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|  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 7/24/2003 7:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi All, I used to post on a different theology debate website and one person who called himself a pagan said that his god(s) doesn't expect praise and worship from anyone and for the Christian God to expect or demand it is selfish and makes Him unworthy of that worship.
That argument totally blew me away. The thing that I said that caused him to say this was, "Christians believe we must give God His due worship. That's one of the main reasons we go to church."
His response was one that I thought deserves some deeper thought. What do all of you who are Christian think about this?
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 7/24/2003 7:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress
quote:
I used to post on a different theology debate website and one person who called himself a pagan said that his god(s) doesn't expect praise and worship from anyone and for the Christian God to expect or demand it is selfish and makes Him unworthy of that worship.
So, for example, if his pagan god were to heal his child, he wouldn't bother to thank his pagan god?
What a happy household he must live in.
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 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 7/24/2003 7:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Tigress
quote:
I used to post on a different theology debate website and one person who called himself a pagan said that his god(s) doesn't expect praise and worship from anyone and for the Christian God to expect or demand it is selfish and makes Him unworthy of that worship.
So, for example, if his pagan god were to heal his child, he wouldn't bother to thank his pagan god?
What a happy household he must live in.

Well, I think he'd probably thank his god for something like that, but overall, he wouldn't make daily worship a part of his "religious duties." I think he just sees it as arrogant for God to expect it, even if He fully deserves it.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 7/24/2003 7:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | I guess I'm just wondering how to respond to an argument like this. I mean, you can't just say that worshipping God is not required because it really is - not for salvation, but as a response to it. Yet, what can you say to someone who sees that as a reason not to accept Jesus?
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  might-be-don Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 830 | Posted 7/24/2003 7:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress,
Let's pretend for a moment that no god exists...
How would you go about worshipping something? ( maybe a rock star, maybe one of your favorite teachers, maybe your car )
I'll start you off:
If I worshipped a rock star I would try to be at everyone of their concerts.
You now.
peace, don
--- "You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 7/24/2003 8:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Tigress,
Let's pretend for a moment that no god exists...
How would you go about worshipping something? ( maybe a rock star, maybe one of your favorite teachers, maybe your car )
I'll start you off:
If I worshipped a rock star I would try to be at everyone of their concerts.
You now.
peace, don
--- "You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus
Well, I think this guy's point was that it's audacious for ANYONE to presume to deserve or demand worship. So, trying to create analogies probably wouldn't help here. But, nice try, though!
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/24/2003 8:16 AM (GMT -6) |   | He does not sound "pagan" -- for whom there is some hope...they seek God. Rather, he sounds atheism -- which is something much more demonic. (I wanted to point out the comparison; not imply that I know enough about him. Sorry if I went too far!!!)
Whether he "gives thanks" for what is given him -- for both "Christian" and none -- is a good watershed. Many of us are "practicing atheists" to our shame.
A point to be made is whether or not he believes in the RESURRECTION (and with that they healing of mankind) or not. All certainly have the NEED of that. The Gospel is that God has raised mankind from the dead in the Person of His Son Jesus Christ. He was "raised for our justification." (Romans)
THAT news can be allowed to soak in, and be watered now and then... | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 7/24/2003 8:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: I used to post on a different theology debate website and one person who called himself a pagan said that his god(s) doesn't expect praise and worship from anyone and for the Christian God to expect or demand it is selfish and makes Him unworthy of that worship.
Find out EXACTLY who (as in a person) his god(s) is. Non-personal beings do not make requests ... of any kind, much less ask to be worshiped.
Common sense would say that it's not going to to any good for the God of Christianity to be worshiped; what's He going to get out of it that He doesn't already have?! (We don't get anything out of it either--it doesn't add/subract from our beings to worship or not worship; it is an expression of something already inside us.) The Christian God has insisted that we love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, because if we do so, we will choose to love something else just as strongly. It is, therefore, for our own good that we are called to worship God.
Further, it kind of makes sense that if the God of the Bible is God, then our worship is a means of respecting that, as well as all He's done for us. To the extent one is devoted to God is to the extent one worships (He who has been forgiven much loves much).
