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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 12/17/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | I do not (yet) advocate using holy water in prayer ministry, but I am interested in it. Coming from the Protestant side of things, it seems foreign. However, reading many prayer-healers, I see many using this. Do any of you all have expereince, good or bad, with such?
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 12/19/2004 1:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I do not (yet) advocate using holy water in prayer ministry, but I am interested in it. Coming from the Protestant side of things, it seems foreign. However, reading many prayer-healers, I see many using this. Do any of you all have expereince, good or bad, with such?
Barry
Barry,
Where in the New Testament do we find the ministry of itinerent "prayer healers?" Where in the New Testament do we find Christians using "holy water" to accomplish the purposes of God? There is no more "holy water" now that the temple has been fulfilled. Either ALL water is now holy, or NO water is now holy. In any case there is no water that is more holy than any other water.
If you believe in "holy water," what does it look like and how can you recognize the true holy water from the immitation? Is any water that heals "holy" so that is how we know? We find a kind of holy wather in the pool of Bethsaida in which an angel came and stirred it from time to time. In this case it was the action of the angel that gave the water power, not the water itself because not all who bathed were healed.
I suppose that in one sense, the water we are washed with in baptism could be argued to be holy, but it would be what Christ has accomplished (death, burial, resurrection) that is represented by baptism/water, nothing at all in the water itself that would make it holy.
Evangelist Leroy Jenkins can be seen on television promoting his miracle water that he claims will heal you and give you your miracle. He even sells 24--20 ounce bottles of this "miracle" for a $100 donation to his ministry. Rather than giving people miracles this water is literally making people sick.
Water touted as a tonic may make drinkers sick
Ohio prohibits sale of S.C. evangelist's elixir
KEN GARFIELD
Religion Editor
Charlette Observer, Aug. 15, 2003
If evangelist Leroy Jenkins hands you a bottle of his so-called miracle water at his revival today through Sunday at the Charlotte Convention Center, you might want to think twice about letting it pass your lips. The Ohio Department of Agriculture has ordered him to quit distributing the stuff because it was found to have contained a bacteria that can make you sick. Jenkins declined to talk to The Observer Thursday about the water he claims has special healing powers. June Buckingham, his secretary at the ministry office in Columbus, Ohio, wouldn't say whether her boss plans to offer the water for a donation this weekend in Charlotte....
The water is what's at issue.
Melanie Wilt, a spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Agriculture, said Jenkins agreed in late July to quit distributing water bottled from a well on his former Healing Waters Cathedral property in Delaware, Ohio, after the state said it contained coliform bacteria. Coliform comes from human and animal waste. Wilt said a West Virginia woman who drank it in late 2001 took ill. Following the court-ordered agreement, Wilt said her office began looking into whether Jenkins was violating the agreement after an ad was placed in a Columbus (Ohio) newspaper indicating "new miracle healing water" would be available at an upcoming service. Told about possible plans to make water available in Charlotte, Wilt said her office notified federal and N.C. health officials. So-called miracle water has long been a part of the controversial evangelist's MO. At a 1995 tent revival on North Tryon Street, Jenkins told followers that God told him in 1977 to drill a well 100 feet deep. Then he asked the faithful to step right up for the fruits of his labor -- 600 jugs of miracle water he was offering off the back of a truck, all donations welcome. Evelyn Duncan, a 63-year-old retired housekeeper who had open heart surgery, paid $3 for her jug full of hope. "I'm buying it to get healed," she said. "I know it will."
The following is about "Lourdes water" that attests to the power of the cult of Mary.
Lourdeswater.com responds to my query about whether they were in any way affiliated with http://www.0te.com/3/:
Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention. We are not affiliated with this website in any way. Having investigated we find that not only have they copied graphics from our website but also used text where it is to their advantage, confirming your email. Further more they have made fraudulent claims that the water is miraculous and are preying on the weak and ill informed.
Here in Lourdes it is well publicised and every pilgrim is aware that the water has been officially analysed and no healing properties can be attributed to it. Bernadette, on becoming nun at Nevers, gave only a few drops of Lourdes water to the sick, and used to say : "It's faith and prayer which save". She knew that the water which sprang from the Grotto has no special properties and still less any "magic power" to heal disease...
We believe that the water of Lourdes is a symbol of the hope Our Lady brings. She used it during the apparitions to remind us of the words of Jesus; "If anyone thirsts let him come to me. Let the one come and drink who believes in me."
We have taken this matter very seriously as we believe that it not only brings our website into disrepute but also the message of Lourdes. It is in short offensive to every pilgrim and true believer. We have now reported their activities to Spamcop.net and are taking legal advise on the matter. It would be most appreciated if you had the time to report them as well.
All information is found at: http://www.spamcop.net
Once again we thank you for informing us. God be with you always,
Annica Smith
Tuesday, August 5, 2003 2:01 PM
Spen Lake
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2004 3:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen: Where in the New Testament do we find the ministry of itinerent "prayer healers?"
PoW: I have to say that when I scanned both your posts I had a response that matched Spens.
If we don't have a problem with the Church, and can accept all the gifts as being 'in' the church. If we can accept the Church as the beginning of the Kingdom, the breaking in of what will be fuller later...
