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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 6/28/2005 4:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | | ok, I know tongues has been discussed a bit here before, but i'm not sure that this aspect has been looked at at all. The question is, how does one know when speaking in tongues is 'real' (i.e. God-given) and when it is just the mind doing weird things, afterall the subconscious mind does seem to be able to do rather a lot, especially when one is excitable (as one may well be if in a church context or having had a dramatic encounter with the holy spirit) | | Back to Top | | |
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Asher
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 6/28/2005 10:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I share my thoughts on this not so much as an answer to the topic but to ask for feedback from those who believe in speaking in tongues. Here's been my experience:
I went to Albania as a missionary with a fundamentalist Baptist mission organization. Obviously, at the time, I did not believe in speaking in tongues, though I was not as adamantly against it as most others in my organization. In America, being insulated within fundamentalist Baptist churches I had very little contact with Christians who did speak in tongues, so I was quite surprised when I encountered charismatic Christian missionaries in Albania. They were not just "ignorant" as I had been indoctrinated to believe. They were sincere, friendly, AND scholarly. So, I fellowshipped with them though that was a no-no within my group. Tongues was never pushed on me by any of them, and I didn't really ask many questions about it, though I did order a couple of books on the topic from a charismatic perspective instead of the usual anti-tongues fare I was use to. I arrived at a point of telling God that I was open to whatever He had for me, but did not pursue tongues in particular.
Something I did experience early on in Albania that I think is related is worshipping in Albanian churches via Albanian language praise and worship music. I found tremendous release in worshipping God through Shqip (the Albanian language) though I didn't understand the language yet. When I had learned the language I, of course, still enjoyed singing, but something was gone from it. I didn't really analyse this until later. Understand, that I was treading on dangerous ground with my organization for even having done what little I did, hence the non-analyzation.
Jump forward in time and we had to leave Albania because of a very short civil war, finding us back in America and reporting to our supporting churches. Was that ever a wake up call! We had changed so much in Albania from what we had been a part of in America that we resigned from the mission organization we were with. We did this for a host of reasons...literally, a HOST...but tongues was what all our supporters latched to. I was now a heretic who believed in speaking in tongues and had "changed my mind about the Blessed Holy Spirit" Yeah, they can really lay it on thick 
Anyways, back on track to my tongues related experience...during one of the many afterquakes of the momentous changes we were undergoing, I had a dream.
The dream had no visual content, which was unusual (as far as dreams go) but understandable because in the dream I was praying and worshipping with my eyes closed. My entire being was engaged in praying to God, worshipping Him, and for lack of a better way to describe it, yearning after God. My spirit, mind, emotions, will, and body all united in crying out to God some amalgamation of petitionary prayer, worship, plea for relief. It was like a mounting crescendo, until I reached my limits. What I mean is...I was FULLY engaged with my entire being after God, there was nothing else to give, nothing held back. I had reached MY limit of ability, but there was still something unexpressed, a burden on me that was finding no outlet...well, some outlet was being had, but not enough, I was never going to be able to discharge it because my LIMIT was reached, I had nothing else.
Then, the Holy Spirit revealed Himself in the dream. I mean, in the dream, I just knew that it was the Holy Spirit. And He led me to speak with another tongue. Literally, I followed His lead, but I was actively doing it, I didn't give myself up to some other control, I was still fully engaged with all my ability spirit, soul, and body in calling out to God but now the outlet was enlarged, like an extension of my own ability, like tapping into something that was beyond me, but yet right at home with me, and the burden was discharged. When I awoke, I was so spiritually refreshed it was astounding to me.
Later, while reflecting on this, and on my experience of Shqip singing I came to this thought:
I had so enjoyed singing in Shqip before I understood it because I was able to invest the words with more meaning...maybe I don't mean "more"...the words themselves were not limited, they could be invested with more meaning (by me anyways, since I didn't understand them). Obviously, the value of a language is that the words ARE limited, and so we can understand some approximation of what we are saying to each other. But maybe one aspect of the value of speaking in other tongues is that the limits are taken off, and you can invest the words with whatever it is you need to discharge from your being to God. Maybe.
As an afterword: I still have never spoken in tongues in the traditional sense of what that means, but God has, I believe, led me to something similar that fits and suits me. I'm still open to the traditional way of speaking in tongues, but for now I listen to and sing with Portuguese music, of which I understand only one word, corazon-heart, and I have no interest in learning the language
Rob | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 6/29/2005 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, a few thoughts I might add...