Finally, this pagan has contradicted his statement; for when he/she says, his god(s) doesn't expect praise and worship from anyone and for the Christian God to expect or demand it is selfish and makes Him unworthy of that worship, he/she doesn't realize that he (I'm going to go with the masculine pronoun, okay!) is worshiping by the very act of having chosen gods for himself and a system which both supports and expresses said support as "worth" doing so. The original meaning of worship is worth-ship: the asribing of worth to something. HOW this pagan chooses to express it is neither here nor there. He is showing worth to his god(s) and is expressing it in the manner of the custom of his religion: worship!
Never let someone confine worship to only the Christian expression of the word!
Hope this helps.
For worship the One True and Only God,
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 07/24/2003 1:20:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  DLW Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 2457 | Posted 7/24/2003 9:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is the sort of link where we give support to each other in our apologeticking experiences that I was talking about earlier!!!
As I understand it, paganism isn't an atheism. It is a theism that stands outside of Christianity. This dude has issues(obviously) and that affects how he sees God.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh, You-uh-scream-uh, We-all-uh-sceam-uh for Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur Cuntry! Roberto Benigni in Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laplace Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 138 | Posted 7/24/2003 10:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress,
His main argument seems to be the following:
- We don't know if many God/gods exist or there even is one at all - If there WERE only one God, wouldn't He/She/It make it more obvious to EVERYONE rather than letting the majority chase their interpretation of who God is? - Since it's not obvious to everyone (by the variation in religions), it is "rude" to assume that our God as we know Him is the only one around or our view of Him is the only view, and that He alone deserves our worship.
This is a variation on the "If God is a good God, then why would He permit evil?" argument. Why would a true God permit false worship if there is only one?
No easy answers of course, but perhaps a suggestion to ask your friend is what is more important to him: Believing in something that's true, or believing something that's makes you feel better. If it's the former, ask him why he thinks his viewpoint is true. If the latter, ask him why a Christian then can't do the same for his religion. It'll force him to realize (hopefully) that his religion is primarly self-centered even though he may not admit it, or that tolerance is more important than truth.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 7/24/2003 10:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Tigress,
His main argument seems to be the following:
- We don't know if many God/gods exist or there even is one at all - If there WERE only one God, wouldn't He/She/It make it more obvious to EVERYONE rather than letting the majority chase their interpretation of who God is? - Since it's not obvious to everyone (by the variation in religions), it is "rude" to assume that our God as we know Him is the only one around or our view of Him is the only view, and that He alone deserves our worship.
This is a variation on the "If God is a good God, then why would He permit evil?" argument. Why would a true God permit false worship if there is only one?
No easy answers of course, but perhaps a suggestion to ask your friend is what is more important to him: Believing in something that's true, or believing something that's makes you feel better. If it's the former, ask him why he thinks his viewpoint is true. If the latter, ask him why a Christian then can't do the same for his religion. It'll force him to realize (hopefully) that his religion is primarly self-centered even though he may not admit it, or that tolerance is more important than truth.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment
Thanks for your thoughts. I actually don't go to that website anymore because most of the people there were talking in terms that were far above my thinking abilities. Actually this site is pretty much the same! But I kept thinking about what that guy said and I just wondered what other Christians might say to him, because I sure as heck couldn't come up with anything.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  DLW Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 2457 | Posted 7/24/2003 12:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | You do have a good spirit of encouragement and the points you bring up are valid.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh, You-uh-scream-uh, We-all-uh-sceam-uh for Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur Cuntry! Roberto Benigni in Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  might-be-don Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 830 | Posted 7/24/2003 1:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | I think it's quite clear...
God doesn't expect or demand our worship.
In Christ He's proven Himself worthy of it. This is 'good news' , too bad we don't hear it often enough. Maybe this guy would understand it if we were preaching the gospel.
peace, don
--- "You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Terry_Baxter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 187 | Posted 7/24/2003 2:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress,
I'm sitting here smiling because this topic really made me think. I'd encourage you to stay posting on the other website because, often, people who can ask good questions are more valuable participants than those who can post a lot with big words. You are one of those valuable people.
