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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/24/2004 4:30 AM (GMT -6) |   | Just a few days ago, I finally had a real conversation with my Dad about this stuff. My dad has been warped by growing up in a Muslim family and living in a hypocritical so-called Christian culture, and his thinking is always guided by science and logic. So the fact that he was actually interested in what I had to say was pretty amazing.
For some reason, my dad was interested in my trip to the EEM conference. I mentioned some of Greg’s viewpoints on issues with which I knew my dad would totally agree (eg., all the bad stuff people have done in the name of Christianity) as a way to keep him open to dialogue. He seemed pretty impressed that a Christian pastor would say such things, as he holds very negative views of the church. He started asking me questions – something pretty miraculous – like, well what would Greg Boyd say about hell? I tried to answer as best I could – by offering the various viewpoints that different theologians have espoused. And finally I got to the point where I said that most of this stuff is debatable and unknowable, but this we know: we know about God through Jesus.
At this point my dad shocked me by saying, “I’m jealous of people who have faith. I wish I could have faith, but I can’t.” And this pretty much ended our conversation.
So what now? I don’t want to come on too strong to my dad and make him feel that I am pressuring him to believe something he feels he could never believe. But I do feel that I need to say more to him, give him more evidence to support that Jesus was the son of God, and that through Jesus we know God. I can’t fall back on the old standby, “you just have to have faith.”
Of course I have prayed for him – for years and years. And I always choose my words carefully and try to reach him by my actions, not just my words. But I feel I have finally reached a place with my dad where I need to say more.
Some enter into faith blindly, but others require more evidence before we take that leap. What I am asking is this: what kind of evidence do you present to a skeptic to lead him to the point where taking a leap of faith is not so groundless? I’ve read books (The Case for Christ, Letters from a Skeptic, etc.), but my dad’s not ready to hear a lengthy dissertation or engage in a series of conversations. And I am having trouble thinking of ways to distill this stuff into something that would be concise, easy for him to follow, but difficult for him to refute. I am looking for a simple seed to plant in his mind. Does anyone have any ideas? I would appreciate your feedback!
And I would love if you all could pray for him. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 9/24/2004 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, Leila:
I hear you.
As a result of the atrocities that have been perpetrated "In The Name of GOD," my husband struggled nearly all of his adult years with what he viewed as the hypocrisy of Christianity.
How could supposedly loving "Christians" persecute their brothers & sisters in humanity -- because they disagreed in matters of faith?
It created an abyss, a vast and ugly gorge -- that my husband could not find a way across.
I believe that God used Greg Boyd as the 'bridge' to soften my husband's heart.
Greg's teachings liberated my own "in-house" skeptic.
Indeed -- in a recent conversation, my husband remarked, "When I hear Greg preach, I see and hear his Leader. I see JESUS."
Praise the Lord!
My husband was profoundly moved by the ~ CROSS & THE SWORD ~ series.
I've attached the links below -- in case your own "skeptic" might also be able to use these teachings as a bridge, to draw closer to Christ.
And, I will pray for your father...
Peace and blessings,
<><
_________________________________________________________
Re-posted from another thread:
_________________________________________________________
F.Y.I.:
Awesome new series...
======================
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THE CROSS AND THE SWORD:
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Excerpt from April 18, 2004 Study Guide:
SUMMARY:
"[Dr. Boyd] started a short series today on 'The Cross and the Sword.'
The basic distinction we need to learn as Christians who live
'in the world but not of the world' is this: we live in the Kingdom of Darkness but serve the Kingdom of God.
The message was about the different ways these two kingdoms understand the use of power. Because the use of power was the topic, the issue of politics is inevitably involved.
Greg did not propose support for one political agenda or another, but helped us assess how we, as citizens of heaven, are to understand political involvement...."
...(continued in sermon study guide; link attached below).
The four sermons in this series are available at the
Woodland Hills Church website, or through the links attached below.
EXCERPT:
....."Below are resources from our most recent weekend services.
Each week we try to have the previous weekend's sermon and study guide ready by Tuesday at 5:00...."
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NUMBER 1:
• April 18, 2004 – Taking America Back for God? , Greg Boyd – sermon length is 38:44 minutes
Greg questions the slogan "Taking America Back for God" by discussing the differences between the kingdom of this world and the Kingdom of God. As Christians, we are to belong first and foremost to God's Kingdom, yet live under the governments of this world. How does that work?