Tongues in scripture is always a known language. That's all the word "tongues" meant then and means now. It's just another way of saying languages. Because of essentially one verse from Paul ("Though I speak with the tongues of angels or of men" I Cor 13), somehow it has been made to believe, then, that the baptisim with the Spirit is in some "heavenly" language. That's simply not the point Paul was making, and it's very bad hermeneutics to create this kind of doctrine from verses like the one I quoted. If we were sitting around talking with the apostles about speaking in tongues, I simply see no reason to believe that they would tell us about about speaking in a heavenly language of some sort. That's just not what "tongues" meant. That isn't to say that there weren't groups back then who had these ecstatic experiences and would chatter, repeat obscure phrases and things like that, but that's not at all what the Bible portrays speaking in tongues as. The people in Acts 2 spoke in languages others could understand but they themselves (those speaking in tongues) did not understand. (By the way, when I refer to the experiences in Acts, I call that the baptism "with" the Spirit. I distinguish the new birth experience from the baptism "with" the Spirit by refering to the new birth as baptisim "in" the Spirit.)
Tongues is the easiest of the "supernatural" gifts to imitate. I can rattle off right now and sound like I'm fully speaking in tongues. It's not hard at all to do, either for me or for many people who aren't even Christians. So...that calls for us to be that much more aware of this phenomena as we witness it and partake in it.
Read the instances in the book of Acts when people speak in tongues. There is no "praying," and there is no, "Well, I just don't know how to pray about this situation in my own language, so I'll pray in tongues." It is always praise to God, a declaration of the great things of God. It is a testimony of something beyond the day-in-day-out. It is a fullness that trancends the understanding of the mind, but it is almost always (in Acts) a proof of something extraordinary and a proof to someone else that something has happened.
Well, Paul makes a feel statements like the verse from I Cor 13, or from Eph where he says "pray in the Spirit," and it's assumed right away, by some folk, that this must mean "pray in your prayer language." Paul says something in I Cor about tongues being something the mind won't understand, and, once again, off we go to with more teaching about how one can pray about things that he doesn't understand, or pray about things he does understand but wants to ensure he prays thoroughly: pray in the "Spirit," one is told is the answer. The answer to living a completely changed and victorious life is by being baptized with the Sprit....we are told. Doctrines like these have been created out of just a few verses, by very sincere people, mind you, and the backing to support this kind of teaching simply is not in scripture. If we are to only go with what the book of Acts lays out, we will find ourselves far more confined in the doctrine of the baptisim of the Spirit than we are in modern day charismatica.
Finally, it isn't that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today. They are. It isn't that there aren't real, genuine experiences of people being baptized with the Spirit. It is far safer, therefore, to obtain first a solid (and practical) understanding of what was going on in scripture when people were baptized with the Spirit. Second, I wouldn't concern myself one way or another about having or not having the experience (if you do not have it). If you desire it, ask God to give it to you, but give it to you in a context that will build up the church, glorify God and lead others to Christ. I admire Asher's post (above), because he shows the truth that is for all, whether one has been baptized with the Spirit in the traditional "speaking in tongues" way or not. The tone of his post reflects the deep, rich experiences one can have by just being committed to Christ, surrending all to Him and giving all to Him. I hate to say it this way, but if 95% of what I've seen that's called "speaking in tongues" is the real experience—and I grew up with this, so I know what I'm talking about—I'll pass and wait for the real thing. I've seen people "taught" how to speak in tongues, I've heard others trying desperately to speak in tongues by imitating someone else. I've heard people do the de-de-de-de-de-de (I don't know, maybe they were stammering as they were speaking in tongues!). On and on it goes. So much so that I've found it better for me to not even pay attention to this phenomena when I'm around, it unless someone's disturbing a church service, fellowship meeing or something like that. And what few times I have heard what I believe was genuinely the Spirit moving upon someone (yeah, I know, how do you tell, right?!), I bow my head in respect before the moving of the Spirit and pay attention. But that's been the exception...at least for me.