The idea that if we don't praise God, the rocks will cry out to do it suggests that this universe is created to praise God. In that sense, the pagan's argument is not that different from saying "a God who creates gravity doesn't deserve to be called a God." Praise for the I AM is part of the fundamental order of existence.
Also, the Bible suggests that everyone who has even been close to God's (reflected) glory has fallen down, being overwhelmed. In other words, the people who do see God for who God is, have offered praise. That further suggests that those of us who don't praise God do so simply because we fail to understand God's nature. If the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, then an appreciation of the greatness and praiseworthiness of God is really to understand the nature of ourselves and many other things.
I suspect your pagan also leans on a bad defintion of humility. Humility isn't denying you are praiseworthy when you are (the Bible makes this clear: "don't think more highly of yourselves than you ought to"). Humility is knowing your worth, neither over- nor underestimating it. If God has infinity worth (which is precisely why, along with John Earp I deny that humans have infinite worth), then God is fully deserving of infinite, universal, neverending praise.
Terry If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go, because, man, they're gone. - Jack Handey
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 7/24/2003 5:35 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: don
I think it's quite clear...
God doesn't expect or demand our worship.
Have to disagree!
quote: (From James F. White’s “Protestant Worship and Church Architecture” in Chapter One -- Two Approaches To Worship )
It will be helpful to explore very briefly the significance of work in Christianity, particularly as it is expressed in the Bible. The contemporary notion of work as a laborious necessity, .a necessary evil, is far from the understanding of work expressed in the Bible. Not only does the Bible view work as a normal part of life but it also'becomes the means by which man serves God. Psalm 104 speaks of the coherent functioning of God's universe in which "Man goes forth to his work and to his labor until evening" as naturally as the sun rises and sets. The fourth cornmandment states in positive terms: "Six days you shall labor, and do all your work." Work then seems to be a natural and normal part of creation.13 The soil was cursed in the account of man's fall but not the toil of man who had been placed in the Garden. "to till it and keep it." 13 Alan Richardson, The Biblical Doctrine of Work (London: S.C.M., ^^.pp. 25-9.
Work has additional significance since the Hebrew viewed God as One Who works. Psalm 104 is an eloquent praise of God for His works which create nature and provide for His creatures:
"These all look to thee, to give them their food in due season." The psalmist praises God, "0 Lord, how manifold are thy works!" and sees God as rejoicing in His works. The concepts of God's works and acts on behalf of His people run through both Old and New Testaments. For the Christian this is seen supremely in God's acting through the person of Jesus in the time of the first century.
Man is placed in the world not simply as an autonomous worker in an indifferent universe but in a place where he acts as a servant of God. The Old Testament is particularly fond of referring to God's people as God's servants. "Ye servants of God, your Master proclaim," wrote Charles Wesley, echoing the language of the Old Testament. The character of a servant, of course, is that of someone who works for someone else. One serves God through one's treatment of his fellow servants, especially in labor which is beneficial to them.
The line between the work of worship and the work of earning a livelihood is a very fine distinction since both are part of man's proper service to God. The manner in which one treats his neighbor is directly a part of his relationship to God. A New Testament passage indicates, "As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" (Matt. 25:40). Work as service of God is by no -means limited to the work of worship. In the New Testament the same word is used for worship, acts of charity, and the work of the pagan civil authorities. All this work serves God in performing a beneficial service for mankind. Luther captured the same idea when he stated that all Christians. are priests to each other, "and every one by means of his own. work or office must benefit and serve every other." 14 14 "An Open Letter to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation," Works of Martin Luther (Philadelphia ed.; Philadelphia: Muhlenberg, 1943), II, p. 69.
Each member of society performs services that are beneficial-to the community and in so doing serves God.
There are several reasons why the special work of worship is necessary. In the first place there is an inevitability-about worship as man worships spontaneously out of joy and gladness. "To have a God," said Luther, "is simply to trust and believe in one with our whole heart." 15 It seems only natural that a life changed by such trust and belief should focus its response to God in acts of worship. The work of worship then becomes a spontaneous reaction of joy as suggested in Psalm 98, "0 sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous things!" Worship becomes an acknowledgment of God's love in which man shows his trust in Him Who first loved man. In this manner worship has as its purpose the glorification of God Who is its recipient. Indeed, to glorify God may well be interpreted as one of the chief ends of man's life. 15 Dr. Martin Luther's Large Catechism (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1935), p. 44.
