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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 11/4/2004 12:35 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Is the Bible an end in itself, and not meant to bring me to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that I may enter into Him, that I may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of God Himself in the core and center of my very soul?
Am I in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word?
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 11/5/2004 12:52 AM (GMT -6) | | | Can the gift of God's word take the place of God Himself within me, and the whole course of my life be upset by the monstrous substitution? | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 11/5/2004 1:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Can the gift of God's word take the place of God Himself within me, and the whole course of my life be upset by the monstrous substitution?
I believe that the Word of God is How God has chosen to reveal Himself. It must be believed to have any salvific value and to actually reveal God's saving gospel to our hearts. An academic might be facinated by the words, grammar, and text of the scriptures, understand their meaning, and still not believe and obey them. The Pharisees knew, but did not beleive, the scriptures. They set their own words and traditions above them. This is the reason for the constant statement of Jesus throughout Matthew when He tells them, "You say...I say..." He is contrasting their traditions with the word of God. That their entire system was flaunting the Law they claimed to love is most obvious by their setting aside the genetic requirements for their highest office, the High Priest. Only a descendent of Aaron and then Zadok had the right to this office and then it was for life. Even moral failings were not enough to disqualify one if you look at Eli and his sons. At the time of Jesus the office was shared between Levites. Had Jesus come to take the Civil mantle of Israel, He would have judged them with death. This requirement of being a legitimate son of Aaron with a geneology to prove it was the Law of Moses and they set it aside for their own laws.
John 5
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life...Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/5/2004 5:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Is the Bible an end in itself, and not meant to bring me to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that I may enter into Him, that I may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of God Himself in the core and center of my very soul?
Am I in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word?
Hey Tim,
I think there is a definite danger. We can want to know about God more than wanting to know Him. We can be driven to have all knowledge of the written word and know nothing of the Spirit of God in our heart. We can know enough scripture to have a defense for every thing we do, yet live lives of displeasure before God. Jesus contended with those who were expert teachers of the Law. They would make perfect scores on a bible test...yet they completely failed when the author stood before them. They were so threatened with losing their place of honor and power and influence...that even God's own Son was not important enough to them to give up that place. And certainly the same temptation is here with us daily...to keep our own soul on the throne of our lives, even in being bible experts, rather that yielding that place to the rightful ruler, our King Jesus...yes? | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 11/6/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | I believe that the Word of God is How God has chosen to reveal Himself. - Keith
Is God's redemptive revelation in the Holy Scriptures necessary for me to have saving faith and peace with God . . . Gen 5:24 Hbr 11:5 Jud 1:14
Can I have a manifestation of God, other than through His Bible   | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 11/6/2004 8:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Is the Bible an end in itself, and not meant to bring me to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that I may enter into Him, that I may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of God Himself in the core and center of my very soul?
Am I in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word?
Tim,
You sound like a writer, and perhaps a prose writer at that! I love your question. I believe the answer is found in relationship. Relationship with the Father, and with each other. The Word is but one way that He speaks to us. I believe he is infinitely creative in how He speaks to us; that He speaks in more ways than we can dare imagine.
At times I allow other things to substitute for what is real, and that is my relationship with Him. He alone fills that void. He alone satisfies my deepest longings. We can get caught up in debating what the Word means, without spending time with the "Word". He himself is the Word.
Your question has challenged me personally. I've been caught up in so many things lately, and have left the love of my life behind in the process. Temporarily, but I feel the loss. There is nothing that can substitute for the most important relationship in my life; not family, or church attendance; not friends, or the thing that I love the most in this life. None of them satisfy the way He does.
I know...I'm rambling. I like to see my relationship with Him as a sacred romance. He is the lover of my soul. I am naive enough to believe that you can have a wonderful relationship with Him, without ever having seen the Word of God, or held it in your hands, or had it spoken to you. There is no doubt that He speaks to each of us individually, in ways that are meaningful to us...
The Word is a gift, a guidepost for our lives, and powerful. But, as the Word itself says, "Be ye doers of the Word, not hearers only." We can have all knowledge, and still be like a clanging cymbal. That has been one of the greatest puzzlements of my journey; how someone can sound like the "genuine article" but look like a counterfeit.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, or even if I've answered part of what you were asking, but God has used your question to challenge me.
So, thank you! And, God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/9/2004 8:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Is the Bible an end in itself, and not meant to bring me to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that I may enter into Him, that I may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of God Himself in the core and center of my very soul?
Am I in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word?
Is the Bible "an end in itself"? The Word promises that when we draw near to Him, that He will draw near to us. It is a promise that we can depend on. I've come to understand that there are more ways of drawing near than reading the Word. The Bible says we are to be doers of the Word, not hearers only... I believe as we worship Him, that we are transformed. Our choices transform us. There are many ways to draw near, and experience an intimate relationship with the Father. My way of drawing near may be different than others, and His way of drawing near to me may be completely different than yours. That is not an excuse. We are not to ignore His Word, or each other. His Word is a lamp for us...a guiding light, and it is powerful. But I've seen people (known them) who know the Word, insight out and backwards, but do not exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. That always puzzled me, but it made me realize that we could indeed be hearers, without being transformed. There needs to be more. There needs to be a relationship, one that seeks Him above all else, and responds to the Spirit.
