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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/7/2005 5:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well this is sparked off by a reference which Mephi made to something in another thread which got me thinking -

What is it about the resurrection which outdoes other miracle claims?
There are plenty of tales out there of occult miracles - levitated pianos, much supernatural knowledge and the like, which I am inclined to believe are true, what is it about the resurrection which somehow trumps all these with there competing claims to revelation and truth? - There is something, I don't know what, but it certainly feels different.
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Reader
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
 
   Posted 3/8/2005 4:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The resurrection is a fundamental cornerstone of the content of Christianity.  No resurrection or no belief in the resurrection = no salvation, no eternal life, and no freedom from sin and its sentence of death.

1 Co 15  Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Romans 10  if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
 
Every single sermon in Acts contains the resurrection.  The resurrection of Christ was not like that of Lazarus or others that God miraculously raised from the dead in their existing body.  These all died again and their bodies decayed.  Christ was raised with a glorified body and ascended into heaven.  He still lives and will live forever, having conquered death for us.  He gave us the promise of life and claimed to be the only legitimate way to God.  (I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No man comes to the Father but by Me). He proved His exclusive claim (no one will be saved without believing in Him and His work) when He predicted His own death and resurrection.
 
I have been reading Thoreau.  He wrote, "The reading which I love best is the scriptures of the several nations, though it happens that I am better acquainted with those of the Hindoos, the Chinese, and the Persian, than of the Hebrews, which I have come to last."  He clarified this in a journal entry in 1850, "I do not prefer one religion or philosophy to another.  I have no sympathy with the bigotry and ignorance which make transient and partial and purile distinctions between one man's faith and another's - as Christian and heathen.  I pray be delivered from narrowness, partiality, exaggeration, bigotry.  To the philosopher all sects, all nations are alike.  I like Brahma, Hari, Buddha, the Great Spirit, as well as God."  Thoreau is inconsistent in that, to believe the other scriptures as well as the Bible, he would have to reject the resurrection as factual and historical (which he did).  He called it "myth" and therefore all scriptures and myth held the same authority for him.  Let the resurrection be considered as the historical factual event that it indeed was and we have the claims of the gospel being exclusive.  The other scriptures become false and/or mythical - they present a false salvation.  Spirituality becomes central instead of historical facts that were conveyed to us by a man claiming to be God.  His words were heard by men and recorded for us to learn and believe.  We know that they are true, not simply mystical feelings or spiritual experiences among many other spiritual experiences, because of the factual resurrection.
 
Thoreau didn't believe in the resurrection and if he didn't change his beliefs before he died then he will be damned for eternity for rejecting Christ and His work.

Post Edited (Reader) : 3/8/2005 3:59:59 PM (GMT-6)

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/8/2005 5:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Reader, thanks for the response

I wasn't really intending to approach this from a within-christianity viewpoint, but taking a kind of devil's advocate position of an outsider looking at many claims for miracles and truth and trying to decide between them
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Reader
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
 
   Posted 3/8/2005 6:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What do you mean by a not-within-Christianity viewpoint? We are not mystics who claim to believe in hidden spiritual revelations as proof of the truth of our faith. We are men who believe in historical and tangible facts witnessed by normal physical men who communicated visible truths and actual words to us - proven as true by a physical and bodily resurrection. Spiritists and mystics seek and claim hidden truth and spiritual experiences. Christianity is first and foremost a belief in the historical facts, historical events and historical promises given objectively by God to men. This was ultimately and most clearly given to men by God as a man.

I still think that the resurrection is to be preached "straight up" and not shimmy shammied around. I think that the resurrection is the basis for Christ's absolute claim of authority - to claim to speak for God Himself as God Himself the very words of the Father. His claim for absolute authority negates and nullifies the claims of others to speak authoritatively for God.

The gods that the pagans believe in, the gods of the mystics and spirituals, the gods of the transcendentalists like Thoreau - all these are exposed as gods that cannot save. Other miracles (even raising others from the dead in their carnal bodies) are as nothing compared to this penultimate expression of God's power over Satan and death.

I find it interesting that this miracle is what the anti-christ attempts to duplicate in "Revelation 13 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; ...he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed." This sounds strikingly like something of a resurrection. We also find that in Revelation 11 God does in fact resurrect his two witnesses after three days and calls them to heaven which seems like some kind of type referring back to the ultimate resurrection. "But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them."
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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/8/2005 7:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote]What do you mean by a not-within-Christianity viewpoint? I meant that the question was meant to be approached without the prior assumption that Christianity is true

And yes, I recognise the origins of our faith and how it works, but the question is 'what makes our miracle claims and claims of revelation superior to those of occult practitioners' - they do claim supernatural happenings along with spiritual revelations, particularly levitated objects/whatever.
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Reader
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 66
 
   Posted 3/9/2005 7:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Mark,

While there certainly are charlatans, I do believe that there are spiritists that can perform supernatural signs.  This is also documented in the book of Exodus in which the magicians of Pharaoah did miracles.  Paul mentions this in Timothy, "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith."  These men opposed Moses with miracles wrought by their gods.  The battle was conclusively won as Moses demonstrated greater miracles, including sending death upon all of their firstborn while the Israelites were protected by the blood of the lamb as a type of what we ourselves hope for.

All the 'holy men" and spiritists die.  Jesus overcame death and ascended to heaven in bodily form.  That is something beyond levitation - it is the ultimate levitation into glory and the presence of the Father.  This miracle of the resurrection and ascention was performed in front of many credible witnesses who were willing to give up all their possessions and even their lives to testify to its validity.  I will be very interested to witness the spiritist or occultist who has so much faith in his supernatural power that he will allow himself to be killed and then resurrect from the dead.  This miracle is something that they cannot do.  Satan may bring death but he does not give life.  Only Jesus is the life and His promise was made certain by His resurrection - a historical and factual event.  He is now sitting bodily in heaven awaiting the time that He will come to gather His own and to execute the wrath of God on all those who refuse to believe in Him and His resurrection.

 


Post Edited (Reader) : 3/9/2005 8:34:29 AM (GMT-6)

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Lee Merrill
booted




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
 
   Posted 3/12/2005 11:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Mark,

markporter said...
'what makes our miracle claims and claims of revelation superior to those of occult practitioners' - they do claim supernatural happenings along with spiritual revelations, particularly levitated objects/whatever.


Moses had that problem!

Exodus 8:7 But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

Only let us notice that they couldn't remove said frogs! So in evaluating ranks of miracles, maybe we can ask if they show us that the power being exercised indicates some ultimate control. Instead of just a few sparklers. Then we read:

Exodus 8:18-19 But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals. The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God."

So there are limits to occult power, God's power goes beyond what they can do, both in the ability to bring these events, and also in the ability to remove them.

But does the resurrection demonstrate power like this? The occult resurrections I have heard of are in the horror stories, with Night of the Living Dead, etc.

So it seems the resurrection is essentially "the finger of God," especially since we can pray to the risen Jesus, and he hears us! Which is another point about God's miracles, they're about relationships, and not about mere power...

Blessings,
Lee


==================================================
"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald)

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 3/26/2005 4:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ok, so essentially we're arguing that the resurrection is the biggest miracle - a resurrection of a dead man is a bigger miracle than floating a piano in mid-air, it demonstrates ultimate control in a way that the second miracle doesn't. How so?
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