One last word. I know what I'm writing here may offend some of our charismatic brothers and sisters. I do NOT mean to belittle you. YOU are precious God's site and you are my brother or sister in Christ. We can all fellowship together with that great commonality. But I do believe that what I've written should be given consideration. It isn't to put down the Sprit, the baptisim with the Spirit or the people who have experienced the baptism. It is only to call us to pay closer attention to what we are doing and how we arrive at our doctrinal beliefs about this subject. It is to call us to pay attention to our emotions and be honest enough to say to ourselves, "Hey, where am I coming from here? What am I really experiencing here?" Heaven knows I had to deal with this directly—I thought I had the experience, but I had to honestly admit to myself that I was manufacturing it. It just wasn't that hard to do. I was sincere, but I was sincerely wrong. I was following the status quo of the church I was a part of. I know, therefore, what all of this means to someone who might be offended, and I want to reiterate: I do not mean to offend. I simply want practical, honesty in dealing with this issue. That's all.
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 6/29/2005 9:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman
(Read the instances in the book of Acts when people speak in tongues. There is no "praying," and there is no, "Well, I just don't know how to pray about this situation in my own language, so I'll pray in tongues." It is always praise to God, a declaration of the great things of God. It is a testimony of something beyond the day-in-day-out. It is a fullness that trancends the understanding of the mind, but it is almost always (in Acts) a proof of something extraordinary and a proof to someone else that something has happened.
Well, Paul makes a feel statements like the verse from I Cor 13, or from Eph where he says "pray in the Spirit," and it's assumed right away, by some folk, that this must mean "pray in your prayer language." Paul says something in I Cor about tongues being something the mind won't understand, and, once again, off we go to with more teaching about how one can pray about things that he doesn't understand, or pray about things he does understand but wants to ensure he prays thoroughly: pray in the "Spirit," one is told is the answer. The answer to living a completely changed and victorious life is by being baptized with the Sprit....we are told. Doctrines like these have been created out of just a few verses, by very sincere people, mind you, and the backing to support this kind of teaching simply is not in scripture. If we are to only go with what the book of Acts lays out, we will find ourselves far more confined in the doctrine of the baptisim of the Spirit than we are in modern day charismatica.)
Ron
While I agree with much of what you said I think your bad experience has clouded your mind to what the scriptures do say in regard to praying in the spirit. The book of Acts is not the whole witness of the apostolic church whereas the apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 12, 13, and 14 delivers corrective teaching to a local assemble where he says:
14:1 Pursue love and be eager for the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit.1 14:3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening,2 encouragement, and consolation. 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 14:5 I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be strengthened.
Notice he says the one speaking in tongues does not speak to people but to God. This may be a matter of semantics but I call speaking to God praying.
14:13 So then, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14:14 If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. 14:15 What should I do?7 I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, but I will also sing praises with my mind. 14:16 Otherwise, if you are praising God with your spirit, how can someone without the gift8 say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 14:17 For you are certainly giving thanks well, but the other person is not strengthened. 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you, 14:19 but in the church I want to speak five words with my mind to instruct others, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Notice he says "if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays". Since you don't think praying in tongues is biblical, notice he says "I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind". Also he says" if you are praising God with your spirit, how can someone without the gift say Amen to your thanksgiving" "For you are certainly giving thanks well" Thanksgiving, prayer, and praise to God are in the same package whether in your known language or in tongues.
When he says"I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all" he just finished teaching that it would be better to speak in a known language among people for their edification unless there was an interpretation than to speak many words in a tongue. So his testimony of speaking in tongues more than you all probably was private communion with God and since he inter uses speaking, praying, praising, ect. I think one would be biblically sound with using the term praying in tongues.. So I think the bible does give witness to praying in tongues, speaking in tongues, singing in tongues, giving thanks in tongues, and praising God in tongues.
So just because charismatics have some teaching you may not agree with in regards to praying in tongues and I would tend to agree with you regarding some of the practices they have regarding tongues but I would also say you have missed the scriptural accounts regarding praying in tongues or in the spirit. I know this has been around the block before and I appreciate your quick, zealous, and courteous defense of your position but praying in the spirit is scriptural. I didn't tag on all the verbage you say the charismatics are promoting as reasons to pray in the spirit just that praying in tongues is biblical, meaning it is explicitly spoken about in the bible as 1 Cor 14 and some of the other scriptures you mentioned.