If we do not internalize the Word, and respond to it...we may "lose" the relationship...(going out on a limb here). It is a fascinating question...thought provoking.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/9/2004 9:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Thank you for your post moon_river_j
Should I only know and do what is required of me, through my knowledge of Scripture?
or
Should I know and do what is desired of me, through an intimate relationship with God, confirmed by Scripture?
Micah 6:8  He has shown thee, 'O man, what is good, and what the Lord requires of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God!
I read something interesting today in Dallas Willard's "Spirit of the Disciplines" We are not truly Christlike, until it is hard for us not to respond as Jesus would respond. Your thoughts on that?
Barry, I like what you had to say here...a double Amen to that!
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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cpoteet
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 35
| Posted 12/11/2004 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I believe that the Word of God is How God has chosen to reveal Himself. It must be believed to have any salvific value and to actually reveal God's saving gospel to our hearts.
That's solid!
An apologetics note: I have a big heart for witnessing to Muslims. When confronted with sharing the Gospel with a Muslim, remember the following points:
1) Muslims accept the Bible as the Word of God, but they believe it has been corrupted and the Qur'an is the only reliable source.
quote:
Surah 5:66
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do
When approached with this ask the Muslim the following questions: "So, if God's 0 for 3, why should I believe the Qur'an is different? You realize you are making a statement that makes man more powerful than God?"
2) The Qur'an explicity declares that to be a good Muslim that they must read the Injeel (arabic word for New Testament). So, don't feel intimidated, just hand them an Injeel, and if they say: "it's been corrupted" go to number 1.
quote:
Surah 5:68
Say: O followers of the Book [Qur'an]! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
I wrote an article of the view of Jesus in light of Islam and Judaism: http://www.siolon.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=18
"To confess that God exists, and at the same time to deny that He has foreknowledge of future things, is the most manifest folly."
Augustine | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 12/12/2004 5:39 PM (GMT -6) | |
moon_river_j: We are not truly Christlike, until it is hard for us not to respond as Jesus would respond. Your thoughts on that?
If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples (a learner, pupil) indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Tim: Being someone who follows another's teachings, such as Jesus, is only beneficial; how much I am able to respond as Jesus would respond appears directly related to how clearly I hear and am obedient to my Fathers personal voice as He (Jesus) obviously was, is, and always shall be . . . am not that good, only by God’s grace would I obtain to such a level in my relationship with Him.
However, concerning the word of the Bible, it is not like any other book of text; it can only be understood by the power of God opening my mind. Without God unveiling my mind, I will interpret everything according to "sense" knowledge - according to my five senses.
Knowledge in this world is obtained through my five senses - sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell. This I would term "sense" knowledge.
But I believe the truths or words of the Bible can only be understood by "revelation" knowledge, by God giving me spiritual understanding, by God revealing truth to me by His Spirit (my Fathers personal voice) - and not through my five senses alone. That is what I believe is the difference between "sense" knowledge and "revelation" knowledge.
It's only pudding from here on out 
Imagination projects unreal images out of the mind and seeks to attach reality to them. Faith creates nothing; it simply reckons upon that which is already there. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/13/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tim
moon_river_j: We are not truly Christlike, until it is hard for us not to respond as Jesus would respond. Your thoughts on that?
If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples (a learner, pupil) indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Tim: Being someone who follows another's teachings, such as Jesus, is only beneficial; how much I am able to respond as Jesus would respond appears directly related to how clearly I hear and am obedient to my Fathers personal voice as He (Jesus) obviously was, is, and always shall be . . . am not that good, only by God’s grace would I obtain to such a level in my relationship with Him.
However, concerning the word of the Bible, it is not like any other book of text; it can only be understood by the power of God opening my mind. Without God unveiling my mind, I will interpret everything according to "sense" knowledge - according to my five senses.
Knowledge in this world is obtained through my five senses - sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell. This I would term "sense" knowledge.
But I believe the truths or words of the Bible can only be understood by "revelation" knowledge, by God giving me spiritual understanding, by God revealing truth to me by His Spirit (my Fathers personal voice) - and not through my five senses alone. That is what I believe is the difference between "sense" knowledge and "revelation" knowledge.
It's only pudding from here on out
More and more, I recognize that our ability to respond as Jesus would, to be truly Christlike, is born out of relationship with the Father, time with the Father; there are no "shortcuts." It is not like Jello-instant pudding  You don't just whip it up, and voila! Pudding! It takes time, and energy, and quietness, and sometimes brokenness...but it is worth it!
The logos became flesh and tabernacled among us...a small businessman, and the light of the world - and I choose to follow Him - to make Him the most important relationship in my life - the hub!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/11/2005 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | |
Tim said...
Is the Bible an end in itself, and not meant to bring me to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that I may enter into Him, that I may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of God Himself in the core and center of my very soul?
Am I in real danger of losing God amid the wonders of His Word?
An end in itself? What exactly would it be as an end in itself?
Otherwise, God is quite capable of showing up and getting his points across without a "Bible" in hand. He did it all throughout the Old Testament and a few times in the New Testament. Thus, God's "Word" is not limited to the Bible. He Himself speaks His Word also (unless someone really wants to argue that God cannot show up and speak for Himself).
Whether one as a Christian has any experience at all isn't the issue; that one trusts in the redeeming work of Christ—His life, death and resurrection—is what's demanded of us. "He that loves Me will keep my commandments." This "love" is devotion that requires no experience or feeling, only faith. I do believe, however, that God will show up personally in our lives, but perhaps not always the way we would like Him to do so.
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