...THEN we can take "holy water" and look at it as Creation Restored.
My wife is practice reading for church this morning. She just read "Christ conquered sin and death..." Amen! In "Joy to the World" we sing "far as the curse is found.
"Holy Water" should not be looked at just by itself. (Like the itinerent called up too individual a picture at first.) It should be seen within Creation/Fall/Redemption.
January 6th, the Feast of Theophany, the feast that Christmas used to be part of before it got moved into December and separated... the feast that used to commemorate both Christ's BAPTISM and NATIVITY, is a feast that uses water.
So, I'd suggest that you look at the 'CLASSICAL' version of "holy water" and not the free-lance or made-up.
(Here's an ice cross http://www.holytrinityorthodoxchurch.org/images/Theophany%20Ice%20Cross.JPG which seems to me a good indication that they are celebrating and proclaiming the victory of Christ in ALL of creation! Or here: http://www.st-george-pharr-tx.org/theophany.jpg Or here: http://www.holytrinityorthodoxchurch.org/images/Teophany%20at%20the%20Lake.JPG)
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2004 9:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen: I suppose that in one sense, the water we are washed with in baptism could be argued to be holy, but it would be what Christ has accomplished (death, burial, resurrection) that is represented by baptism/water, nothing at all in the water itself that would make it holy.
PoW: In a form of the traditional icon (theology in color) of Christ's baptism there is this 'guy' (and/or "Leviathan!") who symbolizes the fallenness of creation, and, I suppose, the dangers inherent in the fallen world. (Water kills. And baptism is a death with Christ; etc.) What is shown is not that Christ needed baptizing--he didn't. But what is explored--the question is hinted at--is that all Creation, and with that the Jordan River herself was in need of 'baptism.' How poetic but forceful.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2004 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 12/28/2004 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Spen and POW:
The people I read of that like and use "Holy Water" are Leann Payne, Michael Green, and the Francis MacNutt ones. I would ask that before you decide what is right that you read a bit from these folks. They are not "heavy advocates" of this form just saying they have seen the greater power in healing and deliverance when using it and other items we think (I think we do ) strange. My term "prayer-healer" is borrowed. I did not say "itinerant". I'd say Paul and Peter are our examples of human agents of healers. I don't wanna get stuck on terminology. I want to know if you all pray for healing and deliverance and if so, would you consider just trying some holy water? In my circle we use oil lots...but no water or salt!! I say God has answered many prayers among us!!
The Bible often has no direct references to things we in the church accept as well and good. For my ways let the test of godliness not be whether it's named in the word but whether it is protested outright! The Old Testament does talk of holy or censecrated water, salt, oil, and people...yes? So why not have these today?
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 12/29/2004 1:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Hey Spen and POW:
The people I read of that like and use "Holy Water" are Leann Payne, Michael Green, and the Francis MacNutt ones. I would ask that before you decide what is right that you read a bit from these folks. They are not "heavy advocates" of this form just saying they have seen the greater power in healing and deliverance when using it and other items we think (I think we do ) strange. My term "prayer-healer" is borrowed. I did not say "itinerant". I'd say Paul and Peter are our examples of human agents of healers. I don't wanna get stuck on terminology. I want to know if you all pray for healing and deliverance and if so, would you consider just trying some holy water? In my circle we use oil lots...but no water or salt!! I say God has answered many prayers among us!!
The Bible often has no direct references to things we in the church accept as well and good. For my ways let the test of godliness not be whether it's named in the word but whether it is protested outright! The Old Testament does talk of holy or censecrated water, salt, oil, and people...yes? So why not have these today?
Barry
Barry,
I don't doubt the zeal and compassion of men like Francis McNutt, what I doubt is their "holy water." That God may choose to heal someone in answer of their prayers and IN SPITE OF their holy water, who can say. The issue is whether their is any ceremionial holy thing now?
We do find the elders called to anoint the sick with oil in James. I have read commentaries that stated that oil was a common medicine at this time and that this may refer to the concept of elders doing their best for the sick. In any case, we do ask our elders to pray and they anoint with oil because it is written in James. What we don't find in this passage is the concept of "holy oil." There is no mention of the oil being consecrated or specially prepared - it is just oil.
You have freedom to pray with any oil you want to pray with and you have freedom to be baptized in any water that happens to be near (the Jordan isn't necessary or better than the muddy Mississippi). It isn't the water, oil, or externals that are "holy" any more.
God bless you. May the gospel of God be boldly confessed at your church and may yo all be found clothed to be holy as you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ that covers all sins.
I'll miss you.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 12/29/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
[quote]Originally posted by barryatk
Hey Spen and POW:
God bless you. May the gospel of God be boldly confessed at your church and may yo all be found clothed to be holy as you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ that covers all sins.
I'll miss you.
I'll miss all three of you, POW, Spen and Barry (unless we all transfer to the new board, of course). I've grown to appreciate your insights, and have learned so much from my conversations with you, and Spen, I've really done an about face in how I see you. You've stuck with it, asserted yourself at times, courageously shared your convictions, but demonstrated graciousness as well.
God Bless you, (each of you)
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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