In another way, the work of worship is done as obedience. There is a sense in which love obligates us to respond with action, a sense known to every husband who voluntarily washes dishes. Yet worship never becomes a good work that obligates God to reward us, any more than one can bargain for love. God's love always precedes our response.
In the Old Testament the covenantal relationship reflected the belief that to be God's possession His people were called to be "a ' kingdom of priests and' a holy nation," an idea reflected in the New Testament as "a royal priesthood, a holy nation." The worst deed God's people could do was to worship other gods besides the "Lord your God." Such acts'so polluted their relationship' with God that the covenant was broken. Those who disobeyed by worshiping other gods were rejected. Hosea represented God as calling them, "Not my people, for you are not my people and I am not your God." The only Old Testament alternative to the worship of God was idolatry, the worship of false gods, not atheism, the service of none. Worship then was a part of the life of God's servant, a work based upon obligation though the work might be most joyful. Thus a child sometimes does the will of his parent with pleasure though it still remains an act of obedience.
Worship as obedience is not tied to the performance of any special form of worship. It is the imperative to do worship that is fundamental not the prescription of its forms. The communion services of several denominations include the phrase that it is "our bounden duty, that we should at all, times, and in all places, give thanks." In this sense of a "bounden duty," worship becomes an act of obedience performed as a part of man's proper service to God. Worship, then, can be seen as something done simply as a duty to God rather than carried out to accomplish some purpose.
There is another manner in which worship appears as a matter of work. This is in connection with the concept of sacrifice. Actually sacrifice in the Old Testament (and New) involves an immense variety of ideas. We can only touch briefly on a few of these. In one fashion sacrifice is a giving of ourselves through something that we do or have produced. We refer to our worship as a "sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving," for in performing these acts we are offering our work. What is given, however, is a token of the total life and work of the giver. And it is not lost but received back with the power of God, much as the bread and wine in holy communion, which are offered to God, are blessed, broken, and then given back to God's people conveying new power. What has been given, our work "of worship as a part of our life surrendered, is given back as new life achieved.16
Another concept of sacrifice seems to be of particular interest to Christians. This is the idea that in our work of worship, in offering "our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving," we are united to Christ's sacrifice for our behalf on the cross. St. Augustine points out that in what the Church offers (her worship), "she herself is offered in the very offering she makes to God." "These concepts are particularly germane to the holy communion. A modern French Protestant speaks of this sacrament as "the offering which the Church makes of itself to the Father, united to the Son's intercession." "What is offered is our own work of worship, but through this we are united to Christ's eternal work on our behalf. 16 Evelyn Underbill, Worship (London: rJisbet and Co., 1937), pp. 57-9. it City of God, X, 6, translated by Gerald Walsh and Grace Monahan (New York: Fathers of the Church, Inc., 1952), p. 127. is Max Thurian, The Eucharistic Memorial; Part II-The New Testament, translated by J. G. Davies (London: Lutterworth, 1961), p. 76.
Worship, then becomes work performed as a natural response, as obedience, and as an offering. When worship is viewed primarily as work done in God's service it has a profound consequence for all of man's work. In worship a bit of our work is offered to God, making it easier for us to realize that in actuality all of our work is performed as service to Him. A part of our work thus represents the whole of it. This means that whatever we do to our fellow man immediately affects our relationship to the divine: It also" indicates that worship gives meaning to our daily work in helping us to see it, too, as an offering to God. Nothing in life is theologically neutral. The priesthood of all believers is realized in one's occupation, whatever it may be; but it is in performing the special work of worship that this becomes clear to us. It is perhaps not entirely by chance that business firms now prefer to refer to themselves as "services." We see firms advertised as,roofing services, typing services, or re-pair services. Exactly the same term is used for worship when we speak of the "morning service" or the "evening service'." In a real sense both are one, for work done in the service of the community or work done in worship are both means of serving God. Worship has profound implications for social responsibility but certainly not by imploring or threatening people to reform their behavior. It goes deeper than this; worship gives meaning to all our work so .that it can be judged in its true light as service of God.