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SERMON LINKS:
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Audio - 4.43 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-04-18_Boyd_Taking-America-Back-for_God.mp3
*High-Quality Audio - 17.7 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-04-18_Boyd_Taking-America-Back-for-God_64kbps.mp3
Presentation Slides
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-04-18_Boyd_Taking-America-Back-for-God.pdf
Study Guide
• http://www.whchurch.org/whchurch/studyguides/Studyguide.04.04.18.doc
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NUMBER 2:
• April 25, 2004 - The Difference Between the Two Kingdoms, Greg Boyd – sermon length is 43:43 minutes.
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The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world are two very separate things.
One uses the sword (power over) to influence people; the other uses love (power under). To understand this distinction is much easier than letting it affect the way we live. Greg continues to discuss the differences between these kingdoms and how we are to live within the distinction.
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SERMON LINKS:
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Audio - 5.0 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-04-25_Boyd_The-Difference-Between-Two-Kingdoms.mp3
*High-Quality Audio - 20.0 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-04-25_Boyd_The-Difference-Between-Two-Kingdoms_64kbps.mp3
Presentation Slides
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-04-25_Boyd_The-Difference-Between-Two-Kingdoms.pdf
Study Guide
• http://www.whchurch.org/whchurch/studyguides/Studyguide.04.04.25.doc
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NUMBER 3:
• May 2, 2004 – Abortion: A Kingdom of God Approach, Greg Boyd – sermon length is 38:41 minutes.
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The Cross and the Sword series continues with this sermon, which covers
two more consequences of fusing the Kingdom of God with the Kingdom of the World.
To illustrate the damage this can cause, Greg discusses using the Kingdom of God approach with abortion: don't limit ourselves to the options given by the Kingdom of the World, but ascribe unsurpassable worth to others (mother and baby) at cost to ourselves. This is the unique mission of the Kingdom of God, and it's not easy.
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SERMON LINKS:
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Audio - 4.43 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-05-02_Boyd_Abortion-A-Kingdom-of-God-Approach.mp3
*High-Quality Audio - 17.7 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-05-02_Boyd_Abortion-A-Kingdom-of-God-Approach_64kbps.mp3
Presentation Slides
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004
Study Guide:
• http://www.whchurch.org/whchurch/studyguides/Studyguide.04.05.02.doc
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NUMBER 4:
• May 9, 2004 – Is the Church the Guardian of Social Morality?, , Greg Boyd – sermon length is 44:28 minutes
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The Cross and the Sword series is concluded with this sermon, which covers the final effect of failing to distinguish between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world: we Christians begin to see ourselves as the “protectors” and “fixers” of social morality, as the moral standard bearers. But our only job as the body of Christ is to look like Jesus, the one sinless human, who stood in unity with others and met their needs. Greg also addresses the idea that America is a theocracy.
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SERMON LINKS:
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Audio - 5.09 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-05-09_Boyd_Is-the-Church-the-Gardian-of-Social-Morality.mp3
*High-Quality Audio - 20.3 mb
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-05-09_Boyd_Is-the-Church-the-Gardian-of-Social-Morality_64kbps.mp3
Presentation Slides
• http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-05-09_Boyd_Is-the-church-the-Gardian-of-Social-Morality.pdf
Study Guide
• http://www.whchurch.org/whchurch/studyguides/Studyguide.04.05.09.doc
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Source:
• • WOODLAND HILLS CHURCH - Sermons:
http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_26.htm
• • MOST RECENT SERMONS:
http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_173.htm
Enjoy!
<><
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/24/2004 5:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila-
Is your Dad a religous practicing Muslim? Does he prayer 5x a day, attend Mosque, etc. Is he a Sunni? Shi'ite? You guys are from Iran right? So probably Shi'ite.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/24/2004 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
Just a few days ago, I finally had a real conversation with my Dad about this stuff. My dad has been warped by growing up in a Muslim family and living in a hypocritical so-called Christian culture, and his thinking is always guided by science and logic. So the fact that he was actually interested in what I had to say was pretty amazing.
And I would love if you all could pray for him.
