>>The question is: Does it really matter if God exists? <<

Now I'm wondering... outside of what the bible tells us... does it matter what belief in "god" a person holds to and why?  What is the motivation to have a person accept the Christian faith over another belief they may have?  Is the underlying reason to sell them life insurance or is the reason to point them to the true source of their existence?

Personally, I believe people need to make sense out of their existence and have some type of explanation of where this all began whether that be through believing in Atheism, Buddism, Hinduism, Christianity.... So, does it really matter if Jesus Christ exists?  My personal answer is "yes" because he has been the source of my strength and has given me a reason to live.  Does it matter because of life insurance or because of the personal relationship?  For me it is the personal relationship that matters most -- I NEED him!

>>what would you tell this dying woman?  Would you lie to her?<<

Mark, I know that you are waiting for Miss E to respond but I would like to chime in from my own experience in working with hospice patients....  It does not need to be our place to be a message carrier between people.  The person working with the dying patient could simply say that the daughter was contacted and the patient's message was relayed... We then could work with assisting the patient to find inner peace in the dying experience and help her to forgive herself.  

>>Hmmm...what do you find that difficult to accept? Do you feel that people of faith (lay OR professional) should tell the truth at all times regardless of the circumstances? Are you a deontological moralist?<<

There are perhaps times that a person might have to lie but for the most part I would have to say that truth is to be the goal.  When we take the witness stand in the court of law we PLEDGE to tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and NOTHING but the TRUTH. 

I believe we can speak into peoples lives without having to tell a lie yet be able to spare them more hurt.  In the scenario of the dying woman a person can "beat around the bush" in answering her question and then help her to focus on something that will be fruitful and healing.

On the other hand... I believe that if we lived during WWII it would be the most loving thing to do to hide Jews in our home and lie to the Nazi's if we were asked.  Truth is to be the goal but it is relative to the situation.  In the first example there is a way to spare the woman more hurt without having to lie, however in the second example we spare the people hurt through withholding information.

That's my two cents

MephEternal said...
Sparknheart:
I ‘m no professional in the area, but I find it difficult to accept that a person of faith would intentionally lie to someone.

Hmmm...what do you find that difficult to accept? Do you feel that people of faith (lay OR professional) should tell the truth at all times regardless of the circumstances? Are you a deontological moralist?

Interested,

The part of the post that caught my attention was Empiressque saying “of course she would tell the woman what she needed to hear".  Implying she would consciously intentionally lie and not think twice about it, or at least leaving that possibility.  I was just asking for her clarification if this type of lie would be internalized or simply off the cuff.  Let me try and explain my position:

In rare cases maybe a consciously intentional lie is needed to protect truth.  I think Bonhoeffer wrestled with such circumstances and it tore him apart inside.  I pray that none of us ever go through an experience that would force us to make such choices.  Hmm… that brings up the question of what efforts were taken trying to reach Hitler with the truth of God. Did Hitler believe in God’s existence, if so, what impact did it have?  Sorry, maybe that’s another thread.

An example of an off the cuff unconscious lie would be if your child were to get seriously hurt?  I certainly would not pass judgment on someone who lied to comfort their child from going into shock by telling them they were ok, all along knowing they were in critical condition and not ok. I’m cool with it, it’s a natural reaction.  My point is, can’t we make a conscience effort to comfort with the truth of God instead of manmade lies?  Can we find comfort knowing Jesus is there doing his best to bring good out of whatever pain we experience and share that comfort?  Can we express the love of Jesus enough to comfort in most cases instead of using comforting lies?  The politically correct answer might be to keep religion out of it and lie.  Personally I don’t find much comfort in a lie and believe we can find constructive truths to comfort without lying.

The topic of this thread is “does it mater if God exist”.  I think in the hypothetical case of the daughter we find a good example of why it maters if God exist.  Real Truth needs to fall on the ears of the daughter’s heart.  God’s truth, heals, redeems, restores and teaches forgiveness by being forgave.  Dysfunctional families continue to wound each other for generations.   The wounded wound but God can heal wounds of the heart and end the vicious cycle of hurting.  The truth is, in order for reconciliation of the mother and daughter to take place they first need to be reconciled with God.

Are most, if not all, lies rationalized by our subjective intentions of a greater good?  Yes we could rationalize lying to the mother. The daughter is being lied to by Satan, why pass this lie onto the mother, right?   

That’s me 2 cents or maybe my nonsense.

IMHO,

Mark

P.S.

In response to the second part of Ms. E’s post. I think we should find balance with truth and grace. We should learn to differentiate between slaying people with the truth and sugarcoating grace.

Post Edited (sparknheart) : 7/19/2005 2:51:59 PM (GMT-5)

Post Edited (sparknheart) : 7/19/2005 10:18:17 PM (GMT-5)

>>in a situation like the one I've listed where the person is so near their own demise, in such pain, I can see someone lying to her about her daughter's response so that she would go in peace.

To be sure, I wouldn't judge either the person who would or wouldn't lie based on their consciences. That's them and God. As for me, I don't take it to be true that telling the truth is ALWAYS helpful or appropriate. Remember, not telling the truth can be anything from telling any level of lie or withholding important aspects of the truth. Though I do NOT believe that lying is something that should be done most of the time or just to make matters expedient just for the sake of expedience, I also, in no way, believe that being truthful is AT ALL TIMES a good thing.<<

>>Dysfunctional families continue to wound each other for generations. The wounded wound but God can heal wounds of the heart and end the vicious cycle of hurting. The truth is, in order for reconciliation of the mother and daughter to take place they first need to be reconciled with God.<<

Post Edited (Empiressque) : 7/20/2005 11:33:42 PM (GMT-5)