that being sensual and sexual attracts a companion more than a personality or character. They, in turn, attract other sensual and sexual companions. Need we look at statistics of venereal diseases? It is a lie that life without sex is in some way a lesser life. My wife's sister recently confided to her that if her husband died, she would be perfectly fine never again having sex. She expressed how it simply isn't that crucial to her. Sex needs to be put into proper perspective. It is certainly enjoyable but not at all times permissible in the sight of God and as I stated, it is not a source of love. If I could not experience it with my wife, it would in no way diminish my love for her. What a shame if it did! If my love for her changed, then my love was based on the physical relationship.
It might be valuable to you (tigress) to hear from those who are married and have experienced sexual relations within marriage. When I was younger and single, I believed that I would desire sex every day, many times a day, and I imagined it would forever be this way. My wife was and is a beautiful and desireable woman. However, it is her personality and character that most intrigues me. The first year of marriage was certainly filled with much more passion than the following years. As we grew more accustomed to each other, as children came along, as life settled down, we found that sex was a gift for us to enjoy when we could but it certainly was only one aspect of our relationship and often it was the aspect that had to wait due to us being tired or busy. That is real life.
I hesitate saying this to you believing these comments might not be well received, but hoping they will be. If you go into a marriage with too high of expectations, you will be disappointed. I am certain that your husband will place a high value on sex and will be emotionally involved.
I can not quite figure out your comment Tigress about sex in the afterlife being a witnessing tool to non believers. Alyo was neither close minded nor prudish. To deduce that from only a few short sentences made by a faceless man (woman?) is impossible.
Reasonable Doubt is very insightful time and time again. Glean from her wisdom and see her as an intelligent friend rather than an enemy. I agree with RD that it is only in our sex-saturated society that sleep is lost over such a topic and that things such as "free love" and "free sex" and orgies in heaven is discussed among Christian people hoping to have sex in heaven. We are not merely animals. Let's not forget our brains. It is just as important an organ if not more so than the sexual organs. Hopefully someday you (tigress) will marry a man with whom you can not only share sex with, but who you can also carry an interesting conversation with.
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 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 6/10/2003 8:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for your honest reply. I do tend to get a little too steamed when writing about stuff that I feel passionate about. I think that if nothing else, this whole discussion only proves how insidious the lies are about sex and relationships in our culture and is one of the reasons why I absolutely loathe watching movies that are "love stories." Most of them have really led me to believe in things that simply aren't true. Ever since I was a little girl, the only thing that ever mattered to me was having a guy to be close to. And every time I'd see a typical "chick flick" that portrayed this ideal, I would feel that much more desperate for it, and so much less satisfied with my life. I think that's what happens to a lot of people, actually - even Christians, which is probably why there's also such a high divorce rate among Christians.
I think women are led to believe that there is truly a knight in shining armor out there and that everything will be happily ever after if just a few criteria are met within the courtship period. Men are led to believe that if a woman is beautiful and highly sensual/sexual, that she'll make all his wildest dreams come true.
I'm sorry for expressing this desperation in such a way as to hurt and offend all of you. I guess that's what happens when you've believed a lie for so long. And again, it's hard for me to really know how it is in marriage since I've never experienced it, so yes - it's good to hear from married people about it. I think that because people like my brother, whom I trust, always tells me that a woman should be a certain way, I tend to believe it, but I think deep down, his ideal woman irritates me, because I know she can be much more than that. And his idea of an ideal sexual relationship in marriage is probably flawed, as well, because of the lies of our culture.
So, I guess I've just been really confused about what the truth really is. Being a virgin in this society makes me think that sex must be really extraodinary, not only because of the major value the fallen world puts on it, but also because God limited it to being only within marriage so I always figured it's so important that it must be the greatest physical pleasure one could experience.
Again, please forgive me for my rudeness. I do tend to get carried away when my views are being challenged. Thanks for bearing with me.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  DLW Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 2457 | Posted 6/10/2003 9:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | Feel free to request Adiaphora to take down your "a favor" postings if the spirit so leads you.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth, From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth, From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth, Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 6/10/2003 10:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes, this seems really FISHY!
quote: POW, you may not realize this but I actually wrote my senior paper in college AND my MA thesis on issues of the Trinity and the language that cna be used in that regard while staying in good standing with the tradition. I recommend you read Gregory of Nyssa's article entitled something like "On not saying that there are three Gods." In this article he describes the distinctions of the persons of the Trinity as being AS distinct as Peter, Paul and John.
I do agree, there is one essense (Homoousious), three persons. I do understand the debate, I also understand that the historical sense of the term "tritheism" was directed at those who claimed that there was more than one God and that this implied a distinction in essense. I clearly reject that in all my thoughts on the Trinity. However, this jargon "tritheist" has now come to mean any robust distinction of the persons of the Trinity. My way of describing the distinctions is to say that the three persons of the Trinity are three distinct centers of willing. Christ makes this clear when he distinquishes his will from the Father's and yet subordinates his will to the Father's. Both distinction and submission. But true submission implies the distinction. The Spirit is also described in the NT as a distinct center of willing.
