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BBBCanada
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   Posted 6/25/2005 8:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Should we ever ridicule other's beliefs?  Are not some beliefs worthy of mockery?  How would Old and New Testament examples fit into our pluralistic age?


Brandon

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Corey
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   Posted 6/25/2005 9:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My short answer is that I want to conform to the image of Christ. I wouldn't want to go beyond what he did in his example. (I do think he was sarcastic in a few places when dealing with the Pharisees.)


 

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Tom
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   Posted 6/26/2005 7:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I recall Elija on Mt. Carmel ridiculing the prophets of Baal, making fun of their "dead" God who might be "off going to the bathroom." Not sure how to fit that it except to say there may be times when it's fair and appropraite to do this sort of thing to get people to "see" the absurdity of their beliefs.

Tom


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Laika
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   Posted 6/26/2005 9:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BBBCanada said...
Should we ever ridicule other's beliefs?  Are not some beliefs worthy of mockery?  How would Old and New Testament examples fit into our pluralistic age?

Their beliefs, NO. 
 
Their country of origin, YES, especially if they have a picture of another country's queen on their 'currency'.
 
 

That's just not right, man.......

hmmm 


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Sahid
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   Posted 6/26/2005 9:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't know if Paul in Galatians was ridiculing beliefs. I just know that people get mad if I talk like that in church.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 6/27/2005 3:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is that who that is Laika?  I always just thought that was some old bat.  Huh...I guess you learn something new everyday.  biggrin
 
I'll be back with a response later today, especially with Tom.  How do you justify going from an Old Testament analogy to application?  I know you weren't sure on it, but just wonder'n.


Brandon

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1Heart
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   Posted 6/27/2005 5:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BBBCanada said...
Should we ever ridicule other's beliefs? Are not some beliefs worthy of mockery? How would Old and New Testament examples fit into our pluralistic age?


Why would, or should I say "should," we ridicule someone's beliefs?

Christians do sad things at times, and in the name of Jesus Christ. How can we win people if we ridicule what they believe? I don't think that's what the apostle Paul was talking about when he said, "I have become all things to all men, in order that I may win some."

Jo-Anne


If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it.

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1Heart
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   Posted 6/27/2005 5:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laika said...
BBBCanada said...


Should we ever ridicule other's beliefs? Are not some beliefs worthy of mockery? How would Old and New Testament examples fit into our pluralistic age?



Their beliefs, NO.



Their country of origin, YES, especially if they have a picture of another country's queen on their 'currency'.



hmmm </p>


Ouch! Quit makin fun of our money, eh? And, by the way, we don't use those 2.00 bills anymore; you've outdated!

Jo-Anne


If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it.

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trosie
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   Posted 6/30/2005 6:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>>Should we ever ridicule other's beliefs?  Are not some beliefs worthy of mockery?  How would Old and New Testament examples fit into our pluralistic age<<
 
Why would we?  Love is kind.  I do not believe that ridicule was the mission of Jesus hence it should not be our mission either.  Jesus did at times set the Pharisee's straight but he did not ridicule them by making a mockery of them.rotfl 
 
My answer:  We are commanded to love and love is kind. I do not believe that it fits within our job description as disciples of Christ to ridicule other people for having differing beliefs.
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Empiressque
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   Posted 7/17/2005 10:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting question. I beg to differ with the idea that Jesus and Paul never mocked the beliefs of others; I think they did. Or maybe we're disagreeing on what "mocking" is. I think it is attacking beliefs by pointing out their absurdity (like "straining a gnat and swallowing a camel" !!).

And I can see some value in it at times. Mocking a belief SYSTEM (as opposed to an individual's beliefs in a personalized way) could have some value if it was the only way to get them thinking and questioning (when everything else has failed) and, here's the kicker, if it was done in love and not with pride or bitterness. Very few people can accomplish that succesfully though. But, for instance, I can see possibly putting up a website that mocks that belief system of Mormonism, pointing out absurdities of the theology, knowing full well it might make people angry. But, if you can get them angry, you get them thinking, and if you get them thinking, they might start to question their beliefs...thereby leading to an encounter with the Truth.

But, this would be far and away the exception, and especially not recommended when dealing with fellow brothers and sisters in a personal way.

Just a thought.

~E+
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BBBCanada
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   Posted 7/18/2005 5:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

So in one corner we have Trosie saying, “No” to ridicule and mocking because love is kind.  In the other corner we have Miss E saying that it is OK to mock beliefs, but we need to be sure what ridiculing or mocking of beliefs really is.  Miss E would say to mock the person’s belief system, but not the person and it depends on how one goes about doing this.  That is we don’t do it in arrogant condescending way as opposed to doing it out of love.