Hello Leila,
I have found “Letters from a Skeptic” to be a very helpful tool, I have been giving it to friends and family members with great results. I would suggest (if you haven’t already) to try giving the book to your father. He might not read it right away but he certainly will never read it if he don’t have it. My older sister once gave me a Bible that I never read until many years later. That same Bible was later instrumental in bringing me to the Lord.
I will pray for the Holy Spirit’s guidance to deliver into your father’s life, whatever is needed to help remove his obstacles to Jesus Christ,
Mark
P.S. “The Case for a Creator” by Lee Strobel might help your father with some of the scientific questions he has.
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/24/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the responses. It's always great just to be heard.
Thanks for the references, Mark and Mayflower. I will definitely check out Greg's series for myself. But as far as referring my dad to sermons or books, I don't think he's ready for it. I hope one day he will. I am very careful to trod carefully with him -- he really resists and becomes defensive if he feels someone is trying to coerce him into anything. I think "Letters" and Strobel's books are great in speaking to a lot of skeptics, but they have to be at least somewhat openminded to listening. If you knew my dad, you'd know why I'm afraid to go there with him.
Just to clarify, Tom, my Dad was raised in Iran and moved to the U.S. at age 28. (I was born and raised here as was my mom.) His family were Shi'ites, but he has told me that he was never a believer, even as a young child. He went through the motions of mosque attendance, reading the Koran, etc. but never accepted it. However, his mother, and to a lesser extent his father, were very faithful Muslims.
I think where he is at now is that he has a tenuous belief in God, but views God as a very distant, impersonal creator who couldn't possibly be interested in us humans, just dusts of speck in the vastness of the universe. Yet interestingly he has been known to pray at times of difficulty -- perhaps just reflexively. He sees so much of the harm done in the name of religion and has difficulty looking past that. He doesn't believe in heaven or hell. But while he has never accepted the teachings of Islam, I think it still has to impact his thinking about things on a subconscious level. I also think that one of his stumbling blocks to accepting Jesus would be an explicit rejection of his family's passionately held beliefs.
Hope this clarifies where I'm coming from on this. I'm basically asking what I might say to my dad to help open his mind and heart to seeking -- and believing. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/24/2004 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | That helps, Leila.
I would think Greg's Letters would be the most appropriate thing you could give him (if you were to give him any book). It's a Father/Son thing, in very conversational style, but deals with issues we've all struggled with. Sounds like you Dad might be challenged by it.
May God make you a blessing to him.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 9/24/2004 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree with Tom, give your dad the book. 
You can't be afraid of spooking the horse by showing him water, lead him to it with love. From what you have said he has shown a thirst, let him make the choice to drink from it or not.
Blessings,
Mark
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 9/24/2004 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Leila,
My response is probably not what you're necessarily what you're looking for, but it seems to me that in order for someone to be receptive to the truth of the gospel, the truth of his existential position has to be clear. I'm thinking along the lines of Pascal and Francis Schaffer.
Basically if someone just sees the God question or the "is Jesus the Son of God" question as something that is interesting or somewhat trivial, then they will approach it that way. But if she sees it as the ultimate question in life, they're going to be much more concerned.
I fimly believe that either the Christian God is true, or life is ultimately absurd.... This is how Paul presented it to the Corinthians quote:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
As Dostoyevsky said, "Without God, everything is permitted." Without God, there is no such thing as purpose, beauty, and love. We're all just a bunch of atoms that randomly organized into self consciousness and will one day all burn up and return to nothing.
Even if I thought there was a 50% chance that Christianity was true, i'd try to find out more about it because of the UTTER HOPELESSNESS of a life without God.
There is my $.02
Peace, Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/25/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm still not convinced giving my dad the book would be appropriate. Like I said, he has never been open to talking about this stuff before, so I think the book might be a bit premature. I'm trying to lead him gently now to the point where he might see that belief in Jesus as the Son of God is not simply a matter of blind faith. And hopefully soon our conversations will lead to the point where reading Letters would indeed be appropriate.
Ross, you said:
quote:
As Dostoyevsky said, "Without God, everything is permitted." Without God, there is no such thing as purpose, beauty, and love. We're all just a bunch of atoms that randomly organized into self consciousness and will one day all burn up and return to nothing.
Even if I thought there was a 50% chance that Christianity was true, i'd try to find out more about it because of the UTTER HOPELESSNESS of a life without God.