Anyway, if Gregory of Nyssa was not condemned as a tritheist (and he was not) then there is no reason to claim that I am one. I am simply repeating what he affirmed centuries ago.
QUITE TO THE CONTRARY -- and NOT along the line of the "historical sense of the term "tritheism" you mentioned, but the sense which I was mentioning -- I think that Gregory of Nyssa's writting takes your possition TO TASK!
SEE THE BOLDS
www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-05/Npnf2-05-28.htm#P2559_1755103
quote: Gregory of Nyssa
On "Not Three Gods"
. . . . .
Hence it is clear that by any of the terms we use the Divine nature itself is not signified, but some one of its surroundings is made known. For we say, it may be, that the Deity is incorruptible, or powerful, or whatever else we are accustomed to say of Him. But in each of these terms we find a peculiar sense, fit to be understood or asserted of the Divine nature, yet not expressing that which that nature is in its essence...
For the subject, whatever it may be, is incorruptible: but our conception of incorruptibility is this,-that that which is, is not resolved into decay: so, when we say that He is incorruptible, we declare what His nature does not suffer, but we do not express what that is which does not suffer corruption. Thus, again, if we say that He is the Giver of life, though we show by that appellation what He gives, we do not by that word declare what that is which gives it. And by the same reasoning we find that all else which results from the significance involved in the names expressing the Divine attributes either forbids us to conceive what we ought not to conceive of the Divine nature, or teaches us that which we ought to conceive of it, but does not include an explanation of the nature itself. Since, then, as we perceive the varied operations of the power above us, we fashion our appellations from the several operations that are known to us, and as we recognize as one of these that operation of surveying and inspection, or, as one might call it, beholding, whereby He surveys all things and overlooks them all, discerning our thoughts, and even entering by His power of contemplation into those things which are not visible, we suppose that Godhead, or qeo/thj, is so called from qe/a, or beholding, and that He who is our qeath/j or beholder, by customary use and by the instruction of the Scriptures, is called qeo/j, or God. Now if any one admits that to behold and to discern are the same thing, and that the God Who superintends all things, both is and is called the superintender of the universe, let him consider this operation, and judge whether it belongs to one of the Persons whom we believe in the Holy Trinity, or whether the power extends8 throughout the Three Persons. For if our interpretation of the term Godhead, or qeo/thj, is a true one, and the things which are seen are said to be beheld, or qeata/, and that which beholds them is called qeo/j, or God, no one of the Persons in the Trinity could reasonably be excluded from such an appellation on the ground of the sense involved in the word. For Scripture attributes the act of seeing equally to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. David says, "See, O God our defender9 ": and from this we learn that sight is a proper operation of the idea10 of God, so far as God is conceived, since he says, "See, O God." But Jesus also sees the thoughts of those who condemn Him, and questions why by His own power He pardons the sins of men? for it says, "Jesus, seeing their thoughts11 ." And of the Holy Spirit also, Peter says to Ananias, "Why hath Satan filled thine heart, to lie to the Holy Ghost?12 " showing that the Holy Spirit was a true witness, aware of what Ananias had dared to do in secret, and by Whom the manifestation of the secret was made to Peter. For Ananias became a thief of his own goods, secretly, as he thought, from all men, and concealing his sin: but the Holy Spirit at the same moment was in Peter, and detected his intent, dragged down as it was to avarice, and gave to Peter front Himself13 the power of seeing the secret, while it is clear that He could not have done this had He not been able to behold hidden things. But some one will say that the proof of our argument does not yet regard the question. For even if it were granted that the name of "Godhead" is a common name of the nature, it would not be established that we should not speak of "Gods": but by these arguments, on the contrary, we are compelled to speak of "Gods": for we find in the custom of mankind that not only those who are partakers14 in the same nature, but even any who may be of the same business, are not, when they are many, spoken of in the singular; as we speak of "many orators," or "surveyors," or "farmers," or "shoemakers," and so in all other cases. If, indeed, Godhead were an appellation of nature, it would be more proper, according to the argument laid down, to include the Three Persons in the singular number, and to speak of "One God," by reason of the inseparability and indivisibility of the nature: but since it has been established by what has been said, that the term "Godhead" is significant of operation, and not of nature, the argument from what has been advanced seems to turn to the contrary conclusion, that we ought therefore all the more to call those "three Gods" who are contemplated in the same operation, as they say that one would speak of "three philosophers" or "orators," or any other name derived from a business when those who take part in the same business are more than one.
I have taken some pains, in setting forth this view, to bring forward the reasoning on behalf of the adversaries, that our decision may be the more firmly fixed, being strengthened by the more elaborate contradictions. Let us now resume our argument.
