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|  0CT0R0K Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 50 | Posted 6/22/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | this is taken from a livejournal community. this guy says he has "all the facts" about christianity.
quote: Testing The True Christian. The Question
So what is a non-believer to do today with all these seemingly dizzy people claiming to be Christians? We test them to see if they really are--- we wouldn't want to be deceived by demons pretending to be Christians, now would we? Of course not!
Jesus says "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves." (Matt 7:15) Sounds pretty scary, yes? "Then if any man shall say to you Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here, believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the very elect." (Matt. 24:23-24)
John says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1st John 4:1)
There are many different types of Christian, of course. They all claim to be True Christians. How is the non-believer to know which is which? After all we want the real thing, a True Christian, not a demon from hell disguised as an angel of light. No Jim Bakkers or Jimmy Swaggarts will do. We want a real fool for Christ. How do we tell the True Christian from the disguised demon? The real thing from the money grabbers? We can do that with a little help. And this help comes from a very unexpected source. You see these Christian critters have a role model they follow. And they can't deviate from the model too much and hope to get to the heavenly entertainment park. Jesus, their role model has stated...
"Therefore by their fruits shall you know them. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And I will profess to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who work evil." (Matt 7:22-23)
So you can see that not every person who claims to be Christian will make it to that starry, wonder filled entertainment park they call "Heaven." Many True Christians tell me that many who claim to be True Christians are not Christians at all. There's just a little rivalry. It seems they are all in competition with each other for that last 144,000 condos-in-paradise. Now God knows how much real estate He has and how much it costs. Overpopulation being what it is today He has to oust some. Otherwise garbage over runs the golden streets, airborne pollution covers the crystal walls and the sewers back up. Yech!
As our volunteer testee saunters up visually apprise them. Do they look serious? Are their clothes nice? Do they look like they own property? Good. We're ready to start.
As the conversation starts let the testee know just where you stand: tell them you are going to test to see if they are really Christians, or are demons. You don't want to be duped. You want to talk to a true Christian. None other than a true Christian will do.
Ask our testee if they are a Christian? Are they a True Christian? Do they love Jesus? Is Jesus their Personal Lord and Savior? Yes? Good. Ask them how much they love Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. Are they Spirit filled? Do they display any of the fruits, love, joy, peace, happiness, etc. of the Spirit as described in Gal. 5:22-23?
Next we have to verify that they believe in the Bible. Ask our volunteer if they believe in the Bible. Do they believe that it is the Word of God? Is it infallible? Is the Bible as appropriate for today as it was two thousand years ago? If the answer is yes, even if not infallible, proceed with the test.
The Money Test
Here is the first performance test.
"Give to everyone that asketh thee; and from him that taketh away thy goods ask not again." (Luke 6:30)
"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." (Matt. 5:42)
Luke 6:35 sums it all up: "But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil."
True Christians are so fond of moral absolutes that I think we should give them every opportunity to experience those absolutes as real, upfront and personal events. In your next testing session, when you hear the True Christian extolling the Rock of Moral Absolutes upon which they stand, go for the cash. It has a nice sobering effect that should in the long run benefit the True Christian.
Ask for their money, all of it. Just ask for their wallet. Have them show it to you. Any money inside? Good. Ask for it. You don't want their credit cards. That would be a crime. If there's no money, ask for an article of clothing. Coats, cloaks, swords, and hand guns are good. How about car keys? Do they have a big cross with them? Ask for it.
When they refuse have them reread the previous verses, then ask again. Should they still refuse call them a fraud, for that's exactly what they are. Just like Jesus did, send them away into darkness. They aren't a True Christian.
Now should they give you everything in their wallet, the cloak on their back and the cross too, we get to the second test.
The Swill Test
Next we proceed with more subjective questions. One of their obsessive traits is to compare their past performance with the actions of those in the Bible. How is their walk with their Lord? Do they follow Jesus closely? Do they want to follow more closely? Yes? Good. Now we start with the serious tests.
In Matthew 10:18 Jesus sends out his True Disciples with the commandments to "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out devils." Take a skeptical attitude about their status as a True Christian. Again let them know that you want only the real thing. No substitutes will be allowed.
"And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay their hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17-18)
On this you gotta' be a little careful not to let the cat out of the bag. Ask your friend if they have cast out demons. Do they speak with tongues? Have they laid their hands on sick persons who were healed?
If so take a bottle from storage prepared especially for the test. It should be filled with rat poison or arsenic. Cap the bottle tightly while in storage. And for Gawds sake hide it from the non-christian children. In the Bible read Mark 16:17-18 which says that True Christians can pick up serpents and drink harmful things without suffering. Ask our unsuspecting testee to chug the whole bottle. If they object saying "thou shalt not test God" respond by saying that you are testing them, not God. God is not around to be tested anyway. If they refuse to drink the poison, you can safely assume they are not a True Christian, only a fraud. Send them away as the demons they are.
A note of warning... Be sure to inform the True Christian the drink is deadly poison. Let them pick up the bottle for themselves. If they drink the potion they take the test of their own free will.
