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Similitude
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   Posted 6/10/2005 6:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey: I'd agree with this, but I don't see that postmodernism would pose a problem here.

Do you roughly equate postmodernism with anti-intellectualism? Or does your model allow that a person could be both postmodern and anti-anti-intellectual (say that 3 times fast!).

Jeff: I suspect some postmodernists are anti-intellectual and others are not. I'm not sure I completely understand just what postmodernism means, yet. If it means resisting final systematization like that one guy said, I'm all for it. If it denies the reality of a system or denies that induction is the way we move towards systematization, I'm not for it.


wjs

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Similitude
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   Posted 6/10/2005 6:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Speaking of Lincoln's war, here's an interesting book review that showed up  on Lewrockwell.com today (http://www.lewrockwell.com/trask/trask8.html).  It demonstrates, to me, the danger of even defending Lincoln's war.  Here's the last paragraph:

Perhaps the most important question is whether a Christian should draw the sword at all except in self-defense (and by logical extension the defense of one’s neighbor or country). Beyond that, choosing violence is usurping a prerogative of God (defining good, delivering retribution, deciding who lives and who dies). Brown acted upon the doctrine that the moral sublimity of his end purified the choice of his means. The Apostle Paul expressly repudiated such presumption, forbidding us from doing evil that good may come. After Brown was hung (no man more justly, wrote Hawthorne), John Greenleaf Whittier, a non-violent abolitionist, penned the morally beautiful line: "Perish with him the folly/that seeks through evil good." Amen.


wjs

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Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
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   Posted 6/12/2005 10:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In short, I exect that McLaren would answer, "D: none of the above" in regards to Lincoln's war.  Here's an excerpt from More Ready Than You Realize: Evangelism as Dance in the Postmodern Matrix.
For Jesus, there was indeed a time to argue. We see him in debate on many occasions with the religious leaders, for example. But have you ever noticed how "tricky" Jesus is in argument? Think of it like this ...
 
A-B

Let's say "A" represents the position of someone arguing against Jesus, and "B" represents the position this arguer expects Jesus to take. You can pick your issue ... divorce, punishing an immoral person, where true worship should occur, paying taxes to Caesar. But what does Jesus do? Does he respond to the force of A's position with even greater logic and persuasion for position B? No. Time and time again he asks a question or tells a story or in some other way slips out of position B altogether, and raises the whole line of discourse to a new level, moving to position C, as below.
 

Why does he do this? Is it because he is "chicken"—afraid to lose, conflict-averse, too soft for a good-old-fashioned-knock-down-drag-out argument? You'd only ask that question if you didn't know much about Jesus. No, I think he transcends the normal lines of argument for several reasons, including these two:
  1.  Many arguments and questions are not framed in an acceptable way: They make assumptions that are not (from your perspective) valid. If you engage in the argument or answer the question as framed for you, you in a sense legitimize those invalid assumptions. For example, if someone asks you, "You're still drinking too much, aren't you?"—you can't respond to the "too much" and let the "still" stand as an assumption; that is, you can't if you have never, in fact, had the habit of drinking too much. Many times, Jesus will not answer a question or respond to a provocative comment because the whole discussion is not framed in a wise or helpful or accurate way.
  2. Sometimes when reading the Gospels, I sense that Jesus will not answer a question or engage in an argument because he does not want to humiliate his conversation partner. He finds a way to back down, to let the other person seem right or retain some dignity, rather than backing the person into a corner and proving, "No, you're wrong! I'm right! You lose! I win!" Jesus does this for reasons of gentleness and kindness and respect, and also for reasons of persuasion. He knows (as Alice does) that when you put people into a win-lose situation, when you don't give them space to think for themselves, they become less open, not more, to your ideas.
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Similitude
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   Posted 6/12/2005 8:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Corey, I had written a rather long reponse to your post and had to catch a phone call.  I "copied" my reply to the clipboard, but when I got back my internet connection had dropped and my saved text was gone!!  So let me briefly summarize what I was saying.
 
1)  I agree with your bullet points.
2)  I think there is no "one size fits all" way to dialogue with another person.
3)  There is a time to convict and a time to be accomodating to one's sense of dignity, depending on the open-mindedness of one's opponent, amongst OTHER factors.
 
I have a small book on postmodernism.  It claims there at least two kinds of postmodernists.  One type is the skeptical postmodernist who distrusts certainty because of it's role in the abuse of power.  The other is the affirmative postmodernist who sees the inability to know objectively as an opportunity to "construct" new power relationships by creating realities from rhetoric.  Multiculturalism and political correctness were said to be examples of this rhetorical reality construction.
 
I see the latter as contributing to the rise of the very power structures the former should fear.  Especially is this so in a country that has adopted a hate-crime legal philosophy as America has.  The founders believed that government could only punish for actions, not thoughts.  They believed only God had the perogative to punish thoughts.  Today we have a government that has extra-constitutional powers that have been usurped for over 200 years.  That government believes it has the perogative to punish people for hate - which is basically thought crime.
 
I relate to the concerns of the skeptical postmodernist but not for the same reasons.  I don't fear certainty per se.  But I believe man is as sinful as the bible says he is.  The founders of this country seemed certain that there were self-evident God-given rights.  But they also feared the abuse of power.  Madison said:
 
If men were angels, no government would be necessary.  If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.  In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this:  you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
 
The founders attributed the problem of power-abuse to the passions of men, not reason.  The scriptures seem to do the same.  The scripture says that men are hypocritical, which means men are NOT rational as they should be.
 
In short, I think the conservative approach can embrace the strengths of the postmodern approach without denying the legitimacy of certainty of moral and philosophical truths.  And this, because I believe that acts of JUDGEMENT (including the written and spoken word) of others MUST be constrained by those degrees of certitude justified by sound inductive thought, grounded in intuition.   All other certainty, existential or supernatural, has no place in acts (not thoughts) of judgement, in my opinion. 
 
Consequently, Lincoln's war is a quintessential test of how that constraint is played out, epistemologically.  And I agree that McLaren probably takes a kind of "pacifistic" stance, here.  But maybe not for the same reason that I would.  My reason is that there is no inductive argument that I can think of to justify Lincoln's war for a christian, whatever his/her own existential judgement of it might be.
 
 
 
 


wjs

Post Edited (jefscott) : 6/12/2005 9:04:51 PM (GMT-5)

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