The tradition of approaching worship as an act of work, as has been indicated, is already present in the Bible. Indeed the word used in the New Testament for public work is also used for worship (Acts 13:2). Something of the same idea was preserved in the Church, particularly in the term used for the daily services that the monastic orders performed. These services became known as offices, a term derived from officium (duty, service).
Saying the daily offices was doing the work of worship and this was often referred to as opus Dei, the work of God.
Protestants have long regarded worship primarily as work done. The Catechism of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer lists as a part of man's "duty towards God" the need "to worship him," and the 1928 American version contains the statement, "My bounden duty is to follow Christ, to worship God every Sunday in his Church; and to work and pray and give for the spread of his kingdom." Among Presbyterians the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) likewise laid down the Christian man's obligation to devote time every Sunday to "public and private exercises of his [God's] worship." It is only in comparatively recent times that Protestants have come to look upon worship as primarily concerned with the feelings instead of being a matter of work done in God's service.”
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/24/2003 10:36:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 7/25/2003 6:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | Terry, Thanks for the encouragement, but those other sites were a bit hard to swallow. Many of the non-Christians simply dismissed anything that I had to say, because it wasn't on their intellectual level. They had neither the time nor the patience for someone like me, who hasn't studied the original Greek and Hebrew, and who hasn't learned all the theological and philosophical terms and ideas necessary to understand and refute their arguments. There was also a lot of name-calling, foul language, people posting pornographic images and an overall sense of "no matter what the Christians say, we're simply going to refute them." For me, it was like giving my pearls to swine.
PotOnWheel, What does your name mean, anyhow? Anyway, the document you posted on worship as work troubles me because I'm probably one of the laziest, least motivated people you'll ever know. I have to be dragged kicking and screaming to do anything that takes me away from comfort and leisure. I've probably never actually "gotten into" worship the way some people can. I wish I could but it truly does require some emotional effort on my part. If I don't feel like worshipping, I pretty much just go through the motions. I do it because I have to. I believe that no matter how I feel, I should ascribe worth to God, if to do nothing more than stick it to Satan. And that might be what the author of your article calls work, but I also believe that God really wants our heart to be in it when we're doing it, so then of course it is somewhat reliant upon emotions. God said that we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth. I think the Spirit can work on our hearts to motivate our emotions to be activated in the work of worship.
Tigress
Don't forget the small things. The kite flies because of its tail. -Hawaiian Proverb | | Back to Top | | |
 |  ReasonableDoubt Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 655 | Posted 7/25/2003 2:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | I've heard this argument a lot too - that if God is a perfect, omnimax being, he wants for nothing. So he doesn't need or require worship, right? So why is it the first commandment then? And God throughout the Old Testament states that he is a jealous God- he wants israel to worship him as opposed to other "gods."
I think a distinction can be made between "wanting for worship"- in other words, needy, and therefore not perfect - and requiring the beings He created to give their due respect. It's almost like, a King requiring his subjects to be loyal to him. The King doesn't actually "need" the loyalty, but by virtue of his position, loyalty is required from the subjects.
The argument goes on, then, that God, by being jealous, and petty, and basically saying "worship me or else! " makes him NOT worthy of worship then. But why? THat's one thing this pagan person has not explained, at least, Tigress, you haven't stated his or her reasoning behind it. Just b/c it is repulsive to this person's sense of morality, doesn't mean it is wrong. Why would it be wrong for the creator of the entire universe to require ANYTHING of his creations? I don't think it's wrong for humans to give their due deference to their creator, and if Go d is indeed all powerful, humans are in no position to argue....