But many religions have their God; many religions have their worldview in which life is not utterly hopeless. My dad is just fine with his own worldview. So for me, the point is now to get him to explore the Jesus question. He believes in Jesus as a historical fact, but not as the Son of God. I am trying to lead him there by keeping the dialogue open and nonthreatening. And this now is my difficulty. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/26/2004 12:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Leila!
First of all, sorry I lied about getting back to you when I got home!! I've been playing catch up ever since. I promise I haven't forgotten about you. When I received your e-mail, I decided to respond here first. I'll write more personally as soon as I get a chance.
You raise an interesting question regarding your dad. I think it's exciting that he has shared with you as much as he has. His statement “I’m jealous of people who have faith. I wish I could have faith, but I can’t” is very interesting. If it were me, I'd stay with that. I guess I'd ask him something like this "what specifically do you see in people who have faith...that makes you jealous of them?" and just work from there. There must be something in his mind's eye that he sees and wishes he could have. If you can see the same thing (specifically) maybe you can give more direct help... or - just as important - you can laser in on those things in prayer. After all, God is working with you and (as you know) prayer avails :)
I'm actually in a similar dialogue with my dad (is this contagious?) It's weird. I've noticed that whenever I talk to him this sense of urgency arises within me. I get excited and end up sharing more than what is needful (for him) at the time... derailing the significance of the moment. After experiencing many mistakes, I think I'm finally learning how important it is to listen and focus in on exactly what he shares (staying in the moment) and not get too ahead of myself. For us, this has been helpful.
Since my proverbs 23_23 "apologetics-with-a vengeance" days( ), one thing I've learned is that God does not usually operate with the same sense of urgency we do. He is gentle in His approach, He stands at the door and knocks, He woos us to Himself (etc). In other words, good motives and intentions don't usually go far with others when they are coupled with this sense of urgency. I am really trying to guard against this in my own life. Without this sense of urgency, I think we can be much more effective learning to stand alongside a seeker while looking cheek to cheek with her/him at what's puzzling them in the moment.
When we plant seeds - we have to give them time to grow. And I'm sure after meeting you Leila, that you are quite the gardener.
God Bless you,
love,
selah
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 9/26/2004 3:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Leilaquote:
He seemed pretty impressed that a Christian pastor would say such things, as he holds very negative views of the church. He started asking me questions – something pretty miraculous – like, well what would Greg Boyd say about hell?
I agree with the others that the Letters book would be a great doorway. If he already is interested in what Greg Boyd has to say then perhaps he would be even more interested in listening after reading through some of those challenging and thought provoking letters in his book. I have some family members who have grown a bit softer toward God after reading that book -- Greg's answers make sense to those who struggle with some of life's toughest questions... I agree with Selah that we need to be gentle in our approach -- we plant seeds then give them time to grow.
Leilaquote:
I think where he is at now is that he has a tenuous belief in God, but views God as a very distant, impersonal creator who couldn't possibly be interested in us humans, just dusts of speck in the vastness of the universe
Perhaps the best way to lead him into a personal relationship with Jesus is to show him Jesus by your love. I believe the most effective way to reach across to someone is to simply listen and love as it sounds like you are doing.
And of course the best and most important thing to do is to PRAY. My prayers are with you and your dad.
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 9/26/2004 2:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Leila,
I'm certainly no expert on how to share one's faith; however, I know something about struggling with faith in the face of doubt. Anyway, I had some thoughts so I'll go ahead and share them.
From talking to you and reading your posts, it sounds like you and your father have some things in common. It sounds like your dad believes (however tentatively) in God as Creator. Both of you have the same desire for real, authentic faith (he says he wishes he had faith), but neither of you have been able to simply accept the religion experience of others without question--you're both very honest about your own doubts. He sees the harm done by religion in general and it sounds like your experience with religious communities has been somewhat discouraging.
I hear you saying that you want the conversation to continue, but you don't think your father is ready for a bunch of apologetic arguments and materials. I don't know . . . maybe what you have in common could be the basis for a kind of shared journey between the two of you. Your father may not be interested in arguments trying to convince him to become religious or to adopt a particular religion. But he obviously is interested in your life and your journey (for example, his interest in the EEM conference and what you've learned from Dr. Boyd). So maybe you could just continue to look for ways to let him in on your journey. As he sees that the journey is authentic (and not just a pre-text to convince him to adopt a particular Religion), I can't see why he wouldn't want to join the journey. Let the journey take you and him where ever it needs to go.