Quoted the NET Bible
Peace
Ron | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 6/30/2005 1:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey there, rsirkel,
Let me first say that I didn't have a bad experience or anything like that. I simply had to admit one day that what I was practicing was not the genuine baptism with the Spirit. No bad experiences, though. (As a matter of fact, I stated that I have been in the presence of someone speaking in tongues where I felt that it was genuine.)
I think, though, that you are doing exactly what I said many folk tend to do with a few verses Paul gives: turn them into doctrine without considering what might really be going on. Just because Paul says, "I pray with the spirit" does not have to mean he's praying in petition, requests or anything like that, as if he's talking to God about this, that and who knows what else, but he doesn't have the slightest clue as to what he's saying...could be praying about China, could be praying about Barnabas, etc. That's not his point at all. That isn't what he's teaching and it doesn't even make sense to insinuate he means this. Here, look again at the passage from I Cor 14 you quoted (note what I've bolded):
"I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, but I will also sing praises with my mind. 14:16 Otherwise, if you are praising God with your spirit, how can someone without the gift8 say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 14:17 For you are certainly giving thanks well, but the other person is not strengthened.
The issue is clear: it isn't prayer as in petition, but prayer as in praise and thanksgiving. This coincides perfectly with what happened in the book of Acts:
Acts 2:11 - the people outside the room here the 120 speaking the wonderful works of God. There is no petition or other kind of "prayer" going on here.
Acts 10:15 - Peter explains to the other apostles that the Spirit fell upon Cornelius' group just as it has upon them (in Acts 2). I think it is safe to say that what came out of that band of Italians was praise and thanksgiving, as was the case with the 120.
I thought there was another reference to this same effect, but I can't find it at the moment.
Moving on...
You said, since he inter uses speaking, praying, praising, ect. I think one would be biblically sound with using the term praying in tongues. Oh, I'm not against calling it "praying," but I think we should qualify what we mean by the word. That's all.
Here's something else that goes right past most people when they quote I Cor 14:18-19 (I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you, 14:19 but in the church I want to speak five words with my mind to instruct others, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.) How is it that Paul can speak in tongues—I don't care if it's claimed he meant in his private devotions or what have you—more than the Corinthians? How can he do that if speaking in tongues is something that can be done at will (and there isn't a charismatic I've met yet who would say one can't speak in tongues at will)? How can Paul possibly speak in tongues "more" than anyone else in Corinth if all those baptized in the Spirit, who have supposedly received a "prayer language," can speak in tongues as much as they want?
This is one of the tell-tale clues as to how much of what is said to be speaking in tongues is not of the Spirit but is of the emotions or something else. It doesn't help to say that the Spirit has to lead one to speak in tongues, because charismatics constantly and consistently demonstrate that it is whenever they desire that they may speak in tongues..."I'm going to pray about this in the Spirit," they say. Romans 8 is quoted where Paul instructed the Romans to "pray continually in the Spirit" in order to prove the point. So, how, then, can Paul claim to have spoken in tongues more than all of Corinth?
The answer, I believe, is that it can't happen whenever someone wants it to happen. It is a God-given time event that can only happen when God gives it. And the evidence of this is overwhelming when one considers what is so painfully obviously not speaking in tongues—when people do the de-de-de-de-de-de-de repeats or the traditional and popular "Shun-da-la-la" type of glossalia. Then there's the broken-up repeats of the same phrases. (Praying "in the Spirit" apparently doesn't have to have any sense or standard language requirements to be a language. Just repeat or mix up the same words and phrases and bingo, you've got the ability to pray about anything and everything. The same stuff works for any prayer you pray!)
I'm just honest enough to say this "stuff" that wonderful and sincere Christians think is tongues simply isn't. I know that sounds harsh, but I'm by far not the only one who sees this and is bothered by it. As I said, I don't turn my attention to it anymore when I hear it. I just hope that the people who are caught in this will someday see a bit past their emotions, and that God will gently guide them to a deeper truth.
Anyway, Paul's point in I Cor is not to talk about tongues as your one's own personal prayer language—"Don't know what to pray for, just pray in tongues. Want to have a deeper experience of joy, peace and love? Pray in tongues. Want to really pray in the Spirit and not in the flesh? Pray in tongues." I'm sorry, but these were not his teachings.. He was addressing order in the church and tongues happened to be an issue...amazingly! Here are the Corinthians, plutocrats in the gifts, but, as we are talking about, screwing things up. In their case, it was abusing the tongues. In today's case it is creating tongues.