You might ask him or her why it is so repulsive to him or her that a perfect, almighty being might require certain things of his creatures. And of course, it is his/her right to be repulsed, and his/her right to choose not to worship, that is fine. I think the best thing is just to get that person to see that your position is a legitimate one, not to see that it is the "Correct" one. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  anole Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 3 | Posted 8/11/2003 4:47 AM (GMT -6) |   | u say "You might ask him or her why it is so repulsive to him or her that a perfect, almighty being might require certain things of his creatures. And of course, it is his/her right to be repulsed, and his/her right to choose not to worship, that is fine. I think the best thing is just to get that person to see that your position is a legitimate one, not to see that it is the "Correct" one."
deserving love, respect, and worship is much different than demanding it. it is not 'wrong' for the omnimax (i like ur term) to demand - but it is clearly unnecessary. since it is unnecessary, the requirement diminishes the supposed omnimax making him less than omnimax; and thus a pretender to perfection. in some ppls minds, only a perfect god deserves worship - the pretenders (and there are many) do not. so, the question is really "is the christian god a pretender?". if he is not, then i doubt he demands to be worshiped. u decide for urself.
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 |  ReasonableDoubt Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 655 | Posted 8/11/2003 5:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Anole, I see what you're saying, and I do believe you've got a point. If God is perfect, and not needy, why does he demand our allegiance? I don't know - does that make him less perfect? You have a point. I would say that perhaps it's not so much of a demand as it is an internal obligation of each person. And if they feel "compelled" by organized religion or whatever, that's not good enough. I think God wants each person to worship him based on each person's conscience and reason, not b/c someone is "forcing" that person to do so. That may not be the "orthodox" position, but there ya go :). | | Back to Top | | |
 |  anole Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 3 | Posted 8/13/2003 12:46 PM (GMT -6) |   | it is a difficult situation to understand - a god who needs. the dilemma is tied up, somehow, in my mind with the requirements put on an interactive god. i mean, what possible reason would a perfect being have for interacting, at any level, with his own creation. in fact, it is very difficult for me to see why a perfect being would even bother with a creation at all. what exactly would be the point? it is not as if he must prove anything.
but here we r. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  ReasonableDoubt Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 655 | Posted 8/13/2003 1:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | | I started a thread in the Theology section addressing what you wrote - I'm going to see if anyone has anything good to contribute. It is admittedly a difficult question. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 8/14/2003 5:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | It seems that the reasoning here for God having created us is as if the only reason God could have done so is because He has a need. Yet, we know God has no needs.) But there are other reasons for God to have created. Forgetting, however, that God created in the context (so very important to remember) of a non-fallen world will cause all kinds of troubles in our thinking.
We are made in the image of God. If I were God, I'd want to create others made in my image; that particular creation would have a chance to experience something of what I experience, of who I am. There'd be no "need" issue, in the sense that I'm incomplete without or needy for my creation; it would be my giving (not receiving) the opportunity to share with my creation what I experience in the context of my image. And this is exactly why we humans demonstrate daily something of the image of God in us toward others, and why rejoice when it blesses them, because we reflect who God is. But there would be a catch! ...
The issue of making mankind was not so that God could demand our worship or our allegiance. Were we to have not fallen, we would have naturally walked in the intended relationship with Him we were supposed to have walked without any interference. There would be no context for God to have demanded our worship or allegiance. It would have been natural for us to have walked with Him in love.
As I have said many times, we are not as free as we think we are. And we weren't any more free before the Fall. We were made to live off God as our life-source. Everything is to be defined in and around what He alone can provide. That's called protection and care and love, not dictatorship. We are not to add anything to God's life-source, live off another's life-source, or live off our own life-source as a means of defining and sustaning our existence. We are not free to do so, and for good reason. But we show how quickly we think otherwise, because we figure that God is demanding of us something He shouldn't demand, and then we redefine and recast the context of such "demands" as a "need" God has. But since we know God doesn't have needs, we dismiss that idea--though we first thought that was why He demands of us--,and we are still, then, trying to figure out why God could possibly want to create us; He has no needs. The logic is faulty because it starts in a faulty context: the Fall. Let us go back to the context of Eden before the Fall before we ask such questions, or we will get nowhere.
