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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2003 5:07 PM (GMT -6)

www.arimathea.co.uk/all.htm

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 6/20/2003 2:58 AM (GMT -6)

From the aforementioned webpage:

"Day by day we worship the Saints..."

Is this biblical?

-S

"Your love will kill me." Lyrics by Luc Plamondon for Notre-Dame de Paris, based on The Hunchback of Notre-Dame by Victor Hugo.

honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 6/22/2003 5:36 PM (GMT -6)

I believe most of us call that idolatry.

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/23/2003 6:06 PM (GMT -6)

"WORSHIP?"

quote:

From the aforementioned webpage:

"Day by day we worship the Saints..."

Is this biblical?

-S

Springs, midwesterners like you and I think of ANYTHING having to do with "worship" that is not refering to God... as idolotry. Writerdude too. BUT, that's not what http://www.arimathea.co.uk/all.htm is doing!!!

We would never call

Your "Worship." But we would call her "Your Honor." I think you can sense how that is getting close. (honor...worship)

And how would you expect to hear a judge addressed a country that actually knows how to speak "English?" There, a judge is always called: Your WORSHIP!

Mayors in Canada too! (All WITHOUT A TRACE of idolotry.)

quote:
...His Worship the Mayor Councillor John Steel opened the proceedings by welcoming the audience and the guest speakers who had travelled down from London for this important occasion. He referred to the date of the meeting coinciding with the publication decades ago of Bunyan's "Pilgrims Progress" and likened those present as pilgrims... http://www.threefaithsforum.org.uk/Press%20Releases/PressReleaseWinchester.htm

And when in New Zealand, do as the New Zealanders do!!!

http://www.courts.govt.nz/judiciary/forms_of_address.html

quote:
Justices of the Peace (Spoken - In Court)

First Spoken Reference: "His Worship" or "Her Worship"
Subsequent References: "His Worship" or "Her Worship"
Addressed Directly: "Your Worship"

Remember that if you get pulled over for driving on the right (literally the right--I think they use the left!) side of the street!

http://www.city.saskatoon.sk.ca/police/administration/annual.asp

quote:
We greatly appreciate the continued support of the Police Commission and His Worship Mayor Henry Dayday in ensuring the Saskatoon Police have the ability to provide excellent policing service to our community.

Amen!

Edited by - fred on 06/23/2003 11:08:43 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/23/2003 6:26 PM (GMT -6)

http://www.arimathea.co.uk/all.htm SAYS:

quote:
"And when the priest calls aloud from beyond the icon-screen "The Holy Things for the holy ones" we too are named among the saints, challenged to let that Breath breathe in and through us, that Wind blow us where It will, that Spirit live within our spirit, working within, transforming and re-creating us.

Send out Your Spirit, Lord, and we shall be created, and You will renew the face of the earth!"

It also says:

quote:
The Church worships...

It remembers David the penitent poet...

the martyred Maccabees hideously slaughtered rather than betray the Jewish Law...

It worships Moses who saw God...

Elias who heard His still, small voice...

Daniel who by His inspiration interpreted the writing on the wall at Belshazzar's blasphemous feast...

the three youths who sang to His glory, protected by His angel amidst the flames of Nabuchodonosor's furnace....

It worships Abraham, God's friend, Isaac His holy one and Jacob, His beloved...

and with them it worships the Matriarchs, Sarah, Rachel and Rebecca...

the Prophets who were His spokesmen among the people and the Judges on whom the Spirit rested to enable them to perform great deeds...

What is at work in these? Its as is said above: by the "Spirit, Lord, ...we shall be created, and You will renew the face of the earth" ... the "Spirit live within our spirit, working within, transforming and re-creating us."

In honoring those the Spirit works in we "WORSHIP" the GOD at work in them, and us.

AMEN!

Edited by - fred on 06/23/2003 11:31:46 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/23/2003 6:33 PM (GMT -6)

The Spirit blows where It will. The Church cannot trap It, nor the Mysteries cage It. She is the Mother of life, He is the Spirit of Sonship, It is the Breath that gives voice to the Word, the silent Interpreter that makes the Word burn within, consuming the dross, refining the gold.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/24/2003 6:13 PM (GMT -6)

Springs and honorman, I got to thinking...