As we have to a certain extent shown by our statement that the word "Godhead" is not significant of nature but of operation, perhaps one might reasonably allege as a cause why, in the case of men, those who share with one another in the same pursuits are enumerated and spoken of in the plural, while on the other hand the Deity is spoken of in the singular as one God and one Godhead, even though the Three Persons are not separated from the significance expressed by the term "Godhead,"-one might allege, I say, the fact that men, even if several are engaged in the same form of action, work separately each by himself at the task he has undertaken, having no participation in his individual action with others who are engaged in the same occupation. For instance, supposing the case of several rhetoricians, their pursuit, being one, has the same name in the numerous cases: but each of those who follow it works by himself, this one pleading on his own account, and that on his own account. Thus, since among men the action of each in the same pursuits is discriminated, they are properly called many, since each of them is separated from the others within his own environment, according to the special character of his operation. But in the case of the Divine nature we do not similarly learn that the Father does anything by Himself in which the Son does not work conjointly, or again that the Son has any special operation apart from the Holy Spirit; but every operation which extends from God to the Creation, and is named according to our variable conceptions of it, has its origin from the Father, and proceeds through the Son, and is perfected in the Holy Spirit. For this reason the name derived from the operation is not divided with regard to the number of those who fulfil it, because the action of each concerning anything is not separate and peculiar, but whatever comes to pass, in reference either to the acts of His providence for us, or to the government and constitution of the universe, comes to pass by the action of the Three, yet what does come to pass is not three things. We may understand the meaning of this from one single instance. From Him, I say, Who is the chief source of gifts, all things which have shared in this grace have obtained their life. When we inquire, then, whence this good gift came to us, we find by the guidance of the Scriptures that it was from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet although we set forth Three Persons and three names, we do not consider that we have had bestowed upon us three lives, one from each Person separately; but the same life is wrought in us by the Father, and prepared by the Son, and depends on the will of the Holy Spirit. Since then the Holy Trinity fulfils every operation in a mannersimilar to that of which I have spoken, not by separate action according to the number of the Persons, but so that there is one motion and disposition of the good will which is communicated from the Father through the Son to the Spirit (for as we do not call those whose operation gives one life three Givers of life, neither do we call those who are contemplated in one goodness three Good beings, nor speak of them in the plural by any of their other attributes); so neither can we call those who exercise this Divine and superintending power and operation towards ourselves and all creation, conjointly and inseparably, by their mutual action, three Gods. For as when we learn concerning the God of the universe, from the words of Scripture, that He judges all the earth15 , we say that He is the Judge of all things through the Son: and again, when we hear that the Father judgeth no man16 , we do not think that the Scripture is at variance with itself,-(for He Who judges all the earth does this by His Son to Whom He has committed all judgment; and everything which is done by the Only-begotten has its reference to the Father, so that He Himself is at once the Judge of all things and judges no man, by reason of His having, as we said, committed all judgment to the Son, while all the judgment of the Son is conformable to the will of the Father; and one could not properly say either that They are two judges, or that one of Them is excluded from the authority and power implied in judgment);-so also in the case of the word "Godhead," Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God, and that very power of superintendence and beholding which we call Godhead, the Father exercises through the Only-begotten, while the Son perfects every power by the Holy Spirit, judging, as Isaiah says, by the Spirit of judgment and the Spirit of burning17 , and acting by Him also, according to the saying in the Gospel which was spoken to the Jews. For He says, "If I by the Spirit of God cast out devils18 "; where He includes every form of doing good in a partial description, by reason of the unity of action: for the name derived from operation cannot be divided among many where the result of their mutual operation is one.
So where are we on this?
quote: POW, I appreciate your concern, but I have to say your presentation is far more dogmatic than it than biblical. I really do understand what you are saying and I simply disagree. You might be surprised to find that Greg would differ with me (in your direction) in that he resists making distinctions of will between the persons of God. I may change my mind on this (after all God does this occasionally ) but it would be for biblical reasons (and within the scope of accepted tradition, not simply the majority voice of a given period, but that which is deemed acceptable), not simply dogmatic assertions.
. . .
Anyway, I am open to dialogue, but not so much to dogmatic dismissal. No offense taken. Really. But neither do I grant that you represent the tradition accurately, let alone authoritatively.
Blessings brother. Modes
I'm not proof texting here; just reading the piece by the Gregory that is not in Minnesota. But its ME and the TWO GREGORYs. Are you going to re-think this NOW???
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 6/16/2003 4:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress, I am extremely sad. You see I only take ONE week off a year and the ONE week I take off this year, you start a SEX IN HEAVEN thread and I miss out on ALL the fun. 
Last one to the party and everyone's gone.


Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  S.B.G. Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 143 | Posted 6/16/2003 4:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | Laika,
I was wondering where you were!!
So many opportunities to make wise cracks and not a one was given!
Glad you're back! 
S.B.G.
To understand and to be understood is bliss. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 6/16/2003 5:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Laika,
I was wondering where you were!!
So many opportunities to make wise cracks and not a one was given!
Glad you're back! 
S.B.G.
Thanks. So many missed chances in this thread. Maybe God wanted it that way. A lot of good, serious, responses were given.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through? | | Back to Top | | |
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