I don't know how this would or should play out, but maybe it would involve asking a lot of questions. For example, if you have a question in your journey, maybe ask him what he thinks about it. He may have some great insights. (Christians aren't the only ones with great insights.) He may say something that would answer your question better than anyone on this board. You could also ask him more questions about his journey. Why did he reject Islam as a young child? What does he think is preventing him from having faith? I don't think you necessarily have to have all the answers (you don't need to be Greg Boyd, PhD), just a daughter getting to know her father better. And maybe this would lead to him beginning a new journey of his own. At some point he may become interested in the apologetic questions and you'll be able to share with him what's been helpful to you (such as Letters from a Skeptic, etc.). You'll know when the time is right for that.
God bless,
JET
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/26/2004 3:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Leila: I'm still not convinced giving my dad the book would be appropriate. Like I said, he has never been open to talking about this stuff before, so I think the book might be a bit premature. I'm trying to lead him gently now to the point where he might see that belief in Jesus as the Son of God is not simply a matter of blind faith.
Tom: Why feel that getting your Dad to buy into a particular “doctrine” or theological position about Jesus as the Son of God is something you ought to try to move him toward at all (at least now)? With Muslims, my experience is such things come later. This may get me into hot water, but so what. I’ve spent a good part of my life believing it was my calling to get Muslims to believe that Jesus was the Son of God or to believe in the Trinity. That meant endless debates that go nowhere. I found myself winning arguments without moving Muslims any farther down the road toward loving or wanting to relate to Jesus in a personal and supreme way.
Now I try to introduce Jesus to people the way he seemed to introduce himself to people, and it seems to me that Jesus didn’t begin with who he was “theologically.” He just asked people to observe him, hang out with him, watch him. The theological beliefs happened after people got into relationship with him. They followed him, observed his life and teachings, and began to conclude that something special and unique was present in and about Jesus that wasn’t true of anyone else. They found their way THROUGH relationship to Jesus TO believe in the higher beliefs about his person and relation to the Trinity. Many Muslims who are committed, baptized followers of Jesus begin by becoming convinced that Jesus is “Savior,” that somehow God fixed what is wrong with us in this Jesus. They don’t understand or sign onto a lot of theological stuff that’s entailed in that. But as they begin to put their personal trust in Jesus as God’s answer to their need, God’s provision for their salvation, they start to unpack this in relationship to the wider community.
I guess I’m trying to say, don’t worry about “Son of God,” “Trinity,” blah blah blah. There’s much that’s awesome and inviting about Jesus that a person like your father will find endearing and inspiring. Let him discover the bigger stuff later. For now, perhaps he could just observe Jesus. Most Muslims find themselves falling in love with Jesus as they watch and listen to him in the gospels.
Perhaps your Dad ought to just get to know Jesus through the gospels. If he’s not ready for that either, then you’re just left with having to make whatever comments or hints you’re able to.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/27/2004 5:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the responses everyone. You've given me much to think about.
Selah, I think you make a really good point about God not operating with the same sense of urgency that we have. I'm pretty good about not coming on too strong and taking things slowly with my dad, but privately I wonder how much time I have left to discuss these things with him. It's a difficult tension to reconcile. I'd be curious about the conversations you've had with your dad.
Quest, thanks for your response and your prayers.
JET, I think you really picked up on something there. As much as I sometimes hate to admit it, I am a lot like my father, and I also agree with him on a lot of his criticism of religion and Christianity. And I still struggle with a lot of issues, and I still have moments where I wonder if my faith is even real. So I think that maybe I should share my personal journey with him, rather than try to explain doctrine or attempt to convince him of Christ's resurrection, or whatever. I think your idea about asking him about his own faith journey (or lack thereof) might be a good starting point in understanding where he is coming from.
On a practical note, though, my dad is really hard to engage in conversation -- not just about this stuff, but about almost anything. He spends most of his time wrapped up in his own head, and although I never doubted his love for me or my siblings, he has never expressed much interest in really getting to know us. So the challenge is not just in having this particular conversation with him, but in having any meaningful conversation at all. But this is something that absolutely need to do. Thanks for your insight into this.