We WORSHIP a human body.

quote:
Isaac Watts, 1707

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

His dying crimson, like a robe,
Spreads o’er His body on the tree;
Then I am dead to all the globe,
And all the globe is dead to me.

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

And Revelations chapter five says:

quote:
Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood [men] of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, 10 and madest them [to be] unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 saying with a great voice,

Worthy is the Lamb that hath been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might and honor, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying,

Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, [be] the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped.

The Apostle's Creed says:

quote:
I believe... He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

And this is what the Heidelberg Confession (Reformed) says:

quote:
18. Lord's Day
Q. 46. How dost thou understand these words, "he ascended into heaven"?
A. That Christ, in sight of his disciples, was taken up from earth into heaven; and that he continues there for our interest, until he comes again to judge the quick and the dead.

Q. 47. Is not Christ then with us even to the end of the world, as he has promised?
A. Christ is very man and very God; with respect to his human nature, he is no more on earth; but with respect to his Godhead, majesty, grace and spirit, he is at no time absent from us.

Q. 48. But if his human nature is not present, wherever his Godhead is, are not then these two natures in Christ separated from one another?
A. Not as all, for since the Godhead is illimitable and omnipresent, it must necessarily follow that the same is beyond the limits of the human nature he assumed, and yet is nevertheless in this human nature, and remains personally united to it.

Q. 49. Of what advantage to us is Christ's ascension into heaven?
A. First, that he is our advocate in the presence of his Father in heaven; secondly, that we have our flesh in heaven as a sure pledge that he, as the head, will also take up to himself, us, his members; thirdly, that he sends us his Spirit as an earnest, by whose power we "seek the things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God, and not things on earth."

19. Lord's Day
Q. 50. Why is it added, "and sitteth at the right hand of God"?
A. Because Christ is ascended into heaven for this end, that he might appear as head of his church, by whom the Father governs all things.

Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 6/25/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6)

Fred wrote: Springs, midwesterners like you and Ithink of ANYTHING having to do with "worship" that is not refering to God... as idolotry.

Fred, I’m not sure what you and I being Midwesterners has to do with it. I think it's about being Christian. ‘sides don’t y’all know in mah heart ah’ll always be a sahtherner?

What does it matter if “people” who speak real “English” use worship as a title? I was asking for a scriptural basis for worshipping saints, not a lesson on etiquette in secular governments.

When did you move to New Zealand?

Listen, I’m all for honoring the saints, and yes, we can honor them as we worship God for the outpouring of his spirit on them, us, etc. but to go from there to worshipping the saints is not only a stretch, it’s not biblical.

And that last part about us Worshipping Christ’s body? That sounds like something Mary Magdeline did before she got saved. J I haven’t ever worshipped his body. But, I suppose if I had, why then, I could say since the church is the body of Christ I should worship the church too, and then I could interpret that to mean the individuals who make up the church, and then pretty soon I could just cut to the chase, and kneel down in front of my old Norwegian uncle Sven when he comes over for lefsa Saturday night and then skip going to church Sunday all together.

Can I get an amen?

Springs

"Your love will kill me." Lyrics by Luc Plamondon for Notre-Dame de Paris, based on The Hunchback of Notre-Dame by Victor Hugo.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/25/2003 6:46 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Springs

Listen, I’m all for honoring the saints, and yes, we can honor them as we worship God for the outpouring of his spirit on them, us, etc. but to go from there to worshipping the saints is not only a stretch, it’s not biblical.

You MISSED the point. Nothing in what was said suggested even remotely (within the culture and the language used by the British website you clicked to.) that they "worshiped" anyone but God in the way that you are using the word worship. As for my writing "you and I as Midwest..."--I was putting us in the same boat. That's all. As to New Zealand, I "Googled" my way over to it looking up the usage of "worship" from "English" ussage. (This is only a problem in English!!!) Here's what that site says by way of differentiation:

quote:
The English word "adoration" translates the Greek word "latreia" or the Latin "adoratio" or "adoratio latriae". Adoration is due to God and to God alone. Adoration is a mode of worship that springs from the acknowledgement of our absolute dependency on God and on our mere contingency as created beings.

quote:
Adoration is a mode of worship.