Please, understand, that I am not the least bit bitter toward the charismatic movement. Absolutely not. Both my wife and I have had a charismatic background. It is just I won't just sit back and nod in agreement anymore while my mind is saying, "Gads, this is way off base." If someone disagrees with me, then let's talk about it from scripture. But it isn't doing anybody any good when I just sit quietly because I might offend someone who believes the traditional charismatic doctrines. I'm not going to play "In your face," by all means, but neither am I going to just sit and agree with the stuff that's being taught either.
Furhter, again, I don't mean to imply that the gifts aren't for today and that people out there are not speaking in tongues. It is happening, and I think it's ultra cool when God comes in to a place that intimately...when the gifts are genuine. But for every time that God does this, it seems there are a hundred and one other times it isn't God. I'll never forget being at a Joyce Myers conference. She got done preaching and then called up her "big gun" to teach the crowd how to get baptized with the Spirit. Even my wife, who was steeeeeeped in this stuff back then, got chills up her spine. She knew as well as I did that the real Spirit had just left and horrible teaching (sincere though it may have been) took over. It was pitiful.
Well, if I can get up out of bed in the morning, it will be a miracle!
Take care,
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?Post Edited (Starkman) : 6/30/2005 8:02:09 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 6/30/2005 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Ron,
Ron: But do we agree that praying in tongues is an acceptable term and explicitly in the bible?
Starkman: If by "prayer" we mean all forms of communication with God, then one could say, "I pray in the Spirit," and mean "When I'm baptized/filled with the Spirit, I declare the glories of God and give Him praise and thanksgiving in another language." But do any of us really refer to "I pray" as giving thanks to God and declaring His greatness? I mean, yeah, we do that when we are "in prayer" or in our "prayer time," which encompasses all things, but normally we do not say, "Well, I'm going to go pray," and mean, "I'm going to go give praise and thanksgiving to God. We usually call that praise and worship as distinguished from prayer.
So, technically, we can say "praying in tongues" is biblical, but I hardly ever, if ever, hear anyone refer to that as meaning praise and worship. They mean exactly what they have said: praying (petitioning, asking, talking about something) in tongues, and that's where I think we have a doctrinal problem.
Hey, definitely nice talking with you, too, Ron!
Well, it's off to work I go...
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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markporter
Fire over Oxford
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 7/1/2005 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | | I guess that's true - whether a person is generally walking in step with the spirit or not will lend credence, although it doesn't settle things for sure. | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/26/2005 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | | Hello there, Dragon,
Yeah, experiences can seem really authentic, and add very nice and happy people to the event and you've got a product in many people's minds that just proves the recipe. That can have very tragic results!
It is, once again, as I noted in my previous post, the easiest of all the gifts to forge, mimic and imitate. Anyone can stand up and give an interpretation of the Arabic sounding gibberish and who can say it wasn't God? I mean, as long as the "interpretation" is kosher, in that it says only recognizably right things (e.g., "I am the Lord thy God. I love thee with an everlasting love. Come unto me all ye who labor..."), who can question it? From a Biblical example, however, the "gibberish" part would cause me to question the whole thing right then and there. The Biblical picture is that of people speaking known languages. The interpreter would know the language being spoken, OR the interpreter has been given supernatural understanding of the language being spoken. Either way, NEVER let the atmosphere, the people's smiles or anything else like that cause you to determine the truth of a spiritual event.
As to the event regarding your shoulder, God can heal in the midst of all kinds of crazy situations. Just read the Bible. But, again, that God has healed someone is no proof that the doctrines being taught are accurate. I think that's pretty obvious, but it often goes overlooked.
Glowing eyes, you say? Reminds me of the movie Young Frankenstein—the monster's glowing eyes!
"What's that sound?"
"Were wolf"
"There wolf"
"Why are you talking like that?"
"I thought you wanted to. Suit yourself. I'm easy."
(You'd have to have seen the movie!)
And finally, as to the preacher's revelation about your future, well, take it with a grain of salt. "Behold, thus saith the Lord, thou shalt be a vessel of honor unto me..." Again, it's so easy for sincerity to get mixed up with false spirituality that your best bet is to just ride it out. Plain and simple. Can't be more honest than that.
For testing them there spirits,
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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