Tom, so how exactly do you introduce Muslims to Jesus? How do they accept the gospel accounts as true if they don't believe in him as the Son of God? | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/28/2004 2:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
Selah, I'd be curious about the conversations you've had with your dad.
Leila, you'll laugh. Over the past 10 years I've kept in contact with my dad through an occasional lunch, a phone call on his birthday,and a polite card on Father's Day. That pretty much fully describes the extent of our relationship -- up until about a year ago. My dad never used to call or initiated contact with us on his own. He's like that with most of the family. Then, to my surprise, one day out of the blue he wrote an e-mail. It was odd. He just sent some silly story about someone we knew from way back when that he had obviously cut and pasted from another source. There were no salutations. No Hi, no bye...nothin'. After the initial shock, I decided to write back (in response to the story)and next thing I knew we were off and rolling. We've been writing ever since!
As an intro, dad doesn't usually say more than one or two sentences(usually somethihng like "how's the weather up there?"), but then he attaches a "forward" that directly asks a major theological question!
How odd is that? At first, I didn't know what to do. I just stared at it and wondered if he was dying and not telling me or something...
Many days passed before I decided to write back an actual response to the first question in the forward. I knew I was taking a risk when I did it & that he would be freaked out - but I did it anyway. I answered the question quite directly (after saying how interesting the "forward" was and how "that person who wrote it" was thinking about some interesting stuff of course).
He didn't say a word in response, but the forwards KEPT coming. In fact, they have been coming with increased frequency ever since! He still doesn't reply...just sends a new attachment about once a week regarding another theological issue.
It's weird talking to him this way,for sure. Many times I've thought about deleting the e-mail and forgetting about it. I've also wondered if we would ever talk face to face or if he would be able to associate to the thoughts expressed via email one day. Maybe yes, maybe no. Until then, I guess I'll just have to trust that God at work with him in all these things.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/28/2004 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila: Tom, so how exactly do you introduce Muslims to Jesus? How do they accept the gospel accounts as true if they don't believe in him as the Son of God?
Tom: What I’ve found is that some Muslims, many perhaps, accept that Jesus is the unique savior of the world, that God dealt with human sinfulness in Christ on the Cross, and that if they trust in Jesus to save them on this basis then their personal sin problem is addressed. And it is.
But there’s a lot they don’t understand even after becoming convinced that Jesus is savior, that he’s alive, and that he can be trusted personally. Jesus’ being the “Son of God” is one such issue. It’s not that they understand it and reject it. That would be a concern. It’s that they don’t get it; the whole Trinity thing. Am I going to tell them that in spite of understanding and believing that God saves us in Christ, they can’t really benefit from this personally until they understand and confess in the doctrine of divine sonship or the Trinity? I used to think that. I don’t anymore.
All of us agree that SOME beliefs are core to entering, that is, coming to Christ, while SOME beliefs are picked up as people live in community and grow in discipleship. Where we differ is in which beliefs are part of defining what’s necessary to enter, to “get saved,” and which are grown into later. I used to put the doctrine of the “sonship of Christ” in the former. I know put it in the latter. One thing that led me to conclude this was the abject spiritual poverty of historical Christianity in the Middle East. Take your pick, Catholics, Orthodox, and even historical Protestant churches whose members all really do believe that Jesus is the Son of God but who do not have a living relationship with God. It’s just not there.
I’m always concerned about where Muslims who have professed to trust in Christ and to be his followers are with regard to filling out their beliefs. But where there’s solid community and steady discipleship, this happens.
So, how do I introduce Muslims to Jesus? Well, the gospels are a big part of it. But Muslims call into question the integrity of the gospels on the grounds that the Quran teaches that the texts of the Scriptures have been “corrupted” (which the Quran does not in fact claim, but it’s widely believed), so I have to work through that issue. But once they’re reading the accounts and are willing to hear God from the accounts, it’s fun. They often find themselves falling in love with Jesus (his life, miracles, and teachings) in spite of having difficulty with the belief that he is God or God’s Son. So instead of hammering on the traditional high doctrines (Sonship and Trinity), I hammer on the uniqueness of his life, character, and teachings. These have a profound impact on seeking Muslims. And it’s THAT which usually hooks their affections and which ends up leading them to believe Jesus really did die, and die for them. As far as I’m concerned, that constitutes the “deal.” What comes after that is the “journey”!