The Reformation rejection of the cult of the saints and of their relics and of the sacred images left no other mode of worship in Protestant and Reformed communities. No distinction came to be made by Protestants between adoration and the other lesser, relative modes of worship, since none of them survived in their religious practice. Nonetheless, the older, broader concept of worship still survived and survives. In England we call the mayor "your Worship," without any suggestion we are acknowledging her or him as the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. In the old version of the Marriage service the bridegroom said to his bride "with my body I thee worship," the pledge of allegiance made by a lord declared himself the monarch's "man of earthly worship." Neither monarch nor bride was expected to interpret this as an act of adoration, of latreia.

Roman Catholic communities in Great Britain ... kept alive the older use of the word "worship" as the generic term of which adoration is the supreme mode, but not the only mode.

quote:
Worship has a variety of modes. All forms of worship have a cognitive aspect - a recognition that reverence and honour are due to the object of our worship by reason of its relation to God - as well as a practical aspect, the words, gestures and postures that represent the honour and reverence we pay to the object of our worship.

Adoration is the unique mode of worship offered to God alone. We adore none other. Adoration involves acknowledgement of God as Creator and Sustainer of all that is, as our ruler and shepherd and as the sole source of our salvation. It involves more than mere acknowledgement of the reality of our relation to the Almighty: adoration involves praise and thanksgiving, celebration and petition.

Now, Springs, I do not expect you to "adore" the Bible. But do you (if you've been paying attention) "worship" it in church? Does your pastor say "The Word of the Lord" and does the congregtion respond by saying "Thanks be to God?" Do you stand when you hear it read. It is an icon of Christ -- the Loving Word. We adore Christ, but we worship the icon of His salvation -- the Gospels. Don't we?

You wrote: "'worship' that is not refering to God... as idolotry." But that is not true. Its bad Anglish. The true statement is: "adoration that is not offered to God is idolotry!"

Springs, you also wrote BOTH "I was asking for a scriptural basis for worshipping saints" AND "I’m all for honoring the saints . . . honor them as we worship God for the outpouring of his spirit on them." I think that you answered your own question. Remember: worship saints; don't adore them.

As to Christ's body: THAT seems like just the kind of discussion THIS board loves. Lets start with an educated knowledge of what "worship" really is, and agree that Mary Magdeline really did "worship" Christ’s body when she honored it with expensive purfumes and tears and hair-wipes. But... do we do more than honor God's own body? Do we adore it? You yourself have sung, more than once, "Come let us adore him, Christ the Lord. Sing choirs of angels..." Do you want to take it back?

Do you want to re-write the Book of Revelations too?

But, one last thing. You said: I suppose if I had, why then, I could say since the church is the body of Christ I should worship the church too, and then I could interpret that to mean the individuals who make up the church. Not far off. A very STRONG admonition is called for to focus on the glorified body of the resurrected Lord. But as to the Body of Christ...

Greet one another with a Holy Kiss!

Edited by - fred on 06/25/2003 11:51:21 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/25/2003 6:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
All acts of worship draw us ultimately to the worship of God. We begin by venerating the icon of a saint, and are drawn eventually to the adoration of the God whose work the saint is, and in Whom the saint is glorified.

http://www.arimathea.co.uk/worship.htm

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 6/25/2003 7:12 AM (GMT -6)

Why shouldn't we start with the "veneration" of God, and then be drawn deeper into ultimate admiration of him, after which, we could worship him for his annointing of the saints and honor their memory as those faithful to his call?

-S

I serious love where you end up, but you understand my trouble with the route you take to get there. I praise God for my flowers, and they draw me into adoring him, but I wouldn't worship a wisteria.

"Your love will kill me." Lyrics by Luc Plamondon for Notre-Dame de Paris, based on The Hunchback of Notre-Dame by Victor Hugo.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/25/2003 8:17 AM (GMT -6)

Springs: you understand my trouble with the route you take to get there

PoW: YES. That's why I said "You and I."

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/19/2003 5:25 PM (GMT -6)

With friends from church (Reformed) we were discussing prayers, who says them, and who they are said for...

Reformed seem most comfortable with taking people off of the prayer list upon death. The Orthodox keep on praying for those they love. Reformed liturgy mentions worshiping WITH "all the saints and angels." But more sense of the WHOLE church would be a productive developement.

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