 

And I think you guys see that this kind of question gets to the heart of the differing ways in which we Evangelicals do theology as well as evangelism.  D.A. Carson criticizes post-modern Christianity over this question because post-moderns seem to want to “dialogue” and not offend.  He feels that Christianity is always offensive no matter how nicely you put it because it is exclusionary.  That is, that according to some, God has given us a sense of the absurd and means for us to find some things ridiculous and if we don’t find some things absurd or ridiculous, what does this do to the Gospel and the Christian faith.

 

I would say this.  Jesus embodied and taught parabolic correctives to misappropriations to the law.  These would be described as prophetic and (in the truest OT sense of the term) and "apocalyptic" (in the 2nd Temple Jewish sense of the term).  In these traditional forms of confrontation, "demeaning" is never the performative sense of corrective dialogue or action.  The attitude of prophesis in the tradition that Jesus belongs to is better described as "confrontational," "insistent," and "provocative" such that to say that he was “demeaning” is specious at best.  Jesus role as teacher is bound up in his role as Savior, they are all part of the same eschatological package. The odd tension between Jesus' confrontation of the contemporary Jewish system and His role as Messiah come to a hilt in Matt. 23:37. That verse places Jesus' pointed discourses in the context of God's indefatigable love for Israel, yes, even the ones that begged for His execution.

 

If we take the most ridiculous religious movement in Palestine, the Samaritans, we see in John 4 what Jesus’ attitude was toward such people.  So, guess what?  While you won’t find anything in the records of Jesus demeaning others, we do see that Jesus was in the habit of “telling it like it is” when it came to confronting demonic perversions of nature and theology, but denouncing something manifestly "Satanic" still doesn't strike me as "demeaning." Even looking at Paul, we see that he balances his “sharper speech” with compassion of the Christian faith.  In this way he effectively subverted the very rhetoric that was often "demeaning" in antiquity, so while he may come and visit your town and spar with you verbally, he will travel thousands of miles to bring you cash and risk his life in the process.


Brandon

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 7/18/2005 5:16:12 PM (GMT-5)

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Dragon Chaser
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   Posted 7/19/2005 1:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have the New Testament on tape and I have to admit the passage where Jesus repeatedly yells “You Pharisees! You hypocrites!” is rather entertaining. I would seem to believe that Jesus was extremely frustrated at them because they suppose to be true representatives of God, but obviously they are backwards in their theology. It must have been frustrating for Jesus to have to deal with them, especially considering how self-righteous the Pharisees where. But when it came to the common folk he would never raise his voice but seemed rather pleased to be with them.

With that in mind it’s probably not a problem to scold a fellow Christian whose intensions are to deceive people with a false message. So according to scripture it probably would be your duty to even scold preachers who beg for money and promise you worldly riches for sending donations, for that scenario is reminiscent of the Pharisees.


John R. Heys

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trosie
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   Posted 7/19/2005 4:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

>>So in one corner we have Trosie saying, “No” to ridicule and mocking because love is kind.  In the other corner we have Miss E saying that it is OK to mock beliefs, but we need to be sure what ridiculing or mocking of beliefs really is.  Miss E would say to mock the person’s belief system, but not the person and it depends on how one goes about doing this.  That is we don’t do it in arrogant condescending way as opposed to doing it out of love.<<

If we defined mockery I am sure that we would be in agreement. 

When I think of mockery it is a negative, demeaning word that does not promote life.  The Lifegiver came to this world to bring life abundantly therefore mocking folks for their beliefs... would not have been consistent with the mission of Christ.  Jesus spoke against lies and spoke truth to situations BUT Jesus did not demean people.

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Starkman
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   Posted 7/19/2005 7:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Aside from a postmodern-relative view, when it comes to the question about how we're to treat each other (mentally, physically and spiritually) isn't it common sense that tells us not to ridicule others. Don't we raise our children to not do that? Don't we get upset at others when they do it? This is really a no-brainer matter.

Looking at Elija - he was in total engagement with a group of people who were believing in off-the-wall stuff (though quite adhered to in his day). He wasn't being smug or anything like that. He was simply pushing the buttons that would reveal the incapabilities of the deity his opposers worshiped. And even if he, or anyone else, for that mater, were to literally ridicule, that doesn't mean it's right or acceptable conduct—just because someone in the Bible does something doesn't mean God or we have to endorse it.

It's clear. If you are going to engage someone's belief, then do so, and do so with respect. If that means you have to get a little agressive about it in order to make the point, well, so be it. But don't ridicule a person in doing so, anymore than you wouldn't ridicule the person for anything else in life they do. Point out the absurdity and even stupidity of believing something, but don't ridicule.

I can't see how this is an issue. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Starkman


My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?"  Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?

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