I don’t know where you Dad is. If he doesn’t consider himself a religious Muslim or religious at all, that doesn’t mean he won’t have the standard Muslim objections and reactions to Jesus being “God’s Son” when THAT is put to him as the goal, as what getting saved is all about—just believing something about Jesus. But Jesus, the man, now there’s an interesting person.
Don’t know if I’m making any sense.
Think of it this way, Leila. Draw a square on a piece of paper. Divide that square into small squares by drawing lines through it up and down, then sideways. So you have a square of cubes, say, four by four. That’s the life of someone who is not in relation to Christ, OK? God wants to fill in every cube and so fill in the entire picture. Does it really matter where God starts coloring in so long as he’s coloring?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 9/28/2004 5:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
I'm still not convinced giving my dad the book would be appropriate. Like I said, he has never been open to talking about this stuff before, so I think the book might be a bit premature. I'm trying to lead him gently now to the point where he might see that belief in Jesus as the Son of God is not simply a matter of blind faith. And hopefully soon our conversations will lead to the point where reading Letters would indeed be appropriate.
Ross, you said:
quote:
As Dostoyevsky said, "Without God, everything is permitted." Without God, there is no such thing as purpose, beauty, and love. We're all just a bunch of atoms that randomly organized into self consciousness and will one day all burn up and return to nothing.
Even if I thought there was a 50% chance that Christianity was true, i'd try to find out more about it because of the UTTER HOPELESSNESS of a life without God.
But many religions have their God; many religions have their worldview in which life is not utterly hopeless. My dad is just fine with his own worldview. So for me, the point is now to get him to explore the Jesus question. He believes in Jesus as a historical fact, but not as the Son of God. I am trying to lead him there by keeping the dialogue open and nonthreatening. And this now is my difficulty.
Hey Leila, et al!
This is so crucial to God's mission. I know a little about sharing with dads. My dad is a minister of 45 years experience...a denominational church leader .. and I still keep hoping to help him get to faith 101. Most people that I talk to think i am just crazy. Especially the ones that know my dad. He has preached literally thousands of sermons, yet by his own words is not a Christian. I'm his 49 year old oldest son and have learned more of what NOT to do than what TO do. I was cut off from any meaningful conversation by making it very plain that I thought his soul was in the balance...headed for Hell. SO, I now do not tell him he's heading there. I try to draw him out and listen to his heart. He's over 70 and I know time is getting shorter. I purpose to admire and respect him while still disagreeing with his doctrines. I ask him to advise me. I ask of how he deals with church members and situations. We talk about the nature of Christ and God. I guess this boils down to my remaining humble. I do know and don't move off of what the Bible says and I do not confront with pointed finger. I always ask folks to pray...for Jack...and the rest of the family. And I pray for other's family's members. Like Leila's dad.
ONe name I haven't seen recommended is Ravi Zacharias...He has small books that are good for gift giving...Jesus and Buddha for example. They are written like plays and are quite interesting. They aren't deep theology but more conversational. His audios are enthralling too. Some people will listen more likely than read. God Bless you as you plant seeds! | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 9/29/2004 2:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah - That is a pretty wild way of communicating with your dad -- but very neat, too, and a reminder that there really is no one-size fits all. Thanks for sharing your story.
Tom, you said: quote:
All of us agree that SOME beliefs are core to entering, that is, coming to Christ, while SOME beliefs are picked up as people live in community and grow in discipleship. Where we differ is in which beliefs are part of defining what’s necessary to enter, to “get saved,” and which are grown into later.
This really is key when witnessing to people -- "what is necessary to enter into relationship with Christ" vs. "what is grown into later." What you said makes sense, and I guess this also highlights a problem I have had in talking to my dad: I don't really know what is important to focus on. But you're right, just convincing someone to assent that Jesus is Son of God is entirely different than being a true follower of Christ. I'll have to think about shifting my focus here to Jesus the man first, and hopefully later, Jesus the savior. Interesting.
