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Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 7/1/2003 6:13 AM (GMT -6)

Hey all,

In the past, I've spent some time reading apologetics, namely McDowell, Montgomery, stuff like that. I've recently visited a few sites like www.didjesusexist.com and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/, both run by a guy named Peter Kirby, and another Site--something-infidels, but I forget the domain name.(A review of a debate Doc had with Price is listed on the "Did Jesus Exist" Site.)

Now, I haven't the time I wish I had to read these kinds of researched works, but it looks like the move to destroy Christianity has gone from what seemed to have been the more simpler attacks such as "We have no manuscript evidence before the third century" to legends and a tremendous amount of editing--the real climate and culture of the NT period--are legitimate as commentary on Jesus and the Bible; the vast amount of first-though-third century legends and myths prove the Biblical accounts of Jesus are such also. Further, almost all the Biblcal (and extra-Biblical) material referencing Jesus has been proven questionable as to authenticity because of the dishonesty in early Catholic editing of several documents to preserve Christianity."

I mean, it's one thing for the Jesus Seminar to deny the possibility of miracles--hence Jesus couldn't have performed a miracle--but this stuff has gotten much more thick and complicated. It's not as simple to defend from the old vanguard method, and it's ridiculously exhausting to digest it all. I contacted Josh McDowell's offices about a few rebuttles I found at the Infidel's Site of Evidence That Demands A Verdict. The rebuttle made claims that in many cases seemed to question the validity of McDowell's interpretations of the primary source references for Jesus and the Bible. All his office said was that Josh isn't going to take the time to address it; he feels the information in Evidence is sufficient in and of itself.

Well, okay, I understand he's busy, but someone should be at least responding to the attacks, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, it's a new field for me, because I've not had the exposure to this side of the attacks against Christianity. And what's disturbing to me is that the old arguments don't seem to address the issues the way they used to. Heavens, you have to have spent half your life reading the primary sources just to even talk the language. Who has time for all that? There's the need for a tremendous amount of scholarship and studying for a fresh defense.

So, first, what do those of you who've been to the sites, or are familiar with modern scholarship attacks against Christianity, think of this kind of research. Is the research as sound (though the conclusions may not be) as it's presented to be? What's a good strategy to begin studying this kind of research in order to gain an understanding of how these scholars are thinking?

Starkman

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 7/3/2003 4:31 PM (GMT -6)

Wha? Nobuddy respond?

I feel ... so hurt

Just Starkman (Woe is me!)

Terry_Baxter
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187

Posted 7/6/2003 6:11 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Starkmeister,

Don't be hurt. You did post during a busy holiday week. Maybe people are elsewhere.

Apologetics is one of my hobbies. I don't know a lot about Peter Kirby. It's hard for me to take seriously someone who questions the very existence of Jesus. Questioning his Godhood, miracles, exact words, or birth and death dates are all legitimate academic exercises.

Challenging the existence of Jesus is just as foolybear as challenging the existence of Julius Ceasar or Gallileo.

Josh McDowell accumulated a lot of good evidence and came up with a good title. As an apologist, he makes a good journalist. Here's a link to a website where JM basically says _Evidence That Demands A Verdict_ is a research tool, not an apologetic resource.

http://www.tektonics.org/lowder03.html

For a more scholarly approach to textual criticism, you might try Bill Craig's website:

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/historical.html

There are a lot of apologetics ministries with websites, but I don't know any off hand that specialize in archaeological and textual criticism of Jesus' existence. I'll try to look a few up and you can send me email for a list.

I like the final question you ask, but I don't have an easy answer. There are often reviews of books that give a nice overview of a person's thoughts. Doug Groothuis has mastered that literary form. So maybe look for works cited on the websites, and search for reviews from evangelical scholars?

Terry

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 7/7/2003 3:53 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Terry,

Sheesh! I was just looking at Craig's site the other day. I saw that link on his site for the articles on the historical Jesus, and I ran right over it (thought it was just on Jesus Seminar). I'll have to go back there now and double-check it! Thanks.

Doug Groothuis, eh. Hmm. Never heard of him. I'll check into him.

Yeah, the stuff that I'm mostly bothered by is the approach to Jesus that says, "We really can't know much about him, because what we do know isn't real reliable information," and the research goes about attempting to destroy the reliability and integrity of the primary sources that are usually quoted to infer something about the existence of Jesus. As I noted above, it's one thing to deal with presuppostions (vis., miracles can't happen, therefore Jesus didn't do miracles), but it's a different war to fight when someone's saying that their research doesn't substantiate credibility within the primary sources themselves.

Oh, I get tired just thinking of it, and it's only Monday!

Thanks Terry,

Starkman

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 7/7/2003 4:23 AM (GMT -6)

Terry,

It's funny you should mention www.tektonics.org J.P. Holding (James Patrick Holding) is an old e-mail buddy of mine. About 5-6 years ago, I had a debate with an atheist concerning the doctrine of the atonement. I required some help and input with some objections that were brought forth and so I turned to J.P.

Needless to say, I think I should have left J.P. out because he can be quite obnoxious at times (as you can tell from the tone of his posts on his website). Whereas I can be patient and "work with" someone for extended periods of time, J.P. can be confrontational. I love 'im, but I think the skeptic mentioned in the link below was turned off to Christianity when J.P. came on board (I know because we had some e-mail exchanges as a result of this debate in the link). I suppose you learn as you go.

By the way, person "X" is yours truly.

www.tektonics.org/JPH_DTW02_FWBR.html

Also, a second "by the way." I also did a few book reviews for him. Two were on Greg's books. One was on Greg's "God at War."

www.tektonics.org/GB.GAW_0830818855.html

I think Greg would disagree with what I say about "structural evil" from what I know of his views concerning government. This was probably the weakest point of my review.

The other was:

www.tektonics.org/GB.JUS_1564765334.html

Here are the other reviews:

www.tektonics.org/PC.CGG_0830816860.html
www.tektonics.org/PC.TFY_0764220918.htm

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

Terry_Baxter
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187

Posted 7/9/2003 1:26 PM (GMT -6)

Wow Brandon. I didn't know I was in the presence of celebrity!

Well, other than Greg.

I'll have to read your book reviews when I get a chance.

Hey Starkman, you might check out this site. I haven't reviewed it, but at first glance it seems useful.

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/about.html

Terry
"As a disclaimer to everything I've ever said or everything I ever will say, when it's all said and done we'll only have two things left to say: One is `Forgive me' and the other is `Thank you."' --Rich Mullins

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 7/10/2003 5:15 AM (GMT -6)

Baxter man,

I ... think I have that site bookmarked, but I'm not at home to double-check. Thanks much.

Starkman

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