Now some might protest that the last part of Mark is a 'late addition' not found in the earlier texts. Perhaps they have confessed to you previously that the Bible is the word of God and is infallible. What happened? Didn't the believe the Bible? Tell them they aren't a True Christian; they are frauds. Send them home with their tails between their legs.
Conclusion
As we can readily see it's not healthy to be a True Christian. A True Christian is equivalent to being a Bibliolater-- one who worships the Bible. Being a Christian is certainly not a problem with non-theists: it's just a problem for other theists. In all cases, we must separate the True Christians from the demons who pretend to be Christians--- God wants us to.
fun stuff.
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 |  0CT0R0K Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 50 | Posted 6/22/2003 4:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  John Earp Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1715 | Posted 6/22/2003 8:12 PM (GMT -6) |   | The Money Test
John responds
The context seems to be what the Christian attitude should be towards mistreatment and persecution. Of course if a Christian is confronted by someone begging, they ought to do what they can to help, so long as the Christian has provided for their family first (if they have a family). The New Testament also says that those who do not provide for their own household are worse than an infidel. So it does not seem that the New Testament, when taken as a whole, teaches that all Christians have to give all their money away. Also, Jesus seems to be speaking about a "loan," (and in the Luke 6:40 quote, theft) not every last bit of one's property.
The Swill Test
John responds
Even if the disputed Mark 16 passage is authentic, "drink any deadly thing," in that culture referred to forcing of people to drink poison as a means of persecution. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find Christians putting themselves to the test by drinking poison or by handling serpents. This passage, if in fact genuine, only gives a promise of general protection from harm for believers, not a promise of invincibility.
This "test" fails in that the mocker in question is in fact not in a political position to force the Christian in question to drink poison.
This skeptic's test of who is and who isn't a "True Christian" is rather like someone asking a professing Christian, "Would you still serve Christ if it meant you would be killed for your faith?"
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 06/23/2003 01:35:57 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  0CT0R0K Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 50 | Posted 6/23/2003 5:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thank you greatly, John for responding. 
I've invited this guy to come join us here at the GB Forums so his questions and objections could be answered more thoroughly (did i spell that right?), but he refuses and calls me a close-minded occultist who worships a paper God.
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 |  Laplace Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 138 | Posted 6/23/2003 6:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | 0CT0R0K,
I agree with the NT passages in the Gospels, James, etc. that tell us we can make a "probable" judgement call on the status of their Christianity. However, unless you subscribe to the notion that you can lose your salvation (I lean more towards the negative because subscribing to the positive implies some very disturbing conclusions and does not seem to be in synch with the Bible as a whole), it is never possible to make a "definite" judgement call on their salvation.
Throughout the Bible (and specifically 1 Kings 8:39) it states that God alone knows the hearts of men (also futher evidence for Christ's diety). Therefore, since salvation is a heart matter, only God truly knows if a Christian is really one or not. Everyone accepts that one can be a Believer and still struggle with sin.
Still, you do bring up a classic line argument that many use against Christians. It is as follows:
A. Christians accept the Bible as absolutely true (infallible) B. Therefore, anything in the Bible is absolutely true C. One can take multiple truths and arrive at a logical conclusion D. That logical conclusion must be absolutely true as well since it relied on absolutely true premises
However, as John Earp pointed out, this is a BAD way to approach the Bible just in as much as it is bad to translate a foreign language word by word (which relies on similar arguments). Context means just as much as the words themselves. Context both with surrounding verses as well as those not in the text themselves like the audience, time period, etc.
If we ignored context, we could easily concoct all sorts of "absolutely true" conclusions. Here are a couple of examples:
- Jesus said that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery - Jesus also confirmed that adultery is a permissable grounds for divorce - Therefore, any married man that ever looked lustfully at a woman ANY TIME during the marriage would be guilty of a Biblical divorce if the wife desired to do so (which geez, would include just about every married man on earth)
The context ignored of course is that the first premise was addressing how sin not always need manifest itself in the external. The latter was trying to actually protect marriages from divorces on trivial grounds (in that time divorces were commonplace and could be permitted even for something as minor as burning food!)
Here's another:
- Jesus said that with enough faith, nothing would be impossible for us - In James, it said with faith, one can become better if sick - Therefore, if someone who is sick dies despite faithful prayer, they died because they didn't have enough faith
The context lacking here is that it's ignoring God's sovereignty (see book of Job). What's sad though is that some churches actually adopt this strict interpretation.
Therefore, although I agree that we can get a "good idea" about who is a true believer and who is not, I believe that no one but God knows for sure. However, although there is no "litmus test", I think we can use some key indicators that we can use in the practical sense. Such would be (some may have more/less/others which is fine):
- Their views about Jesus (I John states that rejecting Christ as the Son of God is the same as rejecting God the Father [Jaweh, Allah, etc.]) - Their views about the Bible (if they feel they can just pick and choose things which are more palatable to them then it is essentially calling God a liar) - Signs of repentence (Repentence means literally a "turning around". One can know he/she is a sinner but unless they have that heart desire to do something about it is not repentence)
"it's dangerous out there. Take this (sword)" (Na na nah num...)
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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