We were created to walk in relationship with God and no other, and we would have done so gladly--with admiration for Him who created us and in thanks to Him who loved us. We weren't created to go off on our own and redefine the meaning of life or the Tree of Life; they are all found in Him. More so, we COULDN'T exist in and of ourselves and within our own meaning and purpose for existence. What God made in Hi image is just that: in HIS image, not in our own. The "breath of life" breathed into us says something about how we were created. This is why the church is refered to as the "Body ... of Christ", and not the "Body of itself." So now, in this fallen world, God must "demand" our worship and allegance, or we will die; for He only is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He alone is the Vine. In Him, and only in Him is ... life. BUT ... He has always been these, from the very day of Creation. Thus, we are not as free as we think we are, and we are not able to sustain our existence without Him. It is not His fault if we are so hard-headed in learning this that He must "demand" of us in order to rescue us.
For such great love,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 8/15/2003 5:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Originally posted by Starkman
It seems that the reasoning here for God having created us is as if the only reason God could have done so is because He has a need. Yet, we know God has no needs.) But there are other reasons for God to have created. Forgetting, however, that God created in the context (so very important to remember) of a non-fallen world will cause all kinds of troubles in our thinking.
We are made in the image of God. If I were God, I'd want to create others made in my image; that particular creation would have a chance to experience something of what I experience, of who I am. There'd be no "need" issue, in the sense that I'm incomplete without or needy for my creation; it would be my giving (not receiving) the opportunity to share with my creation what I experience in the context of my image. And this is exactly why we humans demonstrate daily something of the image of God in us toward others, and why rejoice when it blesses them, because we reflect who God is. But there would be a catch! ...
The issue of making mankind was not so that God could demand our worship or our allegiance. Were we to have not fallen, we would have naturally walked in the intended relationship with Him we were supposed to have walked without any interference. There would be no context for God to have demanded our worship or allegiance. It would have been natural for us to have walked with Him in love.
As I have said many times, we are not as free as we think we are. And we weren't any more free before the Fall. We were made to live off God as our life-source. Everything is to be defined in and around what He alone can provide. That's called protection and care and love, not dictatorship. We are not to add anything to God's life-source, live off another's life-source, or live off our own life-source as a means of defining and sustaning our existence. We are not free to do so, and for good reason. But we show how quickly we think otherwise, because we figure that God is demanding of us something He shouldn't demand, and then we redefine and recast the context of such "demands" as a "need" God has. But since we know God doesn't have needs, we dismiss that idea--though we first thought that was why He demands of us--,and we are still, then, trying to figure out why God could possibly want to create us; He has no needs. The logic is faulty because it starts in a faulty context: the Fall. Let us go back to the context of Eden before the Fall before we ask such questions, or we will get nowhere.
We were created to walk in relationship with God and no other, and we would have done so gladly--with admiration for Him who created us and in thanks to Him who loved us. We weren't created to go off on our own and redefine the meaning of life or the Tree of Life; they are all found in Him. More so, we COULDN'T exist in and of ourselves and within our own meaning and purpose for existence. What God made in Hi image is just that: in HIS image, not in our own. The "breath of life" breathed into us says something about how we were created. This is why the church is refered to as the "Body ... of Christ", and not the "Body of itself." So now, in this fallen world, God must "demand" our worship and allegance, or we will die; for He only is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He alone is the Vine. In Him, and only in Him is ... life. BUT ... He has always been these, from the very day of Creation. Thus, we are not as free as we think we are, and we are not able to sustain our existence without Him. It is not His fault if we are so hard-headed in learning this that He must "demand" of us in order to rescue us.
For such great love,
Starkman
Starkman, Brilliant! Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey "Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Starkman Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 1747 | Posted 8/15/2003 9:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Garshk (to quote Popeye)! You're too kind, Tigress! 
Starkman! | | Back to Top | | |
 |  the_rickster Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 19 | Posted 9/12/2003 2:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | tigress-
I didnt finish reading the thread, so if someone already said this, im sorry for being redundant. It seems the person has an assumption that it is wrong to demand/expect worship. First, if there is a being such as the Christian God, it seems that being would be very deserving of worship. Second, worship just means to give reverence, or to -ship - one entitled to worth. If there is a being that Created the universe and continues to sustain that universe moment by moment, they would deserve or are entitled to worth. In other words, If God exists, He deserves worship. So the person's assumption that if a being demands worship he is selfish. God only demands what is right.
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