I think a lot of my views on this have been confused because of various things I've been told in church. When I first "accepted Christ," I didn't understand what it was I was accepting. I thought of it as just an acknowledgement of an historical fact -- that Jesus died on the cross for me -- and once I agreed that this was true, bam! I was saved and I could go and live however I wanted because I was forgiven. It was not until later that I began to put the pieces together (with no help from the church) to understand what "accepting Christ" is all about.
Barry, thanks for sharing about your struggles with your dad and the book recommendation. And thanks for your prayers. I will pray for you and your dad, too. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/29/2004 3:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila,
I have seen the following phrase responded to in the thread and I think that it is important. quote:
At this point my dad shocked me by saying, “I’m jealous of people who have faith. I wish I could have faith, but I can’t.” And this pretty much ended our conversation.
I agree that you should be loving and kind and do your best to choose to manifest the gospel life within you. Your loving and serving and being kind, however, is not the gospel and you could do that for the rest of your life (which would be good) but never clearly present the truth of eternal life to your father. I don't believe that we "sneak" people into the kingdom through stealth but that we present the message of the gospel to them as clearly as we can, the Holy Spirit giving power to our words, and God opens their ears to hear.
I would point you back to the book of Acts. Look at every single sermon in the book of Acts and you will find the gospel presented and the resurrection highlighted as "proof." Your father desires faith, bring him the proof of the resurrection so that he may believe. We have fallen short of the standard of absolute perfection that God demands. Jesus came and claimed to speak for God Himself, claiming to be God Himself. He spoke audible words that God's love for us was to be expressed in His death on our behalf. His death was sufficient to reconcile us to God and forgive our sins. To prove that His words and His claims regarding the power of His blood were true he predicted His resurrection. If He wasn't raised He was a liar and we are doomed to die in our sins. HE IS RISEN and His words were/are true and are meant for us, even your dad. He can have faith, not because of some blind leap or your love, but because God's love was proven in the resurrection.
Leila, unless this message is given to your father I don't think that you have expressed your love to him as his daughter. This is the only message that we have from God that brings us salvation. I will pray that God grants you strength to preach the message of the gospel boldly as we ought. Eph 6:19,
pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Spen Lake
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/29/2004 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila-
spen has a point. When your Dad said, "I’m jealous of people who have faith. I wish I could have faith, but I can’t” that's a great opporunity! Remind him of it, "Hey Dad, I've been thinking about something you said the other day, you said you were jealous of people who have faith and that you wish you could have faith but that you can't. What exactly are you jealous of? If you really WANT to have faith, what you do feel makes it impossible for you?" See? There's an open door there. He brought it up. Why not follow it up?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 9/29/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | spen said:
quote:
Leila, unless this message is given to your father I don't think that you have expressed your love to him as his daughter.
Sorry. I disagree.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Leila, listen to your heart. There is no need to universalize boldness. I think you're doing the right thing. And I know you love your father.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 9/29/2004 3:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
spen said:
quote:
Leila, unless this message is given to your father I don't think that you have expressed your love to him as his daughter.
Sorry. I disagree.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Leila, listen to your heart. There is no need to universalize boldness. I think you're doing the right thing. And I know you love your father.
love
selah
Paul's actions changed from context to context. To preach the message of the gospel to the Jew, he acted like a Jew. To preach the gospel to the Gentile, he acted like a Gentile and ate non-kosher meats and didn't follow the ceremonial laws. He did all things for the sake of the gospel that by preaching the gospel to every one, some might be saved. Leila, listen to the scriptures which are true for even when our heart comdemns us God is greater than our heart and knows all things. In the gospel he has given you the only and unique message of eternal life.
Paul's freedom was to preach the gospel. Time after time his preaching resulted in some men rejecting and hating the message. They beat him, kicked him out of the synagogue, stoned him, abused him - while he kept preaching the same message. This "uniqueness" and claim of the gospel as the only way of salvation was offensive to both the Jews and the Gentiles. There was no other message, however. This is the only message that brings life. I am not saying to be rude, arrogant, insulting or disrespectful. I am saying that the fulfillment of honoring your father and mother and to love them is expressed in clearly communicating to them the message of the gospel and salvation of God found in the death and proved by the resurrection of Jesus.
Spen Lake
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 9/29/2004 4:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Leila-
You love your father. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you either don't love him or haven't shown him you love him if you don't approach witnessing to him the way they think you should. You have an awesome heart and a healthy mind to go with it. You'll do fine.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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